Supporting democracy and freedom

[BooRadley]

Iran 1953 - CIA overthrows a democratically elected government and installs a dictatorship.

Guatemala 1954 - CIA overthrows a democratically elected government and sets up a string of military governments.

Turkey 1960 - CIA overthrows a democratically elected government and establishes a military juanta.

Democratic Republic of the Congo 1960 - CIA overthrows a democratically elected government in a military coup.

Brazil 1964 - CIA overthrows a democratically elected government and sets up a military dictatorship.

Chile 1973 - CIA overthrows a democratically elected government and creates a military juanta led by General Augusto Pinochet.

Argentina 1976 - US federal government provides minimal support during the overthrow of the democratically elected government to the brutally oppressive military government that perpetrated the coup.

Republic of Ghana 1966 - CIA overthrows Democratically elected government.

Guatemala 1993 - CIA overthrew democratically elected President, who then suspended the constitution, and dissolved the supreme court and the congress in an attempt to hold power.

Venezuela 2002 - US federal government funds and supports attempt to overthrow the democratically elected government.

Palestinian Authority, 2006-Present - US federal government provides support, plus nearly 100 million in weapons to Fatah -- an arm of the PLO -- to overthrow the democratically elected government, however bad it may be.

Venezuela 2007 - CIA probably supported a coup attempt against the democratically elected government.

Also rans . . .

Cuba 1959 - US backs incredibly corrupt and brutally oppressive Batista dictatorship.

Iraq 1968 - US federal government and the CIA bribe Ba'ath party leaders and support their rise to power in Iraq.

Afghanistan 1973-74 - US federal government funds and arms Islamic terrorists.

Afghanistan 1978-1980s - US federal government funds and arms Islamic terrorists.

Iran 1980 - US federal government supports Saddam Hussein's attack on Iran.

Nicaragua 1981-1990 - CIA supports, arms and trains Contra terrorist group and death squads, which had been outlawed in the US. Also mines harbors and sinks ships.

Iraq 1992-1995 - CIA runs a terrorist bombing campaign in Iraq, targeting both government and civilians.

Somalia 2006-2007 - CIA funds various war lords

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_spo..._regime_change

So, why do you suppose so much of the world, especially in South America and the Mideast, hate the United States so much? I mean, especially since we support democracy and freedom.

Also, why are you, as a tax pay, funding terrorist groups, death squads and dictatorships? How much of your paycheck do you suppose goes to this sort of thing in your lifetime?

[DamnYankee]

Leftists.

[Dick Tator]

Originally Posted by DamnYankee

Leftists.

He's right.

[BooRadley]

Originally Posted by DamnYankee

Leftists.

Brilliant post. Thanks for contributing.

[DamnYankee]

No problem.

Pretty damn accurate though.

[86Dude]

It's funny how Americans are so quick to forget the fact that it was the U.S. the bankrolled the Lenin's october revolution, now way, can't be true.

[Old World Order]

The US is about US interests, not democracy and freedom. Why would you think otherwise? No nation is ever about 'ideals' for very long. They either fail or they adapt.

Why did you make the thread, though?

[DamnYankee]

Originally Posted by Old World Order

The US is about US interests, not democracy and freedom. Why would you think otherwise?

Perhaps you are right.

The left has slowly dismantled our freedoms for many years now.

[86Dude]

Originally Posted by Old World Order

The US is about US interests, not democracy and freedom. Why would you think otherwise? No nation is ever about 'ideals' for very long. They either fail or they adapt.

Why did you make the thread, though?

Last time I noticed Switzerland, Ireleland, Iceland, and Sweden hadn't failed, oh wait Iceland almost did.

[86Dude]

Originally Posted by Old World Order

The US is about US interests, not democracy and freedom. Why would you think otherwise? No nation is ever about 'ideals' for very long. They either fail or they adapt.

Why did you make the thread, though?

Thanks Henry.

You see folks this is really how simple it is to justify murder, depopulation, unending wars, bioweapons, every despicable thing on the planet via the hegemonic survival of the D.C. superstate. You'll have your freedom or we'll kill you damn it. We should start teaching this in kindergarten.

[Old World Order]

Originally Posted by 86Dude

Last time I noticed Switzerland, Ireleland, Iceland, and Sweden hadn't failed, oh wait Iceland almost did.

Originally Posted by 86Dude

Thanks Henry.

You see folks this is really how simple it is to justify murder, depopulation, unending wars, bioweapons, every despicable thing on the planet via the hegemonic survival of the D.C. superstate. You'll have your freedom or we'll kill you damn it. We should start teaching this in kindergarten.

You couldn't decide on what to say?

Those nations hadn't what? Hadn't stopped acting through ideals? Ummm...you might want to fact check yourself there.

Your other response- I guess the B response?- is kind of odd. Do you think people shouldn't work in their best interests? Just...strange.

[86Dude]

You don't see swedish or irish boots on the ground in Afghanistan acting in their imperial interests do you? You don't have to work in your nations best interest by taking the monroe doctrine to extreme levels or being the worlds fist. Granted, if the U.S. were to become switzerland overnight we would be a 5th world country, but that's fine by me, because I want it to die.

[BooRadley]

The majority of the people in the US don't benefit from those dictatorships. Only a handful of people with investments in those countries benefited, and the rest of us had to pay the bill for them.

[Old World Order]

Originally Posted by 86Dude

You don't see swedish or irish boots on the ground in Afghanistan acting in their imperial interests do you? You don't have to work in your nations best interest by taking the monroe doctrine to extreme levels or being the worlds fist. Granted, if the U.S. were to become switzerland overnight we would be a 5th world country, but that's fine by me, because I want it to die.

Again...I really wouldn't know where to start here...you know those nations flourished through the umbrellas of American protection and the Marshall Plan- although it didn't directly go to them, it went to there major trade partners- right? You're aware that Sweden was one of the forefronts of the Cold War, right, and that their government was able to focus on things other than military spending because the US did, right? Or...you just think it was a coincidence that these nations were able to basically ignore national defense and common Western interests abroad - both of which they profited from- while the US did the heavy lifting? Come on 86, what the ****? This is getting old dude. Research something before you spew a random talking point.

Originally Posted by BooRadley

The majority of the people in the US don't benefit from those dictatorships. Only a handful of people with investments in those countries benefited, and the rest of us had to pay the bill for them.

Totally incorrect. Like outrageously incorrect. Unless you want to pretend the skyrocketing living standard of the West after WWII was a coincidence?

[86Dude]

Originally Posted by Old World Order

Again...I really wouldn't know where to start here...you know those nations flourished through the umbrellas of American protection and the Marshall Plan- although it didn't directly go to them, it went to there major trade partners- right? You're aware that Sweden was one of the forefronts of the Cold War, right, and that their government was able to focus on things other than military spending because the US did, right? Or...you just think it was a coincidence that these nations were able to basically ignore national defense and common Western interests abroad - both of which they profited from- while the US did the heavy lifting? Come on 86, what the ****? This is getting old dude. Research something before you spew a random talking point.



Totally incorrect. Like outrageously incorrect. Unless you want to pretend the skyrocketing living standard of the West after WWII was a coincidence?

Well there is really no point in arguing with you about anything if your defense always falls back to "if it wouldn't have been the U.S. fighting the cold war and financing the european defence" now is there? I used to apply the same logic not so long ago so I'm familiar with it. We could also apply what if's to what if the U.S. had never entered WWI and WWII. We can play this game all day.

[cellularsociety]

Originally Posted by Old World Order

The US is about US interests, not democracy and freedom. Why would you think otherwise? No nation is ever about 'ideals' for very long. They either fail or they adapt.

Why did you make the thread, though?

Assuming you are correct then the measure we ought to be making is whether these efforts really did work out in the best interests of the US - in particular we should consider short term vs long term benefits and costs.

Mark

[neutrino78x]

Originally Posted by 86Dude

You don't see swedish or irish boots on the ground in Afghanistan acting in their imperial interests do you?

We went into Afghanistan to fight people who threatened our national security, not any imperial interests.

If you said this about Iraq, I would agree, but I support our attack on Al Qaeda in Afghanistan.

I think many of our foreign interventions over the years have been ill advised or even morally wrong, but Afghanistan is not in that category for me.

--Brian

[86Dude]

Originally Posted by neutrino78x

We went into Afghanistan to fight people who threatened our national security, not any imperial interests.

If you said this about Iraq, I would agree, but I support our attack on Al Qaeda in Afghanistan.

I think many of our foreign interventions over the years have been ill advised or even morally wrong, but Afghanistan is not in that category for me.

--Brian

It's all the same Brian. I hate to burst your bubble with reality checks but there is no security threat there that needs to be checked because no security is possible in a place like that unless it's with an iron fist. So with this in mind, the logic for being there only exists for the folks in DC and people like OWO here who believe in the national interest of the United States outweighs the ways and means. The people suffering on the ground probably don't agree.

[Old World Order]

Originally Posted by 86Dude

Well there is really no point in arguing with you about anything if your defense always falls back to "if it wouldn't have been the U.S. fighting the cold war and financing the european defence" now is there? I used to apply the same logic not so long ago so I'm familiar with it. We could also apply what if's to what if the U.S. had never entered WWI and WWII. We can play this game all day.

You're familiar with it? Pray tell, what evidence caused you to change your mind?

Originally Posted by cellularsociety

Assuming you are correct then the measure we ought to be making is whether these efforts really did work out in the best interests of the US - in particular we should consider short term vs long term benefits and costs.

Well, what's your analysis?

[neutrino78x]

Originally Posted by 86Dude

It's all the same Brian. I hate to burst your bubble with reality checks but there is no security threat there that needs to be checked because no security is possible in a place like that unless it's with an iron fist.

True, but the initial purpose in going in was to destroy Al Qaeda's infrastructure, and if possible kill bin Laden, who was being protected by the Taliban. bin Laden lead the organization which destroyed the twin towers on 9/11. So, I support that action.

The people suffering on the ground probably don't agree.

True, that's why war should always be a last resort, and as short as possible, with as few casualties as possible.

--Brian