Amnesty International - Abu Ghraib

[SpabSFW]

http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,336...188048,00.html

Abuse allegations - Amnesty calls for inquiry

Amnesty International has called for an independent inquiry into the treatment of Iraqi prisoners by coalition troops in Iraq, saying complaints it had received pointed to a "pattern of torture". This follow the publication by US and British media of photos said to show alleged abuses of prisoners by US and British troops. The "New Yorker" magazine said it had obtained an internal US army report on alleged abuses at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad. A Pentagon spokesman declined comment on that but said the claims would be investigated. Several British TV stations on Sunday carried reports doubting the photos' authenticity. Britain's Sunday Telegraph said six junior British officers were being questioned in Cyprus. British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said a high-level probe was under way. The Telegraph said Britain might send 4,000 more troops to Iraq.


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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...soner_abuse_21

LONDON - Amnesty International said it has uncovered a "pattern of torture" of Iraqi prisoners by coalition troops, and called for an independent investigation into the claims of abuse.

The London-based human rights group said it had received "scores" of reports of ill treatment of detainees by British and American troops...

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Report: Iraq Prisoners Faced 'Sadistic' Abuses

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...on_report_dc_9

...The army report listed abuses such as "breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; ... beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick."


Written by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, the report said evidence included "detailed witness statements and the discovery of extremely graphic photographic evidence." ...

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TORTURE AT ABU GHRAIB

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

...Two Iraqi faces that do appear in the photographs are those of dead men. There is the battered face of prisoner No. 153399, and the bloodied body of another prisoner, wrapped in cellophane and packed in ice. There is a photograph of an empty room, splattered with blood.

The 372nd’s abuse of prisoners seemed almost routine—a fact of Army life that the soldiers felt no need to hide...

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The American press says it was isolated:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...prisoner_abuse

The British, predictably, say it never happened at all:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor.../1083180189879

"However, according to some reports sources in the Queen's Lancashire Regiment, from which the photographs are said to have been obtained, have questioned their authenticity. "

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor..._torture_dc_13

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The soldiers themselves seem to be stating that no one ever told them sadistically sexually torturing prisoners wasn't acceptable, hence they aren't liable. People have to be told this?

[86Dude]

AI is so far to the left, it is really, really, really tough to take anything they say seriously.

[SpabSFW]

Originally posted by 86Dude
AI is so far to the left, it is really, really, really tough to take anything they say seriously.

Well, the document came into the hands of The New Yorker. I have no idea what kind of paper that is since it's not my section of the country.

In any event, I documented it from a large variety of sources.

[86Dude]

Originally posted by SpabSFW


Well, the document came into the hands of The New Yorker. I have no idea what kind of paper that is since it's not my section of the country.

In any event, I documented it from a large variety of sources.

I wasn't doubting you or anything like that. This whole thing would have been better off not reported. The perps should be court martialed and executed if guilty IMO, way too much damage.

[SpabSFW]

Originally posted by 86Dude


I wasn't doubting you or anything like that. This whole thing would have been better off not reported. The perps should be court martialed and executed if guilty IMO, way too much damage.

I have to disagree. I think it's good that it is was reported because it's absolutely disgusting and must be stopped. When I first heard of it, it put me in mind of WWII concentration camps.

I read many of the abusers were contract, not military. They will have to be tried in regular criminal courts rather than military courts.

The new report says this abuse wasn't isolated and is in fact widespread. I hardly think any of this is going to win 'hearts and minds'.

If we aren't there for WMD and we aren't there to "help" the Iraqis, why ARE we there exactly?

[86Dude]

Originally posted by SpabSFW


I have to disagree. I think it's good that it is was reported because it's absolutely disgusting and must be stopped. When I first heard of it, it put me in mind of WWII concentration camps.

I read many of the abusers were contract, not military. They will have to be tried in regular criminal courts rather than military courts.

The new report says this abuse wasn't isolated and is in fact widespread. I hardly think any of this is going to win 'hearts and minds'.

If we aren't there for WMD and we aren't there to "help" the Iraqis, why ARE we there exactly?

The WMD has been beaten to death, so I won't even go there. I simply believe that sometimes it is better to abstain from sensational journalism for the greater good. A lot of ill will is going to come from this,and people are going to die on both sides. I am not advocating censorship, just logic I suppose. The perps responsible would get their punishment without the 60 minutes story etc. If people remember anything at all it will be this, the negative, and not one positive. Muslims sure know how to hold a grudge. Short of execution the soldiers responsible need the ever loving hell beat out of them.

[SpabSFW]

You may be right. I think there is some truth to say, overreporting school shootings increasing the number of them.

But on this one, I suspect the media coverage almost ensures it won't be repeated.

Hard to say, but I do see your point.

spabbo

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

A lot of ill will is going to come from this,and people are going to die on both sides.

I don't like your reasoning. You're saying it shouldn't be made public because of bad PR, while it shouldn't have happened in the first place. You should be outraged...

[86Dude]

Originally posted by Zaphod Beeblebrox


I don't like your reasoning. You're saying it shouldn't be made public because of bad PR, while it shouldn't have happened in the first place. You should be outraged...

I am outraged, read my posts. I am simply saying that more bad will come of this, and that the press should have kept that in mind. Nothing to do with PR, but the vengeance that will result. Muslims really know how to hold a grudge and I don't blame them for being mad. Sort of like if you choose to cheat on your wife, for godsake, don't turn into come clean, it will hurt her too much.

[jwreck]

While the things i've seen on these abuses are certainly degrading and outragous, isn't it a bit of a stretch to label them torture? I agree with 86, this should have been handled quietly. This publicity is only inspiring insurgents and causing more death. Now we need to publicly prosecute these "soldiers" who are guilty of these crimes.

[Jay GW]

The New Yorker

Very respectable publication. Read by "big wigs" in journalism, politics etc. Elitist magazine.

Has this been mentioned - as anyone familiar with the US federal government knows, it is extremely difficult due to legislation protecting workers, to fire federal workers. Military personnel, FBI, others are very hard to dismiss, not matter what they do.

I know a woman that runs a bankruptcy office in Dallas, Texas. It is a federal government office. She handles the businesses that must get protection from creditors, reorganize etc.

She told me stories about how half the staff shows up about an hour or two a day, and then goes home. She can't do anything! It's so hard to document in the way the legislation demands that no one bothers to get rid of extremely incompetent personnel. The government is just full of them.

Example:

On November 6, 2001, Senator Daschle stated he would like to fire the company (Argenbright) and workers that do baggage screening for airport security for poor performance and replace them with federal employees. The good news is that airlines can easily remove Argenbright or any of its workers for poor performance if they want to.

The bad news is that many members of Congress are proposing a solution, federal employees, that would make it nearly impossible to remove airport security workers in the future for poor performance. In fact, federal supervisors find the amount of time and energy that is required to remove a poor performer to be extremely long and daunting. Moreover, the removal process is often subverted by a poor performer’s counter-charges, grievances, accusations, appeals, general hostility and attempts to subvert the supervisor.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Regulation/WM54.cfm

[caddis]

Originally posted by SpabSFW
[LONDON - Amnesty International said it has uncovered a "pattern of torture" of Iraqi prisoners by coalition troops, and called for an independent investigation into the claims of abuse.

What great detective work. Did they uncover this info from 60 minutes or from a newstand magazine?

Wonder if they will call for an investigation of prisoner abuse by Insurgent forces?

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

I am outraged, read my posts.

Ok. I pologize.

Sort of like if you choose to cheat on your wife, for godsake, don't turn into come clean, it will hurt her too much.

Wrong comparison. If you can't take the heat of her finding out you shouldn't be cheating on her. She might find out another way.

While the things i've seen on these abuses are certainly degrading and outragous, isn't it a bit of a stretch to label them torture?

Are you serious? When is it torture then? If the Iraqi's would do it to an american soldier?

[lilnymph]

Originally posted by SpabSFW
The British, predictably, say it never happened at all:

Thats not strictly true is it Spabs. There is an investigation underway into it, its simply that some people have pointed out that the Gun and van shown in the pictures aren't the type the british troops are using, and that the pictures are of a pretty professional quality. Aren't people allowed to point out things that might make a report of Britain being evil turn out to be false?

hugs

lilnymph

[SpabSFW]

Originally posted by lilnymph


Thats not strictly true is it Spabs. There is an investigation underway into it, its simply that some people have pointed out that the Gun and van shown in the pictures aren't the type the british troops are using, and that the pictures are of a pretty professional quality. Aren't people allowed to point out things that might make a report of Britain being evil turn out to be false?

hugs

lilnymph

I was wondering where you were

hehehe

So how long do you think the inquiry will last, 40-50 years?

[86Dude]

Originally posted by Zaphod Beeblebrox
Are you serious? When is it torture then? If the Iraqi's would do it to an american soldier?

Yeah, if being forced to be a homo isn't torture then I don't know what is.

[SpabSFW]

Originally posted by 86Dude


Yeah, if being forced to be a homo isn't torture then I don't know what is.

Not to mention these little incidents:

"breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; ... beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick."

[Dreamscapist]

Originally posted by SpabSFW


Not to mention these little incidents:

"breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; ... sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light ."

They should take away those glow sticks if they're not gonna play nice with them. That sort of thing rarely happens at raves.