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01-01-2007, 01:43 PM
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"Where was God in the holocaust?"
This lecture is by Rabbi Yossef Ben Porat who is a famous Rabbi in Israel. This lecture and others of this kind are broadcast each night in the television in Israel. It's very informative lecture and it sheds light on points that many people aren't aware of them. I'm sorry for the length of it, the lecture is over 80 minutes and so the translation of it. Capital letters are when the lecturer raises his voice. You can watch the video free online here or to download it free each weekday between 06:00-08:00 AM Israeli time here
Good evening! We are talking about this subject, the subject of the holocaust, maybe the most hardest subject and the most comprehensive one. It's hard because of the things that accured and it's comprehensive, very comprehensive because of the historic survey that we need to do in order to understand the issues and because of the vast matters that each year are to be added to the closet of books. Books of researches in many matters and of course it includes many new discoveries and also revolutionary discoveries. We will try to deal only in couple of points. Points that are less known, less discussed. In a book which deals with the subject of the holocaust, a book which was published by the University of Haifa and was written by Boaz Noyman, he raises a very interesting point that I never saw that other researchers emphasize. In the extermination of the Jews in the camps there was a thing that has no precedent in the history in many aspects. Not only in the vast quantity of the people but first and foremost in the method of the treatment. The world is satiated with wars, world war I was a tremendous trauma in the world but everything was carried out in a war way, in emotional way. The passageway to an extermination of the Jews in the camps, in an organized and in sterile method is the difference that characterizes that Jews who were killed, 6 million of them and maybe more, apart of the rest of those that were killed. Because, in world war II about 50 million people were killed in Europe, from many nations, Germany alone 20 million Germans were killed, and also Russians etc. And all of them were killed whilst war activity that was in the world since the dawn of it. The only ones who were killed in that way (the way that he will explain now) were the Jews. But it's known to everybody. Noyman uprights a very interesting point: Who killed the Jews? The Germans built a model in which the German was merely came in touch with the Jew from the transport and onward. "The Germans established units in the name of zonder commando and their duty was to lead the victim to the incinerator, to make sure he will take off his clothes, whilst they deceive him reagarding his destiny, to sort his clothes and his property, to clean the cell and to prepare it for other victims, to uproot the golden teeth, to cut the hear of the dead bodies, everything, everything. The ones who were recruited to this job were the victims themselves, the ones who been transported to the camp, and were destroyed by other victims that replaced them. In this method of extermination, there were occasions in which children had to exterminate their parents. The people of the zonder commando are the typical example for separation between the killer and their victims and to make the victim to someone who helps the killer." The victim is killing himself. Each one of them in his own queue. They created a distance. "Primo Levy wrote that the zonder commando institute was the most satanic from all the crimes of the Nazis. It represents the attempt of the Nazis to deliver the guilt to the victims, and in this method, the Germans rejected the only comfort of the victim to be innocent." The victim kills himself. "All of the connection between the zonder commando to the SS soldiers was made only by the responsible Kapo", that of course was a Jew too. And everything was planned in advance for this method, not to ruin too much the German character, not to bring the Germans to conflicts with blood, horror and children. "Yossef Saker who was a survivor of the zonder commando claimed that he never talked to a German in the camp." All the commandments were delivered by Jews to other Jews until the end. And there was in this method another horrible thing the way of the death. They (Germans) checked many methods until they came to the known one of the gas chambers. Listen carefully how much it's terrible and monstrous: "From the moment that the door of the chamber closed, the last struggle of the victim began, the effect of the gas that brought into the chamber in a can", if you visited in the camps you saw how it was done, there was a window that through it the can was thrown and then close the chamber, "was from downward to upward." The gas is heavier than the air so it started from downward and raised up. "The victim struggled until the last moments of his life to catch a higher position", to breath some air, "In relation to the other victims. HIS STRUGGLE WASN'T AGAINST THE KILLER but against another victim - this is how Dr. Miklos Nistcely who was a physician prisoner who had to do operations in the dead bodies, described it. The bodies weren't placed alongside the wall, but one upon the other. It forced the victims to step on each other in a crazy attempt to avoid the gas, but the gas reached them, what a struggle for life it was there. If only they have been aware to their acts then they would have understand that they step on their wives, their children and their relatives. Their movements were a reflex of an instinct to survive. I've mention that the bodies of the women, the children and the elders were in the bottom and the stronger were up." You should understand what was the aspect of this method. Not only that the victims have killed themselves but also in that last chamber - one instinct climbed on top of the other one, and the stronger upon the weaker and everybody were killed. But even in those last fibrillation they had to be more vicious than animals. There was no precedent to this method in no other place. There wasn't any precedent for that in other place. The Torah is mentioning what will be in the struggles of times of destruction like in the destruction of the first and the second temple, struggles between each other, that mothers will eat their own children. The physician who worked in the camps indeed described what he saw. The writer Ka. Tzetnik, that was his literary name, who been into all this horrible actions, said that people were pushed into "other planet". It wasn't in other planet or in Mars. Much has been written about the reasons for this process. And of course we have different points of view. I went to the origin, to Hitler himself, may his name be erased. In his famous book "Mein Kampf", that was translated to Hebrew, "my struggle", that was published in 2 editions. In this book he planned his dreams and his plan against the Jews and it's interesting what pushed him and he writes it and it was published also in a book in the name of "The documented holocaust", a book which was published by Yad Vashem Museum and translates things from "Mein Kampf". Well gentlemen, Hitler claims that there's a thing that risk very much Germany and the Germans. What is it? He is saying that the Jews took over Russia and turned it to USSR and that the Jews killed 30 million Russians in the revolution. He exaggerated in the number but it doesn't matter. They killed all the Russian elite and kept a primitive nation for them Jews to control over them. They did the revolution. They want to do a revolution all over the world, it's called Internazionale all the workers of the world must unite. This is the main motto of "Mein Kampf". The next country after Russia is Germany, and indeed there was a short rule of the Communists in Germany at that time. And Hiter writes that they (Jews) want to finish you (Germans). The method is to finish the elite in every country and then the Jews could rull all over the world. We all know who did the revolution in Russia. Lenin was only the figure but if you look at the picture of the first politburo you will see everything: the KGB in it's first name: the NKVD. The Jews established all these method. All the take over upon Russia was managed by Trotzky who was the minister of war, he was a genius but very very cruel. He ignored his Judaism and to the Jews and he abused the Russians. Well Gentlemen, Hitler saw that, he presented it and the Germans bought it. Hitler stood behind the things he said and showed documents in his book. It were the Jews who started in Germany the same revolution that they did in Russia with all the eliminations in the elite group in Germany. But if we will go back in time, there is a research and a book of Prof. Moshe Zimerman in the name of "Wilhelm marr the patriarch of Anti-semitism". Maybe you heard about him. He was the one who invented the term "Anti-semitism". And Wilhelm Marr is talking in his book and I can show you other books of all the fathers of the modern anti-semitism - about the gaining control of the Jews upon the life in Germany whilst they pushed away utterly the Germans. I'll read couple of sentences: "The daily free press is closed for us (Germans), you (Jews) knew how to make it to your monopoly. Yes, the holy freedom itself turned to be a Jewish monopoly." And he declared in an unequivocal way and it was that way that the Jews took over all the press, the theatre, the jurisprudence, the economy, the banks, everything. And then Marr, Wilhelm Marr is saying that the Jews also want equal rights. Emancipation. This was the motto of everybody. This was the motto of Shtaker, of Traishtet, this was the motto of everybody. Sages of blessed memory taught us: "When you are in the exile, when you are at the Gentiles - don't push one's way in and of course don't rull over the Gentiles. Don't be arrogant over them. You are in the exile." Dr. Nachum Goldman is saying that the ghetto was created by the Jews themselves and not by the Gentiles. IN EVERY PLACE THAT THE JEWS ARRIVED TO THEY WISHED TO LIVE ALONE, FOR THEMSELVES. The first ghetto was created by Jacob our father when he arrived to Egypt and he said to Pharaoh that he wants to live in the land of Goshen, away from the heart of the city. Not near the palace, not in aristocratic place but only in a place for themselves. This is how the Jews lived always in the countries of the east and in the countries of the west. Cause a Jew needs his territory his synagogue, his mikveh, his Kosher grocery, his modesty AND ABOVE ALL: NOT TO STAND OUT. In this matter the Jew kept his sanctity and his purity. The Gentile didn't see the Jew as a competitor but as someone who helps him to develop the economy. The Jews developed the economy in every place in the world, from Spain to Poland and of course in Germany. Germany was a very withered country until the Jews took it in the hands. But, listen to the proportion: When the Emancipation the equal rights, have started, you should understand Gentlemen, you learned about it in history but I'll tell you other sides of it, wishing for equal rights, struggle for it all the great Rabbis were against Emancipation and against equal rights. "This is not our state, this is not our homeland, we don't want equal rights." The things are written, I don't invent them."We want to be alone." THE GREAT RABBIS SAW IN THE EMANCIPATION AS THE CAUSE TO ASSIMILATION. And we experienced it. When the Jews were in the exile in Egypt we read in the Haggada, we read in the book of Exodus: "And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that generation. And the children of Israel were fruitful, and increased abundantly, and multiplied, and waxed exceeding mighty; and the land was filled with them." They started to assimilate and to become integrated in the Egyptian society. Ezekiel the prophet said that they started to worship idols, they stop to do the ritual circumcision. And what started because of that? The same hate of becoming enslaved, THAT LEAD TO ABUSING, THAT LEAD TO "COME, LET US DEAL WISELY WITH THEM", of the Vanze meeting in Egypt that lead to "'Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river." the extermination of the Jewish nation "lest they multiply", the same process, and it come to pass, that, when there befalleth us any war, they also join themselves unto our enemies, and fight against us, and get them up out of the land." The Jews took control over the Egyptian cities, they took all the main jobs. They are smarther, they are more energetic, they are more decisive, they run the business. It was in the opposite of what Jacob wanted, in the land of Goshen. The book of Psalms said that since they started to enter to the levels of society in Egypt then "He turned their heart to hate his nation." In the portion of Kdoshim in the book of Leviticus it's wreaten: "And have set you apart from the nations, that ye should be mine." The nation of Israel must be separated otherwise there's no essence in his existence. And Rashi (Rabbi Shlomo Yitzchaki) is saying: "If you are separated then you belong to me (God). If not then you belong to Nebuchudnezzar and his friends and what joy have I (God) got in you?" Well, the thing that happened in Egypt for the first time 3500 years ago, repeated itself in different versions in Assyria, in Babylon and in any other places. Yossef Yaabetz, one of the famous of the Jews that were exiled from Spain in 1492, he writes in his book that he will be "telling you information and secrets, and I'll tell you why there was that exile, expulsion." An expulsion that was at 9 in the month of Av in 1492. 300,000 Jews were forced to leave Spain. At that day, 200,000 Jews converted to Christianity because they didn't want to go away, they wanted to stay in the creature comforts. WHY? Yaabetz is saying that we arrived here to Spain 500 years before, we came to Spain from the exile of Babylon. We were poor, not knowing the language, we didn't had any assets. We advanced step by step, we established centers of Torah, we started to advance in our livelihood, we started to put Spain on the map of the world, because Spain was a far-flung and a delay place until the Jews arrived. Yaabetz writes that Holy One Blessed be He helped us in that time and that we succeeded in every area. It's called the golden age of the Judaism in Spain. BUT. In the last time, those successful Jews started to assimilate and God aroused the ruler position Isabella and Ferdinand - against us and this is the reason why they banished us. And it was the same in Portugal. In other words, the graph repeats itself. The Jew arrives as exiled, poor, miserable, he keeps the Torah and it's commandments. Rabbi Meir Simcha Hacohen from Dvirsk is writting in his book "Meshech Chochma" that was published in the 20's of the 20th century, in times that nobody even dreamt about a holocasust by the way, there wasn't anti-semitism in the beginning of the 20th century. The anti-semitism that I describe is of the end of the 19th century. In the beginning of the 20th century there wasn't anti-semitism in Germany, it came in waves. The time is known in history in the name of "The time of self hatred". In this time, the Jews wrote things about themselves that were worst than what their enemies wrote about them, this is how it's described in the history. Rabbi Meir Simcha is writing in his book that in every place that we arrived to, we were whole with ourselves, whole with our faith and whole with our God. We advanced, and then there comes a time and a period that we are already in the society and we want to begin to assimilate and he is writing in his book that today the Jews are saying that Berlin is Jerusalem. And you all familiar with the Reform movement that was established in the beginning of the 19th century, in 1805, that movement erased Jerusalem and Eretz Israel from the prayer books. The Reform movement changed the language from Hebrew to German and in the USA from Hebrew to English and they called their synagogues in the name of "Temples". And they said: "FRANKFURT IS JERUSALEM! BERLIN IS JERUSALEM! This is our temple, the temple will never be built again, we will never come back to Israel and to Jerusalem, it's a fantasy without roots." This is what Rabbi Simcha writes and all of you are familiar with it. But, Rabbi Meir Simcha is saying: "In a short time from now, A MINISTER WILL COME AND HE WILL UPROOT YOU AND YOUR ROOTS and will prove to you that Jerusalem is Jerusalem and Berlin will never be Jerusalem. Because this is how it was in the incidents in the past." Indeed, it's not the time now to lengthen, but I have all the details: Since the Jews got Emancipation, within a very short time, many lands in Berlin moved to their hands, jurisprudence, judges, economy, everything! In a short time! It's against the opinion of the Torah. You have heard about Moshe Mendelson, who is called the "Father of education", all his daughters converted to Christianity, they married Gentiles. His son didn't convert but he baptized his own son, the famous composer Mendelson, that the jealousy in him and the hate to him, made Richard Wagner to write his famous book. This is why we have this famous debate if to play Wagner (in Israel) or not. ALL OF THIS ANTI-SEMITE BOOK OF WAGNER is directed personally at Mendelson. In other words, there was some kind of thing that developed inside Germany in particular. Some kind of development that lead to something that our sages of blessed memory warned us and wrote in the newspapers and spoke in lectures and I can give you other proofs, proofs that everybody that has eyes can see them. When Hitler, may his name be erased, took the lead, in April first 1933 - I'm reading you the authentic document from the book "The documented holocaust" of Yad Vashem, a document that was translated to Hebrew. The name of the document is: "The organization of the boycott of April first - the instructions of the national socialist party". Well, the commandment in all the cities of Germany is to boycott all the shops of the Jews in April first. "Near every shop 2 Gestapo/SS members will stand and will warned the people not to enter the shop, but it's forbidden to hurt the Jews." Those are the commandments. Not to hurt the Jews, not to damage the shops, only an economic boycott. Untill when? Untill a new notification. WHY? "The boycott is a step to defend the German workers." It wasn't spoken about murders, it wasn't spoken about killings, only simple things. The boycott began, I'm quoting from here: "The boycott begins sudden in SATURDAY, April first at 10:00 AM and it will continue as long as the leadership of the party won't tell to stop it." The boycott was total in all of Germany. Not even a one German violated it, and also there wasn't any sabotage, there wasn't any violence as aristocratic Germans should behave. It was. "Paragraph 11: The committees of the boycott are responsible to that that the contest will be carried out while keeping the silence and the complete discipline, even one hair shouldn't fall from the head of a Jew." This is how it was. The boycott was very successful and one day after, they declared that the boycott is stopped. Their trial succeeded. What did we need to see from this? Excuse me, but why it's specifically at Sabbath? The Rabbis have told them (Jews) :"Gentlemen, if you don't want to keep the Sabbath then the Gentile will show you how to keep it. You should understand the hint, there is law and a judge (God)". You want to see another thing? I'll show you. Amongst the first laws there were the laws of Nurnberg that all of you are familiar with. What these "Nurnberg laws" have said? "Each big nation wishes to assimilate the small nation." This is how it was. Very few Jews, who weren't assimilated, were to be left in big Germany at that time. The "Nurnberg laws" came and said these things: "It's forbidden for every Jewish man to marry a non Jewish woman and of course the other way round." It's called: "The law to defend the German blood and the German honor, September 15th 1935. 2: Jews are not allowed to employ in their houses women who are German citizens and have a German blood who are below the age of 45." Do you hear? Not only to marry Germans, it's forbidden for a German woman to be in the house of a Jew. Excuse me, BUT THE GERMANS WROTE IN "NURNBERG LAWS" THE THINGS THAT ARE WRITTEN IN THE SHULCHAN ARUCH. Why the attack against the Nurnberg laws? They didn't say to hit Jews, God forbid, not to take the money of the Jews, here's the quote, here (showing) are all the famous "Nurnberg laws" that people call them "the race laws", excuse me, you been mislead in school, I also was mislead. Do you know what are the race laws of Nurnberg? That a German must not marry a Jewish woman and that a Jew must not marry a German woman. These laws are also written in the Torah. So it's true that we had once a judge in the high court who even was the deputy of the high judge, who said that the Torah is the laws of Nurnberg, maybe few know about who I'm talking. This (showing the book) is all the law, not more and not less, here are the signatures: The Fuhrer, his deputy, the Ministry of the Interior, everybody signed on it. They don't contain any laws of oppression. "HE TURNED THEIR HEART TO HATE HIS NATION." The Germans said: "We don't want that you (Jews) will assimilate in us." This is what written in Psalms. If you will try to get close to the Gentile then he will kick you, the strength of the kick will be in an inverted ratio to the level of nearing. If you won't come to him very near then you will get a small kick, if you will come near then you will get a hard kick. Excuse me, BUT IF NOT THEN THERE WON'T BE ANY JEWISH NATION. God chosed the nation of Israel, and he declared in the Tanach that the nation of Israel will remain even if the stars will fall and even if the cosmos will collapse. He swore. And God have repeated in the Torah, not in acronym and not in numerology but very clear: "If ye walk in my statutes..." If you will be mine (follow my commandments) then I'll be yours forever and nobody will hurt you, I defend you. But, but if you want to fit together with the Gentiles please open the portion of Ki Tavo in the book of Deuteronomy you will suffer from 92 curses. They are counted in a list, until you will be destroyed, until you will be afraid from any fallen leaf. I examined through many years, I did research and I keep researching, all the curses took place. And please pay attention, there's a question that you all familiar with, a very famous question: "WHERE WAS GOD IN THE HOLOCAUST?" Excuse me but he was there, because all the things that he wrote in the Torah took place. He wrote it in advance. He wrote that this and this and this will be. And there was also a general rehearsal: In the book of Ezekiel it's written that after the first destruction, the exile of Babylon, in Babylon, the Jews said that they want to be as all the other nations and that they want to assimilate. They were desperate, broken, smashed, the temple was destroyed, the nation went to the exile, the nation is humiliated, they have said: Where was God when the temple was destroyed? He left us? Then we will left him and will assimilate. This is how the prophet Ezekiel is describing. The feelings of fury and frustration. And God sent the prophet Ezekiel to say to them: "AND THAT WHICH COMETH INTO YOUR shall not be at all; in that ye say: We will be as the nations, as the families of the countries... As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, will I be king over you." In simple language: I'll crush the rebel. It's like in any other country in the world. Half of USA rebelled against Lincoln when he released the slaves in the famous civil war. Lincoln is known as a humanist because he relseased the slaves but he crashed the rebel with blood and sulfur. Like in any other place in the world. AND THEN, exactly then, if you recall, there was the scroll of Esther. Then after the feast of Achashverosh, when the Jews became integrated in the Persian society, in the international society, then arised the Amalekite, the grandfather of Hitler, and received an authorization to annihilate and to destroy, and to slay, and to cause to perish all the nation from a boy to an elder, from baby to a woman - in one day. It was. The final solution of the Jewish nation it was. And we read the scroll of Eshter not too much time ago. We've read what was the formula that saved them, what was the formula. The authorization to annihilate was already decided. There wasn't at that time the security council of the UN and they didn't help to prevent it, nothing. Achashverosh rulled all over the world, and Haman was the Prime Minister. Untill Eshter have said: "Let's repent, gather all the Jews in Shushan the capital", I'm not making it up, "fast 3 days" and you all know the rest of it. You all know the rest of it. When the "Nurnberg laws" were published, THERE WAS A SHOCK. Who were the ones who were in a shock? THE HAREDIM? NO! THE BELIEVERS? NO!, That a Jew isn't allowed to marry a Gentile? Excellent! All the ones who assimilated, those ones who worked 100 years for the moment that they can marry Gentiles and now they aren't allowed to marry Gentiles anymore? Do you know what kind of rebellion was against Hitler when he forbidden to recruit Jews to the German army? You don't have a clue. There was a commandment not to recruit Jews to the Wehrmacht. Here it is, I'll read it to you: "The national representation of the German Jews, Mars 23th 1935, the government of the Reich published in Mars 16th a law to establish the Wehrmacht and Jews aren't allowed to be recruited. 12,000 Jews gave their life for Germany in the first world war and despite this you (Hitler) don't want to recruit us to the army?" Did you understand how it was? Jews are fighting on their right to be part of the German army. Here is (showing) the letter of the committee of the Jewish communities. Jews who were believers were very glad. "What we (Jews) have to do with them (Germans)? What do we have?" They (believer Jews) just searched how to get out of the army of the Gentiles. No! but they (the assimilated Jews) are part of the German nation. You can see the things very clearly. Part of the nation. They (assimilated Jews) have said: "So you (Hitler) declared a law that forbid me to marry a German woman? Where is my freedom of rights?" AFTER THE CRYSTAL NACHT, Rabbi Elchanan Wasserman, who was one of the best students of the Chafetz Chaim, he published articles all over the newspapers. He said: "Gentlemen, you saw the mighty hand, you saw the outstretched arm, you want to see also the fury poured out? Shouldn't you understand by now that it's the hand of God?" The Jew that worked so much to get rid of the Tfilin, to throw away the Tzitzit, to cut the beard and the dreadlocks, to look like a Gentile and suddenly he been told to wear a yellow patch on his clothes, "A Jew you were and a Jew you will be forever. You don't want to wear a Tzitzit? Then you will have to wear a yellow patch, it won't help you. You don't want to be proud at your Judaism but you will stay a Jew." See the things. It's contradict all the things that the nations of the world did when a big nation tried to assimilate the small one. The biggest shock was when I read in the book of Hitler, may his name be erased you are familiar with the debate, the Reforms claimed that Judaism is a religion and not a nation, this is why the Reforms where the biggest enemy of Zionism, because Zionism claimed that Judaism is a nation and not a religion. It's called a problem of double loyalty. Well, the Reforms claimed that they Jews are a religion, the Jewish religion, and they were the rullers in Germany that he (Hitler) is writing in his book: "How could it be that the Jews are a religion, they don't believe in the afterlife, they don't believe in God, how can they say that they are a religion? They are a nation, no doubt about it." You know the way of thinking: "A German who has the religion of Moses"? "A French who has the religion of Moses"? Now I'll quote for you (from the book of Hitler): "You can't describe a religious faith that doesn't believe in the ramining of the soul after the death in any kind of form. How could it be atheists Jewish parties?" Which means that you are not a religion but a nation and if so then get out of here! Don't take over the city. The Reforms created the version of "A German who has the religion of Moses" to give them legitimization. It could be a Catholic, Protestant, Muslim and also a Jew. "It's a religion and not a nationality" (what the reforms have said). Hitler said that he see that you (Jews) aren't religious at all. What kind of religion do you have that doesn't believe in the remaining of the soul? You don't believe in God? The fathers of anti-semitism are writing in the middle of the 19th century that the Jews destroyed their (Germans) culture, they are saying that the Jews taught their teenagers not to believe in God, to live in immorality. It's not moral, it's against our ethics. Who are you (Jews) to interfere in our culture? And Wagner is writing these things in his famous book. I'm telling you now very clearly. I've read the book of Wagner word by word, a book that many people make lots of tumult about it. He doesn't write anything against the Jews. NOT EVEN A ONE WORD! He writes and attacks in a raging fury those Jews who want to masquerade to Germans and are trying to be German culture persons, poets and especially composers and who destroy the German culture from within. BECAUSE HE IS WRITING THAT YOU WERE A JEW AND YOU WILL REMAIN A JEW EVEN IF YOU WILL CONVERT YOUR RELIGION , EVEN IF YOU WILL EVADE, YOU HAVE A JEWISH MENARALITY AND A JEWISH PERSONALITY AND YOU ALWAYS WERE LIKE THIS. IF YOU WILL PLAY LIKE THIS (not try to masquerade) THEN THERE'S NO PROBLEM. He wrote that he doesn't like the Haredim but he isn't afraid of them. He is saying that he is afraid the most from the Reforms WHO CONVERTED THEIR RELIGION BECAUSE THEY ARE COSTUMED. This is what he writes. YOU MENDLESON!, YOU CONVERTED YOUR RELIGION, YOU WERE A JEW, YOU WILL STAY A JEW, Wagner writes that his problem with Mendleson is when Mendleson wants to create GERMAN MUSIC this you won't be able to achieve because you don't have a German pride. For us (Germans) it's a pride to kill, yes. This is how he writes and he is saying that you (Jews) are merciful, so what do you want from us? IT WAS A CULTURE STRUGGLE. "AND HAVE SET YOU APART FROM THE NATIONS, THAT YE SHOULD BE MINE." In the times that we were the nation of God the Gentiles jealoused at us, the Gentiles have learned from us, from where did they learn the Christianity? From where did they learn all their culture? In the dark days of the Middle Ages, 80% of the medical language in the world is written in Hebrew, Hebrew, Hebrew, listen well. The international language of the physicians was Hebrew in square letters. Vazalious, who wrote the first book of Anatomy in the modern medicine in 1640, this book is written in Latin, but the terms are written in Hebrew in square letters in the brackets, like today it's written in brackets in English, and once in German and once in Latin. The nation of Israel, when he keeps himself, when he keeps his honor and when he keeps his identity? He wins the backup of God until the end, "That the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all the nations of the earth." A man who been through the holocaust ASKED ME ONCE: "Tell me, where was God?" I asked him: "Wait a minute and tell me, did you believe in God before the holocaust?" He tells me: "The truth is that I didn't. I was a Socialist, a Marxist." I said to him: "If he wasn't before the holocaust then he wouldn't be also inside the holocaust, so why are you asking where he was?" What the children will do? Started to take stones and to throw them on the head of their father? What can he do? The children are the majority in the house, the father rans out of the home. He rans out of the home, a wolf has come, a lion has come, a robber has come, the world of crime has come, a sadist has come, broke their bones, killed them, tortured them and then the children cried: "FATHER, WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN? HOW DID YOU ALLOW THE SADIST AND TO THE ROBBER AND TO THE KILLER AND TO THE LION AND TO THE SNAKE TO ENTER THE HOUSE?" Which means, dear children, you kicked me out of the house, you threw stones at me, what could I do? Who ask the question: "Where was God?" Only people who don't believe in him. People who did and continue to do everything to prevent from the father to enter the house. The father, the one who established the nation, nurtured him, and kept him 3500 years. So why did you ask where was he? A little common sence. I'm not talking now about a faith, I'm not talking now about fanaticism. You don't believe in God? No problem, but why do you ask where was he? Go the other way and look what God has written. He wrote that if you will kick him out then you will pay a heavy price. "And I will surely hide my face in that day and they shall be devoured." If I (God) won't be then all the wolves will eat you like this (showing with his hand). Which means that I'll hide my face, you don't want me? No problem, I'm not present, and if I'm not present then ALL THE DEFILEMENTS AND ALL THE EVIL PERSONS will come out because they have no fear, but the sentence in the Torah is saying: "And all the nations of the earth shall see that the name of the LORD is called upon thee; and they shall be afraid of thee." They will be afraid of you. But wait a minute, IT'S TRUE THAT THERE WERE JEWS WHO WERE HARDEIM AND HASSIDS AND SAINTLY PERSONS. It's true, of course they were, of course, but what was the majority? What was the majority? There are clear and unequivocal details. A linear graph with a negative slope. Between the 2 world wars, there was such a retreat. KOVNA, a famous city with Torah, with God-fearingness, in 1938, almost everybody were driven to work at Sabbath by busses. It doesn't matter where. You can get the official details from the network of the schools. In Poland, in Germany in Austria, in everywhere. I have everything. Its not the first time. The Rabbi Shach, blessed be his memory, stood 15 years ago on a stage infront of thousands of people, it was written in the title of the newspaper later on. And he said: "I warn you, write it down, a Jew who passed the age of 95 is standing infront of you and he is telling you that there will be a holocaust again, write it down." Rabbis stood and told that 150 years ago: You lauged, you despised, you ridiculed, you said it ain't possible and it (holocaust) was. The Rabbi Shach said: "We are sitting on a barrel of gunpowder with a ticking clock. I don't know when the clock will ring. And even then we didn't know when, we knew it's an explosive. Even a sapper who arrives to dismantle an explosive, he doesn't know when it's going to blow, he is hearing the ticking clock, he see the connected ropes and he knows it's an explosive. He runs a battle against the time." This is what Rabbi Shach have said. But excuse me, these were the words that been told before the holocaust, 200 years before, the holocaust didn't come out of the blue. This is why one of the greatest of the generation, Rabbi Yitzchak Wutner, when he was interviewed to the Jewish Press, he was asked if the Haredi Judaism is accepting the term: holocaust, and he was ansering: "NO! We call it the destruction of the European Judaism." The difference between the terms is this: In the Hebrew language, the word: holocaust is an un expected event, unclear event and unknown event. Boom! Hurricane! A destruction is a progressed event. You see the house with cracks, an engineer is coming and says that if it won't be fixed then the house will collapse. When? One year from now, two years from now, four years from now, you know how it is, it crumbles very slowly. And Rabbi Wutner said it was expected, it's a scenario that was couple of times in the past. Destruction. Hard. Heavy, terrible, that never was in such scale but it's not unexpected. There are formulas. Like a physics engineer or a chemistry engineer or a building engineer can give you a formula, a formula when the TNT will blow, a formula when a building will collapse, when a water tank will blow if there will be this amount of water in it and that amount of atmospheres of pressure in it. There is a regularity in physics. There is also regularity in the world. I'll quote for you from the book which was written by Rosenboim, a very famous book which was translated to many languages in the name of "Hitler A journey to the roots of evil". In page no.32 it's says: "The short blood-soaked presence of the tough Bolshevik regime in Munich, a regime that stood after the social-democrate regime of Aiznar who was killed, that also in it Jewish leaders performed a leading role, the short term Bolshevik regime was known in it's cruelty of the fast executions of couple of right and respected nationalistics who were the sponsors of the party which was known for the future in the name of the Nazi party. All of those things have motivated Lukatch to claim that at least it's possible because the things that turned and consolidate Hitler as a war instigator was that winter." Let's return to the history. Marx have said? You should know: The anti-semite expressions that Marx have written have no other competitor. Franz Kafka been through changes in his life. There is a very famous letter that was found (in his property). In the same period of self hatred and he is writing that he hates the main existence of himself as a Jew. He writes that he hates all the Jews in the world. He writes that IF HE COULD BE ABLE then he would put all the Jews in a drawer like mice and close it until they will all strangled. He will open slightly the drawer to see if some of them are left and then close it to the end. After the years, there was a dramatic change in him and then he writes that he doesn't know who he is. He writes that he isn't a Jew but not a German also. His father baptized him to Christianity when he was a little child. And he writes that he is like a horse who stands on his rear legs and he doesn't have a space to put the front legs. He writes in a later letter that do you know in who he is jealoused at? At a Jewish boy with dreadlocks in Warsaw cause at least he knows who he is. This is what Kafka writes "at least he knows who he is." I (Kafka) don't know who am I. 2-3 generations of people were into this same whirlpool. The Foreign minister of Germany in the first world war Rathenau, who hated Jews and Judaism like no other, he should be more German than German, so what? He wasn't killed? They didn't accuse him that he was the one who striked a knife in the back of the German nation in the humiliated agreement of the first world war? So what? The ones who wanted to assimilate were accepted by others? They (Germans) were knocking on the houses of Germans who were four generation of Germans, Christians, Protestants, they said to them: "Raous! You are a Jew!" And he was saying to them: "Excuse me but I'm a pure German, you missed me with another man." They said to him: "NO!". He was saying: "Even my mother is German and even my father." They were saying: "No, excuse us, but our ministry of the interior found that four generations ago you were a Jew." And they were taken to the camps and a vast majority of them commited suicide, because of the humiliation. It wasn't known at that time that they are going to be killed, they didn't even thought at that time to kill, there wasn't the final solution at that time. But it's a dream that was shattered. This same generation, these people worshipped to the culture, they were part of the German nation and now they are being turn into Jews? A book which was found buried in the soil of Ghetto Terezenshtite, it was written by a man who was in the ghetto and he was through personal processes in the ghetto. For those of you who don't know, the ghetto of Terezenshtite was a ghetto for "tourists", it was a ghetto with nice conditions and when journalists asked the Germans that: "Do you have ghettos or concentration camps cause we heard something about that?" Then the Germans answered to them that the things they heard are nonsence and showed them this ghetto and told them it was a convalescent home. It was a bluff, deception. He was there. He been through personal changes and his book which was written in his hand writing was in a bottle buried in the soil and they found it and it was published. He wasn't aware of Judaism before but through the time he advanced a little bit. He is telling that the ghetto was devided to two. One part was a group of assmiliated ones, WHO CONTINUED TO LICK THE GERMAN BOOT INSIDE THE GHETTO, refused to talk Hebrew, refused to do ritual circumcision to their sons and they were saying: "We were Germans and we will die as Germans." And the other part was a group of Zionists, who did the ritual circumcision and talked Hebrew and they were saying: "We will die but at least we will die as Jews." There weren't religious Jews in this ghetto at all but at least they (Zionists) were proud that they are Jews. But the first group weren't proud AND THE BROTHER OF RATHENAU WAS AMONGST THEM. The brother of the foreign minister. Do you hear this? They were Germans and they will die as Germans. And the ones who couldn't suffer it have committed suicide. By the way, it was a mood to commit suicide in there. The ones who tried to commit suicide received a heavy punishment they were sented to a concentration camp. They (Germans) didn't agree that you do it by yourself, they will do it for you. They will be the ones who will decide when you will die, and not you. You will not decide anything by yourself. This is a fact. "You chosed us amongst all other nations." For what purpose did he choose us? For us to be like French? Like Italians? Like Mongolians? Like Polands? Like Germans? Then there is no necessity in us, we have 70 nations in the world. So what? The Holy One Blessed be He fires at the air for a start. When did the modern anti-semitism has started? After the starting of the assimilation in Germany in the beginning of the 19th century as I've told you before, I just don't want to throw at you too much names and details. All our family was lost in the holocaust, my father didn't had even a cousin. We were a huge family and he saw how all the Jews in the small city were destroyed. I've searched and I keep searching the things that were, till this day, and why the things were. I visit in the new Yad Vashem museum which 40 million Dollars were invested in it, it's amazing, amazing. I searched only for one question and it wasn't there, the word is: Why? Why was the holocaust? It's not written there and they won't answer. "You chosed us amongst all other nations." "And have set you apart from the nations, that ye should be Mine." Well, please remember, in 1819, there is what's known in history as the pogroms of Hep-Hep. Herzl writes in his diary that when he was a student in Vienna, other students shouted at him: "Hep-Hep" and then he called them for a duel. What's Hep-Hep? Untill today there are couple of opinions. Prof. Yaakov Katz wrote a research about it and he says it's a shame word for pigs, it doesn't matter. WELL, WHAT WAS THE STORY? It's a very famous incident, it's called "the first pogrom in the modern time". Prof. Katz researched a lot about it and published a complete study about it, and he came to the root of it. Well, in a small city in Germany, couple of Jews came to sit in a coffee shop with Gentile girls. The German boys told them that they will not allow them to start with the German girls and told them to get out of the place and that they should go back to the Jews. The Jews have asked them why? They told the Germans that they have Emancipation and that they can sit everywhere they want and they want to sit in a coffee shop with the Gentiles and they don't want these Germans to bother them Jews. Well, well, the Germans took couple of sticks, started to break the bones of the Jews, the Jews ran away, the Germans after them, the Jews got inside the houses, the Germans broke into their houses, broke the windows and it was like a fire in a field in 26 cities. Hep-Hep. So you see about what it was? About what it was? "And have set you apart from the nations." Shooting in the air. The things are written very clearly without embellishment. Our father in law who has been in the holocaust have said: "You should know - he was a smart man - that if the holocaust wouldn't happened then there wouldn't be one Jewish believer in the world." He told me: "You don't have a clue, small towns that were with Yehsivas, the Yeshiva students were target for ridicule, the only Yeshiva students were from villages, from villages. The only competition was who make fun of more than the others and who fight them more than the others." The Bond organization, maybe you heard about it, 600,000 people in Poland. The headlines in their newspapers were: "Hit the Haredim, the Haredim are our disaster." It doesn't matter if it's Communism or Budahism, these are anti, those are anti or all the other movements in other names, the only common denominator was to uproot the religion, to erase the name of God. I'm not talking about the Communism that called the Jews Yibsesca - Yibreya. I'm talking now about western Europe, about Poland. And that same question "Where was God?" is written in the Midrash of Lamentations about the book of Lamentations that was written by prophet Jeremiah in the destruction of the first temple. And the Midrash which appears in a lamentation in the book of lamentations that is read in 9 in Av and the prophet is saying there: "You ask what God did and you don't ask what you did? Are you covering it up?" It's like someone will shout that the policeman hit him so the judge ask him: "What did you do before? Did the policeman came out of the blue? You tried to rob a bank, you tried to kill someone, the policeman used lamentation force. What do you want? The policeman didn't had any other opertunity." The prophet says that he did what he promised to do. It returns itself in the first temple and also in the second temple, you all know it. The things didn't came out of the blue. You can see for yourself in the Tanach, the first temple was destroyed because of idolatry, bloodshed and incest, and the destruction came. And what amazes me is the thing I've queting from this book to you. The Jews turn the things that way that the criminals did these things that are written: "Rejected the only comfort of the victim to be innocent." They (Germans) have destroyed the ego, "you will be a killer, you will be the Kapo, you will be the Zonder, you will be everything, and we the Germans will remain those who give the commandments from a distance." May their name be erase. And then a theory came that UNTIL TODAY nobody understands how serious persons, science persons, could have believed in this theory. It is the "Race theory". I don't know who amongst of you read it. In the most famous University in the world, the Univeristy of Gottingen that Albert Einstein and all the great physicists in the world were in, in that University the race theory was developed. There were long ledges, kilometers of them with tens of thousands of skulls that they measured the length and the width and the proportions and by that they decided what race they are, if they are sub race or a super race. People believed in this, it must be clear to you, they decided about formulas. Although the joke in Berlin was that almost all the members in the government of Hitler have faces of Jews, upon those same formulas/proportions. A joke separately, a reality separately. How they believed in this? It's not foolishness but absolute nothing. IT'S NONSENCE! But they believed in this. And I will tell you shortly about this theory. This theory is saying that not only that it's permitted to kill Jews but it's a commandment and a duty to kill them, because in the evolutionary process all the Nazism could have builted only upon the theory of Darwin, a theory which built the pyramid of the sophistication of the mankind and the genealogy that the strong eats the wick and you know it, you learned it in school, that the strong animals and the strong humans are remaining and the race is through process of enhancement like any other creature on earth, from the plants etc. So the lofty race that the Nazis decided that this race came from India, the Hindu-European race who they called them the Aryans, they said that they came from India, they are THE race. The elite. Super race. There are simple races, there are sub races and the Jews aren't even a race. They are a mutation. What mutation is? In simple language it's defective. Like in any factory there is a quality control that finds the defectives so in the genetics there is someone who is defective. The Jews are defective. What does it mean? Listen carefully to what they've said. They've said that every Jew suffers from his existence as a Jew. He lives in troubled way. If you kill him then you are doing a favor to him. It's like the saying: "You must shoot a wounded horse in his head", right? To shorted his suffering. The German stayed with a clean conscience, this is what Eichmann explained in the sentenced cell. He helps the Jew not to suffer any more, what can be more good than that? Did you understand what a kind of theory they developed? This theory wasn't created by the Zulu tribe nor by the Mongolians. It must be clear to you, since the creation of mankind till today there wasn't such a cultivated nation such as the German nation in music, in physics, in chemistry, it was the center of science in the world, the international language, in the beginning of the 20th century, the international language of the science was in German language. If Einstein and his friends weren't expelled from Germany in 1933 then they would have had a bomb after one year. It was in 1934. They made the mistake of their life. It's not the time now to enter this issue but I can show you in a very clear way, it was an amazing thing. From all the things that Hitler wrote in "Mein Kampf" he fulfilled only one thing. In "Mein Kampf" the Jews are only a small issue, it should be clear. There are many issues in this book. He didn't fulfill anything of those things apart from one thing: to destroy the Jews. Apart from one thing. In a consistent way. WHY IT'S INTERESTING? BECAUSE HE DESTROYED GERMANY! You should understand. If he didn't expel the Jews then he would have rulled all over the world, like he wanted to do, he would have got the Atomic bomb, he had the money, he had economy and industry. There are confirmed and unequivocal research about how the economy, and the industry and the science were demolished because he expelled the Jewish treetop from all the places. He didn't shoot at his legs but at his abdomen. Why? What will you say? The hate for the Jews? IT'S A FACT. I showed you what he said about the Communists. The first thing that Hitler did was a treaty with the Communists, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty. So? Hitler said to himself: "easy easy. First we will do a treaty with them, we will finish first French and then with Poland and then the time of the Russians will come." In other words, he knew how to operate in a supervised strategic way, not from the abdomen but from the head. Why didn't he tell the same regarding the Jews? That they will do the bomb for him and after he will be arranged with his country and after he will finish Poland then he will finish the Jews? No. He damaged himself. In 1944-45, the German army is collapsing, the Generals are begging to surrender. There were tries to kill and to eliminate Hitler from the inside but they all failed, a Satan act. The army is crying for reinforcement, they don't have fuel for the tanks. From the office of the Fuhrer they say: "There's no fuel, get along with what you've got." The army asked for reinforcement in trains and from the office of the Fuhrer they answered: "There are no trains." But they had fuel for the trains that were heading to Auschwitz. There were wagons so how come they didn't have fuel? Who comes previously, Auschwitz or the army? Who comes previously, Auschwitz or Germany? I'm telling you, everything are facts. How come? Can someone thinks it's an action of a mankind? Cause Hitler should have thought first about the interests of Germany, first they will finish the thing with the allies and then we will come back to deal with them (Jews). Everyone see the obsessive way of it. On the other hand, Auschwitz Birkenau a place that 3 million Jews were destroyed in - this place was in the middle of an industrial area. The allies bombed this area night and day, night and day but only around. They didn't touch the ovens. There are some people who are saying that they didn't bomb it in purpose because they also don't like the Jews in particular and there are some people who are saying that they couldn't identify the chimneys of the ovens with the other industrial chimneys. Come what may. Isn't it a question mark? You can see the things in a clear way, believe me. One day in 1979, I've heard in the radio a famous Israeli writer. Then he was famous but not like today, today he is a (doing with his hands as if the writer is a superstar). And I've heard him saying something in the radio about the Tanach and I wrote him a letter and I've said to him that I heard him talking about the Tanach and that I think that he has some kind of misunderstanding, some kind of misknowledge and I'm willing to meet him in his Kibbutz and to explain the things to him. And he answered me like this: "1. A man who didn't read Mapo and Berdechevsky - I don't have nothing to talk with him. 2. If you want to talk to me then you should read this book of mine, a certain book of mine. 3. In a generation in which 1.5 million children were burned - I don't have nothing to talk about God." I've answered him that: Listen, you are writing to me about Berdechevsky and Mapo, you don't know me, how do you know that I didn't read them like you were reading them or more than you were reading them? How do you know if I'm not familiar with all the writers of education for their species? 2. Thanks very much that you directed me to your book, now I understand you better. 3. Indeed it's a very good question. 1.5 million children? Indeed there wasn't such thing in the past, but I'll ask you couple of more questions, questions that the best researchers, the best historians and the best strategists are asking about the first and the second world war, moves, tactics, politics, everything. They wrote many researches but they don't have an answer about them. The test of a theory is how many of questions you can answer in a one and a direct answer. You are all familiar with these issues in the social sciences and also in the exact science. I'll give you now an answer to 11 questions, not to one, but to 11 questions. A direct and a consistent one and I've written to him a long article, about 800 pages of folio. His answer was: "I have to admit that your truth is complete with itself and within itself, for those of you who don't know it's a philosophical term for a closed truth. I (the writer) don't have this kind of wholeness, pray for me that I'll find it some day, but I don't want to meet you." Why? Because I talk in the language of facts and in the language of the brain and I'm not talking from the abdomen. He is talking in the language of the abdomen. This is why, gentlemen, that we are sitting in the remembrance holocaust day, it seems so banal that the minister of defence or the chief of general staff is going to Auschwitz and saying: "IF THE STATE OF ISRAEL EXISTED THEN THERE WOULDN'T BE THE HOLOCAUST". Really? He (Hitler) would have conquered the state of Israel, what's the problem? He could conquered France? He could conquered Poland? What? The state of Israel would be his first aim, if there been here 5 million Jews. Where's the common sence? I won't enter this subject, there are many things to say about it. Untill this day, it's unclear why Rommel didn't win in El Alamein. People say it's a coincidence. Why Montgomery won? God is responsible for that. It's a clear miracle. BECAUSE HERE (in Israel), BECAUSE HERE PEOPLE DID WHAT ESTHER DID. 3 DAYS PEOPLE FASTED AND PRAYED, AND ALSO IN THE KIBBUTZIM, in the remembrance day of Rabbi Chaim Ben Atar who is known as Or Hachaim Hakadosh. In all the communities (In Israel). And a day after the withdraw of Rommel started. These are facts. Therefore, the holocaust remembrance day should have been dedicated not to exterior things but to the looking in the internal. To look why God brought it upon us. Why he was so angry at us. Because of what? And I'm telling you not to accept my words because I've told them to you or because unidentified persons told them. It took me many years, dozens of years to search and to examine. And I'm telling to everybody and not only to you: I've spoken in forums of historians, researchers and teachers of history, if I make mistake then correct me, if you have a different theory then show it, and I'll show you exactly the legs of the chicken that your theory is standing on, on the basis of clear emptiness. It's not the truth, it's not the truth. All the things that I say are supported with documents. These are facts. And when we are standing today, in great anxiety in front of an Iranian Nazi, an Iranian Nazi who speaks in the same language. Yesterday people said that he will destroy the country and they (Jews) will come back to Europe, then people should sit and think. "Let us search and try our ways, and return to the LORD", is saying the prophet. It's called in the modern language: drawing conclusions. Not to act like an ostrich, not to talk demagogy. It's clear that everything is demagogy, but to do a real observation. "Let us search and try our ways, and return to the LORD." And then it will be exactly like in the days of Achashverosh. All the Hamans and the Amalekites will be hang up upon a tall tree, and we will be rescued in an eternal rescue. 
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#3
01-01-2007, 06:01 PM
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I'm mad that God let a post like that happen. Even the flood eventually subsided. Sheesh!
I didn't read the OP, but my two cents: God cannot be held accountable for the actions of men. He gave them free will. You cannot hold the traffic light responsible for people who run the red light and crash into children, either. If people cannot follow guidelines & rules set forth, how do they get to put the blame onto something other than themselves?
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"The unhappy derive comfort from the misfortunes of others. " Aesop
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#4
01-01-2007, 06:35 PM
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He supposedly loves us. We are created in his image after all. We are his children. He sent his son to die for us. So the story goes.  Now, given the power this god wields and his supposed love for us, it is wholly illogical for this god to stand by idly while other people's "free will" causes such great suffering and harm to innocents. Being omnipotent, he would have known that Hitler was going to be a murderous monster. He'dve known that the guy had it in for his "Chosen People" and that millions would suffer incredibly as a result of it. Yet this one guy's free will takes precedence? That is horseshit. We humans aren't omnipotent and yet we will do everything we can to ensure no harm comes to our children, least of all at the hands of some sicko. This free-will nonsense isn't some written-in-stone law that god himself cannot break: The free will of the denizens of Sodom or Gomorrah didn't take precedence over god's law. Pharoh's desire for slaves didn't seem to take precedence over the freedom of the slaves. Supposedly, God personally intervened in these two cases despite the free will of the people involved. Why does god now allow the free will of men like Hitler to override others free will to, say, live? Free will is an argument put forth to explain god's conspicuous absence. It gives the faithful an "out" for all such questions. You might as well have said "god works in mysterious ways."
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"We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." Richard Dawkins
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#6
01-01-2007, 07:08 PM
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The belief in an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God necessitates the belief that we live in the best of all possible worlds. That is, there is no such thing as purposeless evil. Every evil must be instrumental in the creation of a greater good.
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http://www.thesolution.org.nz
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#7
01-01-2007, 07:37 PM
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#8
01-01-2007, 07:44 PM
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To deny the existence of free will is absurd. We all have it. We can run amuck tonight if we choose to do so. Quote:
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#9
01-01-2007, 07:53 PM
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It could be that ignoring a person's cry for help, turning a deaf ear to the neighbor who screams for help when her husband hits her, not calling for help for a child we think is abused, not giving a few dollars to the homeless man on the street, not ensuring our elders are taken into our homes & offered the same care we received as children, are terrible acts we perpetrate on our fellow men. Perhaps these are as great a wrong as murder.
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"The unhappy derive comfort from the misfortunes of others. " Aesop
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#10
01-01-2007, 08:45 PM
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Then refuse it. Live without it for a week, a month or a year. Hard, isn't it? Could you even do it? Now, we agree then that our will is not wholly free. It is constrained by a conscience and by many desires. Even moreso, our reason is both utterly limited in what it can accomplish and utterly limiting in what it allows us to do. Our will is, at the most, partially free. Indeed, as life goes on, we appear to become less free, as our available choices become constrained by our previous choices. Is it such a leap from this situation to say that free will is nothing but a persuasive illusion? If this is the case, life is meaningless. Indeed, life is dead. We may lack free will if the world is wholly material. If there is nothing metaphysical, our consciousness is nothing but the sum total of random mechanistic interactions. So, without "God", we could not be free; we would be nothing more than physical, chemical and biological processes. If so...well, you don't exist. Nor do I. We're simply collections of stuff with no independant inherant value. If I kill you, I do no wrong. How can I? I didn't choose to; it was my scientific destiny! And there's no you to kill; I just rearranged some meaningless matter from a form that possessed the illusion of consciousness to one that (probably) does not. But, then, what if there is God? Whatever free will we have must have been given to us by God. Where else could it come from? God must have created us and then said "No peeking - I'll let them make up their own minds." Plausible. Hey, I believe it. Of course, the alternative is plausible too. Maybe God has tightly scripted every element of our lives, like an overly-controlling film director. Maybe there's no choice for us. Maybe all life is God's stage and we're His players, following His script without the slightest hint of variation. Maybe God has scripted that you will run amok tonight. If so, you will. Perhaps all the apparent absurdity in human behaviour is just the warped joke of the divine. If this is so, however, God is Hitler. And Pol Pot. And, possibly worse, me (and you). Whatever we do, Such a divinely scripted world is also the death of morality. Only in a world with some free will and some metaphysical fundament can morality and ethics exist, let alone mean anything. Otherwise, I can kill someone with no more regret than Camus's stranger and be utterly right. If Mersault is right or if Nietzsche is right then there is no meaning at all. All is permitted, but nothing matters. Or, nothing is permitted and everything matters...but what we appear to choose doesn't matter, because in reality we are following God's script. So whatever we do is right. God was speaking to Jeffrey Dahmer and everyone else. Ethics is irrelevant because whatever you do...is right. Jumping off a bridge seems tempting about now. [I am ignoring other metaphysical ideas here in the interests of not writing a small novel here...] God is the ultimate author of all. There is no authority above God, but God is above all other authorities. Thus, if anything is worse than it could be, God is to blame; he created the situation causing the pointless evil. Thus, if we accept God, we deny the existence of pointless evil. There can be no better world than this. It doesn't get any better than this. This is the best. Every agony must have a purpose. To say otherwise is to call God powerless or evil; either accusation would make Him a liar. And, that would be worrying indeed. Quote:
You can hold anything with a choice responsible for anthing its choice creates.
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http://www.thesolution.org.nz
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#11
01-01-2007, 10:14 PM
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Why does god need humans to do his fighting for him? Forty million people perished in WWII to do the bidding of a god whose will could have been achieved with nothing more than a thought on his part? "Hmmm...I commandeth a heart attack...NO!...a brain anyeurysm to smiteth thee dead!" It would have been so easy, so simple, so logical for the creator of all with the power to speak and think things into existence to take care of a problem and save his perfect creation and the innocents that he also created and loves years and years of pure hell. This is so hilariously nonsensical! The god that spun quarks and quantum foam needs/expects his dirt-side animated meat to make and take bullets and mortars and grenades and poison gas to see that his will of overthrowing another of his creations is carried out? Quote:
C'mon jojo...how can intelligent people buy this stuff?
__________________
"We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." Richard Dawkins Last edited by KanuckiStang; 01-01-2007 at 10:17 PM.
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#12
01-02-2007, 12:34 AM
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"Where was God in the holocaust?"
Same place he's always been, in the minds of his crazy followers.
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#13
01-02-2007, 09:00 AM
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Non Jews are children of Noach who should follow the seven laws and if not then God punishes them also.
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#14
01-02-2007, 09:04 AM
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Another proof of his existence is that he is the one who took 3 millions of children of Israel from slavery in Egypt and he did it with great miracles, he is the one that did the revelation in mount Horeb and spoke to the nation and gave them the Torah commandments. 600,000 children of Israel above the age of 18 were in that revelation plus their wives and their families, total of 3 million people.
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#15
01-02-2007, 09:45 AM
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#16
01-02-2007, 09:46 AM
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#17
01-02-2007, 10:57 AM
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Why didn't God simply punish Hitler with a fatal heart attack? Why leave it to thousands and thousands of godless communists (i.e. the Soviets) and allied soldiers to do his bidding and his punishing? Quote:
Why doesn't such punishment continue now? If people, even Jews have free will, why would god punish them for exercising that god-given free will?
__________________
"We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." Richard Dawkins
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#18
01-02-2007, 11:48 AM
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#19
01-02-2007, 12:22 PM
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It's like in any other country, if you will do negative things then you will go to prison. When God gave the Torah commandments to the Jews he said to them: "I give you in this day the life and the death and you will choose the life." Which means that you are living in a world that has both good things and bad things. if the world was only good thing then you wouldn't appreciate it and you would have live your life like a robot. Imagine that you raise your children from the day he is born in a palace and you give him what ever he wants, then your children doesn't even knows that he is rich because he is living in a world that gives him everything and he thinks that this is the way things are, do you understand me? Do you want a child like that? Last edited by The face of Jacob; 01-02-2007 at 12:31 PM.
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#20
01-02-2007, 03:02 PM
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It seems to me that Joseph and Mary could have done better.
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