Sex with underage girls 'normal'

[Dogberry]

Apparently on Pitcairn Island. For anyone who doesnt know this is the island settled by Fetcher Christian and the mutineers from the Bounty.

Mind you I bet the kids all play a mean banjo....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/3950991.stm

The island of Pitcairn must cope with a precarious future as six men face imprisonment over sex charges.
The men, convicted of various offences, often involving underage girls, could be jailed in a specially-built prison on the island.

This would allow the option of releasing them to perform tasks vital for the community's livelihood.

It has been claimed that if the men are not available to help with these tasks, particularly the manning of the longboat that goes out to passing ships, life on the island will not be sustainable.

Kari Young, originally from Finland but a resident on the island for a 20-year-period, said things could never be the same again.

This was Britain and New Zealand's chance to bring the [island] into this century, instead of destroying a fragile community

Kari Young
Former islander
"The whole structure on the island has changed. With six men in jail it will be very difficult. It won't be a community any more.

"Their families... how can they get firewood, do repairs on the houses, or do the carvings to get money for survival? It is absolutely impossible. It will be an artificial community."

Many islanders feel the men have been unfairly treated, insisting that sex with underage girls was considered normal on Pitcairn.

Ms Young, who left Pitcairn for New Zealand a decade ago, but who spent six months there recently, said: "Very few of us believe there should have been charges.

"This was Britain and New Zealand's chance to bring the [island] into this century, instead of destroying a fragile community. It will never be the same, it won't survive.

"I also know the men are just as much a victim of circumstances as the women were. They were left to themselves.

"I'm quite convinced there was no rape, or not on the scale alleged. There was underage sex, but rape, no. I know those men and I know those women.

"Those men are not criminals, they were just doing what their fathers and forefathers did and the girls were doing what their mothers had done."

The harder we get flogged the stronger we get... our men are not rapists or child molesters

Meralda Warren
Sister of cleared man
She said there had been a need for "restorative justice, not condemnation of the community", in a place she described as both beautiful and unique.

"I love the island, the isolation and the feeling of security."

At the start of the trial Meralda Warren, an islander whose brother Jay was cleared of indecent assault, wrote an impassioned e-mail to the BBC News website and other journalists in defence of her family and of Pitcairn.

"The British diplomats made sure it will happen. They are trying to rid us of our island home.

[Dreamscapist]

How "underage" were these girls: 15...16...17?
It is not up to England or NZ to dictate morals to indigenous cultures, especially when the enforcement of these imposed laws creates an unnecessary economic hardship on the community.
Polynesians mate at an early age, and a little research will show you that this is true of most world cultures who have not had Puritanical morality forced upon them. Cultures who are more attuned to Nature pick fruits when they first ripen, instead of waiting for them to fall from the tree.

[86Dude]

Screw the savages. Either wise up, get exterminated, or go to jail.

[Dreamscapist]

Originally Posted by 86Dude

Screw the savages...

My sentiments exactly, but isn't that the cause of all the trouble?

[86Dude]

Originally Posted by Dreamscapist

My sentiments exactly, but isn't that the cause of all the trouble?

LOL, yeah I guess so.

[Dogberry]

Originally Posted by Dreamscapist

How "underage" were these girls: 15...16...17?
It is not up to England or NZ to dictate morals to indigenous cultures, especially when the enforcement of these imposed laws creates an unnecessary economic hardship on the community.
Polynesians mate at an early age, and a little research will show you that this is true of most world cultures who have not had Puritanical morality forced upon them. Cultures who are more attuned to Nature pick fruits when they first ripen, instead of waiting for them to fall from the tree.

Why comment on an article you cant be arsed to read?

The people there aren't indiginous, they are descendants of British Mutineers and people from other islands.

The girls were 12 and 13 at the time. Pitcairn is a UK dependency.

[Dreamscapist]

Originally Posted by Dogberry

Why comment on an article you cant be arsed to read?

The people there aren't indiginous, they are descendants of British Mutineers and people from other islands.

The girls were 12 and 13 at the time. Pitcairn is a UK dependency.

In reading the article the SECOND time, I still saw no ages given, and had to search through other links to find this info, but it doesn't change my opinion.
I know the history of Pitcairn, it being settled by mutineers who embraced the culture of the island girls they took to wife, and so their outlaw state was outside UK law at the time of settlement. One could argue whether 7-10 generations down the line make a people indigenous, but certainly they were bred of women indigenous to the area.
If that society is content with its girls breeding just after puberty, as are many other cultures, then I say this is a cultural matter and well outside the rightful jurisdiction of the laws of England.

[Dogberry]

Originally Posted by Dreamscapist

In reading the article the SECOND time, I still saw no ages given, and had to search through other links to find this info, but it doesn't change my opinion.
I know the history of Pitcairn, it being settled by mutineers who embraced the culture of the island girls they took to wife, and so their outlaw state was outside UK law at the time of settlement. One could argue whether 7-10 generations down the line make a people indigenous, but certainly they were bred of women indigenous to the area.
If that society is content with its girls breeding just after puberty, as are many other cultures, then I say this is a cultural matter and well outside the rightful jurisdiction of the laws of England.

It is a UK dependency and has been for an awfully long time. The UK has an obligation to protect the children there.

As for having sex with the kids, countries have been invaded for less.

[Dreamscapist]

Originally Posted by Dogberry

It is a UK dependency and has been for an awfully long time. The UK has an obligation to protect the children there.

As for having sex with the kids, countries have been invaded for less.

Yes, I believe England has invaded countries for much less.

It's a shame how rampant imperialism systematically destroys independent cultures, tradition by tradition.

[Myrddin]

I think some of the girls involved were 12, which is far too young. I think the age of consent is 16 in the UK (Dogberry correct me if I am wrong) which is a good age in my view (correct level of sexual development to be able to give birth safely etc).

[general_motors]

Originally Posted by Dreamscapist

In reading the article the SECOND time, I still saw no ages given, and had to search through other links to find this info, but it doesn't change my opinion.
I know the history of Pitcairn, it being settled by mutineers who embraced the culture of the island girls they took to wife, and so their outlaw state was outside UK law at the time of settlement. One could argue whether 7-10 generations down the line make a people indigenous, but certainly they were bred of women indigenous to the area.
If that society is content with its girls breeding just after puberty, as are many other cultures, then I say this is a cultural matter and well outside the rightful jurisdiction of the laws of England.

I have to say I find your attitudes towards child sexual assault disgusting. I don't believe it's ever "culturally acceptable" to interfere with little girls.

This story has had a lot more coverage here in Australia and in New Zealand than elsewhere so I'll post some of the info that seems to be missing from the BBC report...

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydispl...portID=1162662

Quashing the myth that the case was brought against men engaged in consensual under-age sex, the three New Zealand judges said they were utterly convinced by six of the seven victims who testified by video-link from Auckland.

The women painted a picture of a dysfunctional society where men raped and abused young girls almost casually.

Some victims had bottled up the abuse for 40 years, disclosing it only when British detectives approached them in 2000.

The Chief Justice, Charles Blackie, poured scorn on Steve Christian's claim that one of his victims had consented.

"She was 12 years old. He was 21," he said. "She was young, naive and vulnerable. She was secreted into the bushes and there the accused took advantage of her.

"There had been no affection, kissing or romantic connection. She did not want it to happen."...

...Len Brown, 78 and barefoot, twice raped a teenager in a watermelon patch. Dave Brown, his 49-year-old son, carried out six indecent assaults.

Terry Young, 46, raped a girl every time she went to collect firewood.

Randy Christian, 30, raped a girl four times from the age of 10.

http://www.news.com.au/common/story_...55E401,00.html

Six Pitcairn men were found guilty yesterday of committing shocking child sex crimes over the past 40 years - including incest, rape and indecent assault against girls as young as seven...
Chief investigating officer Robert Vinson, of the Kent Constabulary, said after the decision he was "extremely pleased".
"It has been a very important day for Pitcairn Island," he said.
"These judgments today have sent a clear message that the abuse of children is not acceptable in any culture anywhere, and Pitcairn Island is no exception."

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydispl...portid=1162662

A former Pitcairner yesterday painted a picture of a wretched childhood in which she was frequently thrashed at home and sexually assaulted by several older men on the island.

The woman, now 38, broke down in tears after describing a household from which affection was wholly absent. She was treated as a servant by her parents, she said, and beaten with a jandal or broom made of coconut fronds if she disobeyed them.

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/com...55E663,00.html

Mayor Steve Christian, described by prosecutors as "the leader of the pack", was found guilty of five rapes of girls as young as 11, and acquitted of four indecent assaults and one rape.

His son Randy, chairman of the internal works committee, was found guilty of four rapes, including one gang rape of a 10-year-old, and five indecent assaults.

He was not found guilty of three indecent assaults and one rape.

Steve's brother-in-law, Dave "The Mouth" Brown, was guilty of six indecent assaults against girls as young as 12, and acquitted of six counts of indecent assault and gross indecency.

On the way into court, Brown waved toilet paper in the air and laughed aloud. When he left the court, he broke down in tears.

Dave's father Len Brown -- at 78 the oldest defendant -- was found guilty of twice raping a girl as young as 15.

Terry Young, 46, was guilty of one rape and six indecent assaults against girls as young as seven. One of the guilty men, Dennis Christian, had admitted three sexual assaults before his trial began.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydispl...portid=1162662

The present mayor of Pitcairn, Steve Christian, had a harem of young girls whom he sexually initiated when they reached puberty, the island's child-abuse trial heard yesterday.

A former islander alleged that Christian raped her twice when she was 12, once in bushland and once inside a boat at Bounty Bay, where Fletcher Christian and his fellow mutineers burned their ship to avoid detection after fleeing to Pitcairn. The mayor was 21 at the time.

In a statement made to police and read out at the trial in the Pitcairn Supreme Court, the woman, now 44 and living abroad, said: "Steve seemed to take it upon himself to initiate all the girls, and it was like we were his harem."

[Katalina]

Their families... how can they get firewood, do repairs on the houses, or do the carvings to get money for survival? It is absolutely impossible. It will be an artificial community."

Were they that dependent on these six men that they can’t do these things?

[Dreamscapist]

Originally Posted by general_motors

I have to say I find your attitudes towards child sexual assault a little disturbing. I don't believe it's ever "culturally acceptable" to interfere with little girls.

But it seems it was not "sexual assault" to any of the parties or families involved. What is "culturally acceptable" is what that particular culture defines as acceptable, not the definition outsiders impose upon them.

[general_motors]

Originally Posted by Katalina

Were they that dependent on these six men that they can’t do these things?

it's a very very small community. The irony is that these men may spend the next few years in a jail that all of them helped to build.

[general_motors]

Originally Posted by Dreamscapist

But it seems it was not "sexual assault" to any of the parties or families involved. What is "culturally acceptable" is what that particular culture defines as acceptable, not the definition outsiders impose upon them.

the serious lack of logic here is staggering. Why would all these women claim they were raped if they didn't see it as sexual assualt?!?!?

Your defense of people who rape 7 year olds is astounding. where do you live? I want to make sure I keep my children away from there, just in case you decide it's "culturally acceptable" for you to interfere with little girls too.

[Dreamscapist]

Originally Posted by general_motors

Your defense of people who rape 7 year olds is astounding. where do you live? I want to make sure I keep my children away from there, just in case you decide it's "culturally acceptable" for you to interfere with little girls too.

What the hell are you talking about?
First of all, where did the 7-year-old come in? I read 12-13.
Secondly, I never condoned rape, only consensual sex that the community sanctioned. Rape is rape and never acceptable.

[general_motors]

Originally Posted by Dreamscapist

What the hell are you talking about?
First of all, where did the 7-year-old come in? I read 12-13.
Secondly, I never condoned rape, only consenual sex that the community sanctioned. Rape is rape and never acceptable.

I guess you didn't bother to read my post then. Let me praphrase some of my quotes for you.

Quashing the myth that the case was brought against men engaged in consensual under-age sex, the three New Zealand judges said they were utterly convinced by six of the seven victims who testified by video-link from Auckland...

The Chief Justice, Charles Blackie, poured scorn on Steve Christian's claim that one of his victims had consented.
"She was 12 years old. He was 21," he said. "She was young, naive and vulnerable. She was secreted into the bushes and there the accused took advantage of her.
"There had been no affection, kissing or romantic connection. She did not want it to happen."...

Six Pitcairn men were found guilty yesterday of committing shocking child sex crimes over the past 40 years - including incest, rape and indecent assault against girls as young as seven...

"These judgments today have sent a clear message that the abuse of children is not acceptable in any culture anywhere, and Pitcairn Island is no exception."...

Randy, chairman of the internal works committee, was found guilty of four rapes, including one gang rape of a 10-year-old...

Terry Young, 46, was guilty of one rape and six indecent assaults against girls as young as seven...

Once you read all the facts pertaining to this case there can be no doubt that the claims of this behavior being culturally acceptable were merely excuses for actions by these men that are reprehensible and disgusting.

[Dreamscapist]

Additional facts brought to the thread after I had stated a position have indeed altered my perception of this particular case, but not my position in general. But to clarify:
Rape is always wrong and should be harshly punished.
The same goes for sex with pre-pubescent children.
BUT if one culture approves consensual sex with post-pubsescent but "underage" people, then it is not for an outside culture to interfere.

[general_motors]

Originally Posted by Dreamscapist

Additional facts brought to the thread after I had stated a position have indeed altered my perception of this particular case, but not my position in general. But to clarify:
Rape is always wrong and should be harshly punished.
The same goes for sex with pre-pubescent children.
BUT if one culture approves consensual sex with post-pubsescent but "underage" people, then it is not for an outside culture to interfere.

While I agree that the age of consent can be different depending on local cultural standards I also note that female circumcision is culturally accepted in some countries too, stoning adulterers is standard procedure in some countries in others death by hanging is the accepted method of dealing with adulterers. Just because it's part of a culture and just because it's not our concern does not make it right.

[Dreamscapist]

Originally Posted by general_motors

While I agree that the age of consent can be different depending on local cultural standards I also note that female circumcision is culturally accepted in some countries too, stoning adulterers is standard procedure in some countries in others death by hanging is the accepted method of dealing with adulterers. Just because it's part of a culture and just because it's not our concern does not make it right.

Mutilation and barbaric executions by mobs are hardly in the same league as consensual expressions of pleasure.

Ask an islamic extremist if there is anything they find offensive about YOUR culture that they would forcibly change, then consider whether they have the right to change it given they claim the perspective of a moral higher ground.