The Scotch Irish influence on America: xenophobia, racism and war

[Jay GW]

There's a very interesting essay in the current issue of Reason magazine about how American culture has been dominated by the Scots Irish.

http://reason.com/

Here's one of many books on them:

Born Fighting : How the Scots-Irish Shaped America
by James Webb
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...99361?v=glance

Here is a portion of another essay on this group:

So the crown did what crowns usually do to dangerous people they no longer need: It tried to break them. Taxes were raised, prices were lowered; entire industries were prohibited or tied up in red tape. The hand of big gummint descended on the Ulster Scots and squeezed the bejezzus out of them.

Result: A mass migration to greener pastures across the Atlantic. Not everyone left. Enough genetic material remained behind to produce Rev. Paisley, for instance. But between 1700 and 1776, something like 250,000 Orangemen (a huge number for that day and age) departed for America. By the eve of the Revolution, 15% to 20% of the entire population of the 13 colonies hailed from that one relatively small corner of the Emerald Isle.

To distinguish them from their Catholic enemies, the Ulster immigrants became known in America as the "Scotch Irish." And if that sounds like a blend of whiskeys, there's a good reason, as we'll see later.

The combat skills the Scotch Irish had honed fighting Catholics back home came in handy in the New World. Finding the eastern seaboard largely settled, most headed for the frontier, where they began to update their skills on the local Native American tribes.

But in the process, many of these Scotch-Irish frontiersmen got back in touch with their own tribal roots -- with their inner Pict, so to speak. A kind of cultural degeneration set in. Starched Presbyterians turned into bible-thumping Baptists, without losing one bit of their fire-eating extremism in the process. But religion increasingly took a third or fourth seat to more immediate interests: guns, whiskey and an insatiable hunger for free land -- free of living Native Americans, that is.

To their established Eastern neighbors, the Scotch Irish started to look almost as dangerous as the natives they had replaced. Or, as Kevin Phillips puts it, they came to represent "the Southern back country culture . . . of what most Americans would later call 'crackers' or 'poor white trash.' "

http://billmon.org/archives/cat_history.html
_____

Scots Irish were a very warlike people in Europe and that didn't change at all when they arrived in the New World, America. Most of the revolutionary army was made up of this group. In the Civil War, they formed the bulk of the Confederate Army and a good part of the Union Army as well. Very militaristic.

Look at this map showing where people of Scots Irish (Red) descent live:




Now look at this map of the red Republican Christian fundamentalist states and the blue Democrat left leaning ones from the presidential election of 2000, which put Bush into power:





Notice anything? You could almost superimpose one on the other, couldn't you?

By and large, the Christian fundamentalists, pro Iraq war, United Nations hating, foreigner in general hating group comes from the Scots Irish. It's just been part of their culture.

Even today in the year 2005, look at Ireland. It's one of the most conservative countries in a continent that is legalizing gay marriage left and right! What does that tell you?

I agree with the essayist that their influence on America is largely negative. He had this to say:

But politically, I think the Scotch-Irish contribution has been largely for the bad. It helped give the national character that selfish but self-righteous quality the rest of the world (as well as me) find so obnoxious. It spawned a culture of violence that is now almost completely out of control. And, of course, it gave us Jerry Falwell.

I have lived around their areas like Texas - the King Ranch, for example, is the world's largest operational cattle ranch and was founded by Irish.

I've lived around them and there's no question they have a VERY deep suspicion/hate for government and most "intellectual" types, elites. I don't care for them at all - what's your opinion?

More about them and their continuing influence on America:

http://billmon.org/archives/cat_history.html

[Pints with Plato]

That Ian Paisley is an unsavory fellow, to say the least...

[Ras Bizarre High]

I heard someone make a funny point the other day about how mexicans were first feared in this country because it was thought that they might team up with the other second-class Catholic citizens, the Irish, and achieve political power through shared religious beliefs. Luckily for WASP hegemony the irish can't get along with anybody.

[302Riz]

Jesus, first is the catholics now its the keltics? Who will Jay pick on next?

BTW, the largest ethinc group in this country is German.

[Pints with Plato]

Let's be careful to realize that the Irish and the Scots-Irish are culturally distinct people...

If the Irish had as much influence on America as the Scots-Irish, there'd be a lot more pubs around the place, and lot fewer wars... fights there'd be more of, but wars, not as many!

[Pappy&Me]

You mean it was the scots who created the greatist country on earth ? I'll have to remember to thank them .

But shame on them for fighting indians, they already had enough problems, killing each other, mexicans, spanish and french.

[AtariTeenageSuicide]

it was new england wasps who were responsible for the bloodiest american wars, though...

civil war
world war I
world war II

i would also posit that wasps were far more xenophobic and racist than most scots-irish for the great part of their history.

[Jay GW]

BTW, the largest ethinc group in this country is German.

No it's not.

It was new england wasps who were responsible for the bloodiest american wars, though...

The Civil War was started by the Confederates, who were....guess who the Scots Irish. World War I and II were started in New England? I need to have a talk with my dumbo history teacher....

[Snouter]

Just to add some real world info to the insanity presented by Jay GW, a friend of mine was going to visit some relatives in Scotland next week, but the crazy liberals (his Scottish relatives) have been suckered into the anarcho-Marxist protests against the G8 and attending the ridiculous protests is apparently their priority. The liberal establishment brainwashing is devastating.

[Erhnam]

Originally Posted by Jay GW

No it's not.

Uhh, last I checked, 5-6 years ago, they were. I highly doubt it has changed that much in that time span. Never know with George "viva la reconquista" Bush, though. About 50 million of them, in any event. What's that, about 18% or so?

They immigrated to big cities, and states like Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Iowa, and Illinois.

[Manstein]

What European racial group WASN'T Xenophobic in the 1600's????

Scotch-Irish are fine people. Excellent Soldiers too.

I am proud of the impact they have left on this country.

http://www.scotchirish.net/Building%20a%20country.php4

Ambassador Reid inferred in this address that these two branches of Scots "deserve more credit for the making of America than any other race of people - that there would have been no United States without them."

[Myrddin]

Originally Posted by Pints with Plato

That Ian Paisley is an unsavory fellow, to say the least...

I will be a happy man the day he starts pushing up daisies.. orange daisies.

[Erhnam]

Originally Posted by Manstein

Scotch-Irish are fine people. Excellent Soldiers too.

[/b]

But who are the great persons among them that we can point to and say,
" without this guy, we would have been toast."

[AtariTeenageSuicide]

Originally Posted by Jay GW

The Civil War was started by the Confederates, who were....guess who the Scots Irish. World War I and II were started in New England? I need to have a talk with my dumbo history teacher....

the civil war and world wars i and ii (at least america's entry in them) were financial wars, largely fueled by the greed of WASP financiers (or, in the case of the civil war, by new england abolitionist fanatics and merchantile interests).

[Dogberry]

Most of the early irish immigrants were Proddies, which makes it a nice irony that many of their descendents support the IRA.

As for being racist and xenophobic, by todays standards most people were. That was the time they lived in. I wonder what they would think of us.

[Pints with Plato]

Originally Posted by AtariTeenageSuicide

it was new england wasps who were responsible for the bloodiest american wars, though...

civil war
world war I
world war II

i would also posit that wasps were far more xenophobic and racist than most scots-irish for the great part of their history.

The Scots-Irish ARE wasps...

Originally Posted by Myrddin

I will be a happy man the day he starts pushing up daisies.. orange daisies.

The man has done nothing but spread hate and rouse others to violence... That the man is a "reverend" is incomprehesible... must never have read the bible in his life!

[Pints with Plato]

Originally Posted by Dogberry

Most of the early irish immigrants were Proddies, which makes it a nice irony that many of their descendents support the IRA.

The early Irish immigrants who were Protestant were (largely) Scots-Irish.

[Dogberry]

Originally Posted by Pints with Plato

The early Irish immigrants who were Protestant were (largely) Scots-Irish.

That is a strange term and one to which no-one in Ireland or Scotland would claim.

There are catholic Scots and Prodestant Irish.

But then again i dont understand the American view on such tings, is there a group in the US that calls itself Scot-Irish?

[Pints with Plato]

Originally Posted by Dogberry

That is a strange term and one to which no-one in Ireland or Scotland would claim.

There are catholic Scots and Prodestant Irish.

But then again i dont understand the American view on such tings, is there a group in the US that calls itself Scot-Irish?

My understanding of the term is that it refers to the descendants of the Ulster Plantation of 1601. These people were Scottish Presbyterians who were encouraged to resettle in Ulster (Northern Ireland) by the Queen, in order to facilitate English colonialization of the island of Ireland. In Northern Ireland, they are the cultural ancestors of the modern "orangemen" and "unionists". Certainly there are Catholics who might be descended of the "Scots-Irish", but they would be a considerable minority of that group.

Likewise, the modern "republicans" (in Northern Ireland, not American politics ) are the cultural descendants of the native Irish. These folks are largely Catholic. But also there are Protestants among them, but they also would be a considerable minority.

The term WASP is an acronym for "white, anglo-saxon, protestant". The Scots-Irish fit that category, but the Irish do not (again, this is a generalization).

I'm not sure, to be honest, if the term WASP is only an American understanding, or if it applies generally. If it's just American (which is the case we are discussing in this thread), then those who would fit that category in America would obviously be the American descendants of the Scots-Irish immigrants to America.

[Myrddin]

Originally Posted by Dogberry

That is a strange term and one to which no-one in Ireland or Scotland would claim.

It does sound like a strange whiskey blend to me.

There are catholic Scots and Prodestant Irish.

Yes the Highland Scots are mostly Catholic and there historically was quite a few Protestant Irish in and around The Pale.

But then again i dont understand the American view on such tings, is there a group in the US that calls itself Scot-Irish?

I am sure some people in N. Ireland regard themselves as being Scottish or being of Scottish decent but I have never heard of a person there calling themselves Scotch-Irish. People in N. Ireland (for the most part) call themselves Irish or British (despite not being born on the island of Britain), there are also a small group who want an independent N. Ireland but for the most part they wouldn't call themselves anything with the word "Irish" in it.
It sounds like an invention of the decedents of Americanised N. Irish immigrants to me.