It all started in the Garden of Eden

[Cd.]

It was in the Garden that Man fell from Grace. Man had it all. Man lived in harmony with God and Nature. He was immortal. Man knew not sin or what was wrong. All was right. God talked to man face to face. Man could never die or do wrong in the sight of God. Then came the serpant. Man was tempted. First it was Eve who stood near Adam and offered the fruit. The choice was his: to choose to be ignorant, naked but happy and have eternal life. To have everything provided for him. Man had it all. Man did not need to get off his ass and work in the factory 8 hours a day. Man did not need to go to school. He did not need a college degree. Man did not need to buy the latest cloaths. He did not need to get medical treatment for ulcers. He did not need to buy insurance for his family. No... He had it all in the Garden.

What posessed Adam to take that bite? What coerced Eve to disobey the word of God? Was it the Serpant? The serpant was evil no doubt. But what did man seek from such disobedience? Was it knowledge? Maybe it was his own vanity. Man wanted to know as much as God. This is reoccurring throughout history. Man builds a tower to heaven but is struck down and men talk in toungs foreign to eachother. Man conquers the world. Was it not Nimrod, the mighty hunter before the Lord who first conquered the world. Alexander, Ceaser, Napolean, Hitler? Did they all want to be like God?

We now live in a time where life is not easy. In Adam's own time he knew conflict. Cain slew Abel. God did not seek Cain's death for this crime. He did not because the command he gave to Noah against slaying man did not apply yet. God did mark Cain and sent him forth. Today more murders occur than ever before. We may see a bloody war? Can we have peace? Does the sin of Adam condemn us to not seeing peace?

We are told that Christ will come again. Christ will come and stop man from killing. His Kingdom will be one of peace. Will it be then and only then that true peace shal come?

[Prodigal Son]

LOL. This would be a viable debate if Adam and Eve were anything more than a Middle-Eastern fairy-tale.

--Joseph.

[Truth Teller]

See,this is why I can't take the Bible literally.

I can see being kicked out of paradise for murder,rape or assult and battery,but for eating a damn apple?

No way.

I think the Old Testament is a mixture for Jewish history and Jewish folk tales told as parables,I think Adam and Eve is a parable,not a true story.

It's like did God really tell Abraham to kill his eldest son?

Or maybe it's more likely Abraham imagined he was told that by God ,but in reality wasn't told that.

As many a bumper sticker says:Eve was framed.

[Spießer]

Myth.

[Cd.]

Originally posted by Truth Teller
See,this is why I can't take the Bible literally.

I can see being kicked out of paradise for murder,rape or assult and battery,but for eating a damn apple?

No way.

I think the Old Testament is a mixture for Jewish history and Jewish folk tales told as parables,I think Adam and Eve is a parable,not a true story.

It's like did God really tell Abraham to kill his eldest son?

Or maybe it's more likely Abraham imagined he was told that by God ,but in reality wasn't told that.

As many a bumper sticker says:Eve was framed.

I do not take the Bible literaly at all but I see the creation of man as being an analogy of the human condition. On earth man was given a choice. He could have a one on one relationship with the creator. He could live at harmony with nature. He could be live as a child, naked, and happy but also be ignorant of the world. In a sense this is how all children are. We begin as children. We then have knowledge of all things. We no longer need our parents. We try to make it on our own. Some of us leave home. This is how it is with the creator. The Creator loved us and put us on earth. He gave us a stern commandment not to eat of the fruit of knowledge. Once this trust was broken man was punished. This is not to say that God stopped loving but he also knew the importance of justice. Man sinned and that sin stayed on man forever.

Today we, man continue to defy the will of God. We seek knowledge of all things but refuse to return to the Garden of Eden. We see ourselves as invincable and all knowledgeable but we cannot see the greatest secrete of the universe!

The Creation mythe is similar to the Greek mythe of Pandora. Pandora was given a box and told not to open it. But the desire to know what was unknown got the best of her.

[Truth Teller]

Originally posted by Criminal

I do not take the Bible literaly at all but I see the creation of man as being an analogy of the human condition. On earth man was given a choice. He could have a one on one relationship with the creator. He could live at harmony with nature. He could be live as a child, naked, and happy but also be ignorant of the world. In a sense this is how all children are. We begin as children. We then have knowledge of all things. We no longer need our parents. We try to make it on our own. Some of us leave home. This is how it is with the creator. The Creator loved us and put us on earth. He gave us a stern commandment not to eat of the fruit of knowledge. Once this trust was broken man was punished. This is not to say that God stopped loving but he also knew the importance of justice. Man sinned and that sin stayed on man forever.

Today we, man continue to defy the will of God. We seek knowledge of all things but refuse to return to the Garden of Eden. We see ourselves as invincable and all knowledgeable but we cannot see the greatest secrete of the universe!

The Creation mythe is similar to the Greek mythe of Pandora. Pandora was given a box and told not to open it. But the desire to know what was unknown got the best of her.

But how is knowledge a sin?

It would seem to me that ignorance is a sin,with knowledge you can do good works,with ignorance you don't really know what to do?.

This is heady philosophy and as I said earlier,I regard this as a parable to provoke thought.

I regard Biblical paprable as a philosophy book,I don't think I've read any philosophy book yet [and I'l admit ,I haven't read that many] that I agree with all of it,or that I disagree with all of it.

With the exception of certain parts of the Old Testament that I regard as history [like Moses leading Eygpt out of slavery] I think The Bible is a philosophy book [as opposed to the literal word of God] and like all philosophy books I've read so far,I agree with parts of it and disagree with parts of it.

[Cd.]

Originally posted by Truth Teller


But how is knowledge a sin?

It would seem to me that ignorance is a sin,with knowledge you can do good works,with ignorance you don't really know what to do?.

This is heady philosophy and as I said earlier,I regard this as a parable to provoke thought.

I regard Biblical paprable as a philosophy book,I don't think I've read any philosophy book yet [and I'l admit ,I haven't read that many] that I agree with all of it,or that I disagree with all of it.

With the exception of certain parts of the Old Testament that I regard as history [like Moses leading Eygpt out of slavery] I think The Bible is a philosophy book [as opposed to the literal word of God] and like all philosophy books I've read so far,I agree with parts of it and disagree with parts of it.

I do not necessarily see knowledge as a sin but rather man had the choice. God truely loved man but his love was similar to a father who tries to keep his children away from the world but looses in the end. We, that is to say Man is continuously led astray by evil. Our curiousity gets the best of us. We think we know the answers and God, being the father gives us our freedom only to see us show beaten and bloody at his door. He stands above us and says "See what happens when you dont listen". This is like the parable of the prodigal son. Well these are my thoughts anyway.

[sapience]

If God is the source of good, and what is evil is that which is against God, then even the tiniest thing that goes against God is evil. That's why Jesus said that if you break even the tiniest portion of the law, you have broken the entire law; it is not the law itself, but the fact that in breaking the law, whether it be to murder or to eat the fruit, you are in fact stating your defiance of God, and a desire to be your own god. According to the Bible, God said, if you love me, you will obey my commandments. Correspondence: if you don't obey my commandments, you do not love me.

[Truth Teller]

Originally posted by sapience
If God is the source of good, and what is evil is that which is against God, then even the tiniest thing that goes against God is evil. That's why Jesus said that if you break even the tiniest portion of the law, you have broken the entire law; it is not the law itself, but the fact that in breaking the law, whether it be to murder or to eat the fruit, you are in fact stating your defiance of God, and a desire to be your own god. According to the Bible, God said, if you love me, you will obey my commandments. Correspondence: if you don't obey my commandments, you do not love me.

May I ask a qestion [and I'm not bing a wise guy]?.

Do you believe God asked Abraham to kill hs son?

If so,why would God put a person through such a greuling choice?

Why shouldn't that choice be seen as mean-sprited?

[TheGreatMonkey]

I blaim god for putting the tree in the gardon in the first place.

[Unrepresented]

We have higher "empathy" than other animals, we'll stop "sinning" when we've bred that out of us.

Justin

[Katalina]

If this is all true, then God likes playing games. I’m not buying that a god would do this. If so then great, can’t wait to me him!(Sarcasm)

God: (Hehe) Watch this. I’m going to put this tree in the garden, it will be prettier than the rest.
Now I’m going to tell them “Don’t eat the fruit of thy tree. Eat all others but not this one”
They are so going to want to eat that fruit. Like telling a 3 year old “look! Candy! Now don’t touch it..


Maybe he had that planned out. Just so they would know all things. That still does not make any sense. Why not just tell them to begin with. Why all the mind games? Then he gives out punishment. Women: I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception. In pain you shall bring forth children.
Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you. What!? So it’s her fault that I had pain giving birth to my children? No I had pain giving birth because it’s really difficult pushing out a 7lb baby out of a cervix.


More than ever in my own life. I want to understand. I really do! I don’t laugh or make fun of people who do believe in God. I have some really great friends on here that do and I love them dearly. People should have something to believe in, no matter what it is. (Shrug)

[sapience]

Originally posted by Truth Teller


May I ask a qestion [and I'm not bing a wise guy]?.

Do you believe God asked Abraham to kill hs son?

If so,why would God put a person through such a greuling choice?

Why shouldn't that choice be seen as mean-sprited?

Think about the context. God has already promised Abraham that Isaac is the promised son through whom God will make Abraham into a great nation. Isaac was born of a miracle--Sarah was over 90 years old when she had Isaac, and what woman can have children at that age?

Then God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son to God. This is a God who has aready proved his faithfulness, in several miracles, in coming down and meeting with Abraham. The book of Hebrews (yes, a book written a thousand years later) says that Abraham believed that God would raise Isaac from the dead if he sacrificed him. Whether you believe that or not, Abraham did have faith that God would provide a way out.

It was a test of faith, and I think Abraham knew it. Abraham didn't know exactly what the test entailed, but he put his trust completely in a God with whom he already had a personal relationship, with a God who had made an oath to him that Abraham would be made into a great nation through Isaac. Abraham wasn't a fool, so he followed, and God fulfilled his promise to Abraham.

In the end, it wasn't mean spirited. It proved to Abraham that yes, God would not renege on his promises, even at that late date. God would always provide a substitute, and provides a "type" for the coming of Jesus. God never demands of us what he would not do himself. He demanded the sacrifice of Isaac, but didn't make Abraham follow through. He demanded the sacrifice of his own son, Jesus, but he didn't back out. Jesus was both the son and the ram, the substitute sacrifice.

[sapience]

Originally posted by Katalina
If this is all true, then God likes playing games. I’m not buying that a god would do this. If so then great, can’t wait to me him!(Sarcasm)

God: (Hehe) Watch this. I’m going to put this tree in the garden, it will be prettier than the rest.
Now I’m going to tell them “Don’t eat the fruit of thy tree. Eat all others but not this one”
They are so going to want to eat that fruit. Like telling a 3 year old “look! Candy! Now don’t touch it..

Posts: 961

If this is all true, then God likes playing games. I’m not buying that a god would do this. If so then great, can’t wait to me him!(Sarcasm)

God: (Hehe) Watch this. I’m going to put this tree in the garden, it will be prettier than the rest.
Now I’m going to tell them “Don’t eat the fruit of thy tree. Eat all others but not this one”
They are so going to want to eat that fruit. Like telling a 3 year old “look! Candy! Now don’t touch it..

Maybe he had that planned out. Just so they would know all things. That still does not make any sense. Why not just tell them to begin with. Why all the mind games? Then he gives out punishment. Women: I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception. In pain you shall bring forth children.
Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you. What!? So it’s her fault that I had pain giving birth to my children? No I had pain giving birth because it’s really difficult pushing out a 7lb baby out of a cervix.

More than ever in my own life. I want to understand. I really do! I don’t laugh or make fun of people who do believe in God. I have some really great friends on here that do and I love them dearly. People should have something to believe in, no matter what it is. (Shrug)

The tree in the garden is a symbol, at least on one level. It is a symbol of the choice God gave us, to either freely obey him, or freely disobey him. If there is no choice, there is no freedom. If God hadn't put the tree in the garden, we wouldn't be free creatures; we would have no choice but to follow his will, because there would be nothing that we could do that was against his will. He might have chosen something else, true. But the tree wasn't more beautiful than all the others. That's like saying a pear is more beautiful than an apple. There were other trees in that garden that were just as beautiful--the tree of life, for example, which they could have any time they wanted.

God doesn't play games. He wants for us, more than anything, to be in a relationship with him. If you don't have a choice but to be friends with someone, can you actually really be friends? Or, even if you can, is it true friendship? I don't think so. God isn't playing games, he's showing us he values our freedom as much as we do.

God did tell Adam and Eve the punishment: death. He in fact mitigated the punishment when he gave them the opportunity to live outside the garden, however much harder it would be. He gave them an opportunity to get back into a relationship with him.

[Emortio]

Remember in the Matrix, where the AI put the humans into a perfect world... But the human mind rejected. We thrive on problems, we crave to solve problems. Anyone in a perfect society desires something to do otherwise they'd get bored. Maybe Adam was like that too, he rejected the perfect life for something else. OR he took it for granted *shrug*

[Truth Teller]

Originally posted by TheGreatMonkey
I blaim god for putting the tree in the gardon in the first place.

Good point,which brings up another belief of mine,the belieif that God isn't perefct.

If God is perefct that means he could have dispensed of "free will" and made us perfect.

If God could have made us prefect and didn't,why should we get the blame when we fall?

Originally posted by sapience


Think about the context. God has already promised Abraham that Isaac is the promised son through whom God will make Abraham into a great nation. Isaac was born of a miracle--Sarah was over 90 years old when she had Isaac, and what woman can have children at that age?

Then God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son to God. This is a God who has aready proved his faithfulness, in several miracles, in coming down and meeting with Abraham. The book of Hebrews (yes, a book written a thousand years later) says that Abraham believed that God would raise Isaac from the dead if he sacrificed him. Whether you believe that or not, Abraham did have faith that God would provide a way out.

It was a test of faith, and I think Abraham knew it. Abraham didn't know exactly what the test entailed, but he put his trust completely in a God with whom he already had a personal relationship, with a God who had made an oath to him that Abraham would be made into a great nation through Isaac. Abraham wasn't a fool, so he followed, and God fulfilled his promise to Abraham.

In the end, it wasn't mean spirited. It proved to Abraham that yes, God would not renege on his promises, even at that late date. God would always provide a substitute, and provides a "type" for the coming of Jesus. God never demands of us what he would not do himself. He demanded the sacrifice of Isaac, but didn't make Abraham follow through. He demanded the sacrifice of his own son, Jesus, but he didn't back out. Jesus was both the son and the ram, the substitute sacrifice.

While I respect your intereptation I still don't agree with it.

It's just like Job,yes he got a new family but that doesn't replace the one he lost.

I choose to believe that Abraham believed that God told him to sacrifce his son but that didn't happen,but God did prevent Abraham from doing that.

[lily]

Thank God for sapience. Excellent answers, as usual!

[sapience]

Originally posted by Truth Teller

Good point,which brings up another belief of mine,the belieif that God isn't perefct.

If God is perefct that means he could have dispensed of "free will" and made us perfect.

If God could have made us prefect and didn't,why should we get the blame when we fall?

I am perfectly willing to admit that God is limited; that is, that he could not have dispensed of free will and made the human race without the possibility of sin. But, before either side lambasts me for this, consider this: If God exists, is not God limited by his own nature? Can God cease to exist? No, this is what is called a metaphysical impossibility. God cannot create a creature with a soul that does not have free will, because a soul entails free will. Once choosing to create man in his own image, and to give him a soul that could respond in a meaningful way to God, God limited the ways in which he could create man; he limited the nature of man to that of having free will.

Another thing to consider is this: God did make us perfect. However, he did not make us so that we could not crack and be broken. We toddled around and managed to create a huge crack. God could have tossed us out with the garbage, but he chose instead to offer to fix us.

But in any case, your response to this was anticipated almost two thousand years ago:

One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to him who fromed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

God does allow us to do wrong because he wants what is ultimately best for us: that is, to come to him freely and willingly. He uses our sin to bring greater good, often over periods of time that we cannot even begin to see. David's sin with Bathsheba, and his murder of her husband is an example of this: Christ was a descendent of David and Bathsheba. It took almost a thousand years for good to come of adultery and murder, but God used it to bring forth the ultimate sacrifice for human beings, one that would save all who wish to be saved.

You're right that Job's new family didn't replace the one he lost. But there's something bigger in this picture. Through the suffering, through the loss, Job got a glimpse of God. He was brought back into a right relationship with God, which, by the standards we see in the Bible, is more important and more beautiful and more precious even than family. It is terribly sad, but through sadness, greater things come.

[Banky]

Adam faced the same type ot temptation that Jesus did with Satan:

(Luke 4:1 KJV) And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

(Luke 4:2 KJV) Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.

(Luke 4:3 KJV) And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.

(Luke 4:4 KJV) And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Note that Jesus as tempted because He was hungry. He responded that food was not the issue. Remember what Genesis said about the fruit?

(Gen 3:6 KJV) And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

It was good for food. Eve chose to disobey God and eat it because it was a lust of the flesh, the desire for food when she already had all kinds of food aroundhere in perfect form.

(Luke 4:5 KJV) And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

(Luke 4:6 KJV) And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

(Luke 4:7 KJV) If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

(Luke 4:8 KJV) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Note here, Jesus is offered the worship of all kingdoms in Earth RIGHT NOW, not through the genuine worship done in a way that God plans, but one where the worship would be dependant upon Satan working in men's hearts to not fear Jesus or worry about their own selves, but turn to Him as their God on Satan's terms. Jesus responded in the right way, in choosing to worship God alone, not allowing Satan to be the one responsible for the worship of God, for that would make Satan the Saviour!

Eve's temptation would be the same thing, the desire for something beautiful, the lust of the eyes, this is a type of offer of all the world's worship.

Finally, Christ's temptation is like the final description to Eve of the fruit, that it was to make oneself wise and able to stand on her own, self sufficient.

(Luke 4:9 KJV) And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:

(Luke 4:10 KJV) For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:

(Luke 4:11 KJV) And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

(Luke 4:12 KJV) And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

(Luke 4:13 KJV) And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.

This is called the pride of life, the idea that we can just live any way we want to. Without God in charge, just a tool for us to use instead of worship. Eve suffereed this same temptation with the forbidden fruit, for as Satan said, it would make her just like God,knowig good and evil.

The point in the connection between the two temptations, is to look at Jesus answer: What did God say? Obey what God said.

Exactly why Adam and Eve ate the fruit, I really don't know, all I know is they ate it, they disobeyed. It is just not in men to obey God through our own flesh, at least in any lasting way, and if we do obey, it would be mostly to be something for our own benefit, not the glory of God.

[Banky]

Originally posted by Truth Teller


But how is knowledge a sin?

It would seem to me that ignorance is a sin,with knowledge you can do good works,with ignorance you don't really know what to do?.

It is not knowlege that is a sin. Disobeying God is sin.