Common sense on the Border

[soylentgreen]

Thomas Sowell's latest column is complete truth about the border. The man is brilliant. I wish he were president instead of Bush.

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/colu...23/198423.html

"How many times have we heard that illegal aliens are taking "jobs that Americans won't do"? Just what specifically are those jobs?

Even in occupations where illegals are concentrated, such as agriculture, cleaning, construction, and food preparation, the great majority of the work is still being done by people who are not illegal aliens.

The highest concentration of illegals is in agriculture, where they are 24 percent of the people employed. That means three-quarters of the people are not illegal aliens."

Wow, that is interesting, isn't it?

"Another insult to our intelligence is that amnesty is not amnesty if you call it something else. The fact that illegals will have to fulfill certain requirements to become American citizens is supposed to mean that this is not amnesty."

That's exactly right.

"Yet another insult to our intelligence is saying that, since we cannot find and deport 12 million people, the only choice left is to find some way to make them legal.

There is probably no category of law-breakers -- from counterfeiters to burglars or from jay-walkers to murderers -- who can all be found and arrested. But no one suggests that we must therefore make what they have done legal.

Such an argument would suggest that there is nothing in between 100 percent effective law enforcement and zero percent effective law enforcement."

Amen, brother!!

"Putting unarmed national guardsmen on the border is another cosmetic move, a placebo instead of real medicine. The excuse is that it is not possible to train more than 1,500 border patrol agents a year. Meanwhile, we have trained well over 200,000 Iraqi security forces while guerilla warfare raged around them. "

Nuff said.

[Keylia]

*applause*

[302Riz]

Someone will chime in this thread and say the following:

"This is hate speech" or "Thomas Sowell is racist"

[fenianforever1689]

But let's do what the spinmeisters hope we will never do -- stop and think.

This is something that is lacking on both sides of the aisle.

If I hear Bush say one more time that he doesn't support massive deportation I am going to scream and have a general temper tantrum. No one is calling for that. It is a strawman. It is a red herring. I don't believe anything that Bush is saying on this issue. His past actions, or rather, lack thereof, speak for themselves, and for him.


Yep. Sowell is correct and brilliant.

Amnesty is overlooking ("forgetting," as in amnesia) the violation of the law committed by those who have crossed our borders illegally.

It doesn't matter that, as Bush is fond of saying, that these people are just looking for a better life for their children.

So are 500 MILLION Chinese people. Just because continents and oceans separate us doesn't mean that poor, hardworking, family valued Chinese don't want to come here.

Why not let 50 million Chinese in a year?

How about 50 million Indians?

The conditions in both those countries are arguably worse than they are in Mexico. At least in Mexico there is no slavery as in India, nor is their organ harvesting of executed prisoners, as in China.

[fenianforever1689]

The real question is what we do with whatever illegal aliens we do find. Right now, there are various communities around the country where local officials have a policy of forbidding the police from reporting illegal immigrants to federal authorities.

I have never understood this particular prohibition. Why shouldn't local police agencies be allowed to arrest, detain, and deport foriegn criminals?

Why are people who are so gung ho for punishing employers so utterly silent about needing to punish government officials who openly and deliberately violate federal laws?

The answer to this is probably obvious to Mr. Sowell: these people hate business and any opportunity to attack them is heartily embraced. To them, business NEVER provides anything of value.

[fenianforever1689]

Originally Posted by 302Riz

Someone will chime in this thread and say the following:

"This is hate speech" or "Thomas Sowell is racist"

I guess that will either be out of ignorance, considering Sowell is black, or it will be another attempt to marginalize a black intellect that has wandered off the plantation like Cosby, Connerly, Rice, Watts, Williams, Steele &c.

[Feenix566]

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
Albert Einstein


You say illegals are "taking American jobs" because they're willing to work for less money. If we offered them amnesty, and they became citizens, then they would be subject to the same wage controls as natively born Americans. Would they still be taking American jobs under that scenario?

If so, then every American is taking American jobs by competing with other Americans. Why don't we just deport the entire population of Iowa? They're taking jobs away from other Americans!

[fenianforever1689]

[quote=Feenix566]

You say illegals are "taking American jobs" because they're willing to work for less money.

Yes I do.

If we offered them amnesty, and they became citizens, then they would be subject to the same wage controls as natively born Americans.

By magic? That is a reason against amnesty not a prelude arguement for deporting Iowa.

Would they still be taking American jobs under that scenario?

You mean IF they are rewarded for being criminals? Yes they would be competing with other poor uneducated Americans for the crap jobs.

If so, then every American is taking American jobs by competing with other Americans. Why don't we just deport the entire population of Iowa? They're taking jobs away from other Americans!

Able to leap an entire valid argument with a single fallacious bound.

[Feenix566]

You completely failed to address my point, so I'll repeat it.

Originally Posted by fenianforever1689

You mean IF they are rewarded for being criminals? Yes they would be competing with other poor uneducated Americans for the crap jobs.

Able to leap an entire valid argument with a single fallacious bound.

You say that anyone who competes with poor uneducated Americans is taking away jobs from poor uneducated Americans. So that means that poor uneducated Americans are taking away jobs from each other. So why don't we just deport half of them?

[Corporate Avenger]

I don't like Sowell one bit, but I agree with him here...

[soylentgreen]

Originally Posted by fenianforever1689

I have never understood this particular prohibition. Why shouldn't local police agencies be allowed to arrest, detain, and deport foriegn criminals?

They see it as "That's not our job" and don't want to expend their resources on it. I also suspect that the Feds are pretty territorial about it. So, the locals probably just throw up their hands and say "Why bother".

[soylentgreen]

Originally Posted by Feenix566

"You say illegals are "taking American jobs" because they're willing to work for less money. If we offered them amnesty, and they became citizens, then they would be subject to the same wage controls as natively born Americans. Would they still be taking American jobs under that scenario?

Hahaha, yeah, except now they're taking good-paying jobs! Then, we'll need another influx of illegals to fill the low-wage jobs that the former illegals have abandoned.

[soylentgreen]

Originally Posted by fenianforever1689

Yes they would be competing with other poor uneducated Americans for the crap jobs.

That's what we need in this country! More competition for the low income workers to "keep them down". For a while there, it was getting too easy for the working poor to support themselves. I'm glad there are so many people that support bringing in more illegals to keep those damn poor people honest.

[fenianforever1689]

Originally Posted by Feenix566

You completely failed to address my point, so I'll repeat it.

I addressed the point I thought you were making you were hardly clear. Starting with the irrelevant quote from Einstein about common sense to the very end it didn't make any sense.

don't fault me for trying to make sense of it!!!

You say that anyone who competes with poor uneducated Americans is taking away jobs from poor uneducated Americans.

NO> I don't say that. I say that poor, uneducated illegal Mexicans are being exploited in a manner that poor, uneducated Americans won't allow.

therefore they are suppressing the wages. So they aren't taking jobs away from Americans in the same way at all.

that is the point I addressed and now you are changing the argument.

So that means that poor uneducated Americans are taking away jobs from each other. So why don't we just deport half of them?

Because that is a stupid idea.

[fenianforever1689]

Originally Posted by soylentgreen

They see it as "That's not our job" and don't want to expend their resources on it. I also suspect that the Feds are pretty territorial about it. So, the locals probably just throw up their hands and say "Why bother".

Well no. As Sowell points out there are civil codes specifically prohibiting the arrest and detention of people based on legal status. It has less to do with resources than it does with politics I think.

[fenianforever1689]

Originally Posted by soylentgreen

That's what we need in this country! More competition for the low income workers to "keep them down". For a while there, it was getting too easy for the working poor to support themselves. I'm glad there are so many people that support bringing in more illegals to keep those damn poor people honest.

What is your problem?

I didn't say that!

I am against the argument that people are making on this issue based on the fact that they are willing to exploit the labor of poor Mexicans.

You must have missed everything else I said , or you want a fight?

[Feenix566]

Originally Posted by fenianforever1689

I addressed the point I thought you were making you were hardly clear. Starting with the irrelevant quote from Einstein about common sense to the very end it didn't make any sense.

don't fault me for trying to make sense of it!!!

Maybe it's my fault for not expressing it clearly enough.

NO> I don't say that. I say that poor, uneducated illegal Mexicans are being exploited in a manner that poor, uneducated Americans won't allow.

If you're worried about the well-being of illegal Mexicans, deporting them isn't gonna fix that.

Because that is a stupid idea.

Why is it a stupid idea? You're all saying that there's too much supply of unskilled labor, so we need to artificially cut that supply so the price goes up. Why target only Mexicans?

[fenianforever1689]

Originally Posted by Feenix566

Maybe it's my fault for not expressing it clearly enough.

Clearly.

If you're worried about the well-being of illegal Mexicans, deporting them isn't gonna fix that.

Have I talked about deportation?

why don't you address things that I said?

If not then then address the post?

Stop with the red herrings.

Why is it a stupid idea? You're all saying that there's too much supply of unskilled labor, so we need to artificially cut that supply so the price goes up. Why target only Mexicans?

It is not just a stupid idea but it is based on monumentally stupid premises.

I don't want to go thru your whole lame argument again.

Mexicans aren't Americans. You couldn't deport Americans. That is why is it really stupid. But carry on.

[Feenix566]

Originally Posted by fenianforever1689

Mexicans aren't Americans. You couldn't deport Americans.

Well that's really what it comes down to, now isn't it?

That's why nobody wants to offer amnesty to the Mexicans. Because they just don't like 'em.

[SimoneAsLily]

At times Sowell has some validity in his opinions but in this particular one he, like so many others, fails to emphasize what in MY opinion should be the first things first issue.

Bush actually did in his Monday night speech partially. He started by saying

"First, the United States must secure its borders. This is a basic responsibility of a sovereign Nation. It is also an urgent requirement of our national security. Our objective is straightforward: The border should be open to trade and lawful immigration – and shut to illegal immigrants, as well as criminals, drug dealers, and terrorists."

YES, YES, YES

Then he watered that down with

"Second, to secure our border, we must create a temporary worker program"

Huh? How will this secure the border?

Then of course he assured that not much would be done by saying

"An immigration reform bill needs to be comprehensive, because all elements of this problem must be addressed together – or none of them will be solved at all."

Certain death knoll for solving any problem.

It is sad that it has come to this but unless the priority is to strengthen and secure our borders none of the other issues which also need addressing have any hope of being resolved. Otherwise history will continue to repeat itself

Good fences make good neighbors.