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#1
10-09-2009, 04:42 PM
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US Civil War and ReDEstruction
This topic comes up on other threads, mostly political debate.
Usually, it starts with a sympathizer for the "southern states", complaining about the shoddy treatment received by the South, during and after the US Civil War (1861-1865). My take: Our Civil War was a series of six major clusterfloks, which happened in chronological order. From start to finish... -The founding fathers refused to deal with the issue of slavery, but they made a provision in the US constitution to keep it legal and consider slaves 3/5 of a person for purposes of the census. Clusterflok #1: It is a really bad idea to change your system of government from a Confederacy to a Federation, without resolving the definition of what "a person" is. -This issue is then placed on the back burner of the stove, until the stove blows up and burns down the house. One pre-war solution is placed, the "free states" entry into the Union. To balance for every state that legally allows slavery, new states admitted into the Federation (USA) must outlaw slavery. The Republican Party, brand-spanking new on the national scene in the 1850's, has abolition as one of its' major platforms. 1860: the party manages to get it's first president elect -Abraham Lincoln. The Southern States see the writing on the wall, and know the "free states" compromise isn't going to stand much longer. They fire the first shot in the Civil War, very soon after Abe Lincoln takes office. Clusterflok #2: It is a really bad idea to go up against the central gov't. immediately, just because you know they will try and bring your way of life down through legal means. Legal means take time, which is sorely needed by a region preparing for Civil War. Clusterflok #3: Lincoln pushed for an immediate end to the free states compromise, rather than propose an immediate conference with the Southern states' representatives, to guarantee their way of life for one generation. "Phasing out" slavery, if you will. Completely unethical as far as slavery goes, but a smart political move that might have provided the North some breathing room as well. It may have even avoided the Civil War. -The Civil War: War is Hell, and all that. Not much to say here, IMO. It might strike some as strange, but my take on the US Civil war is that the vast majority of mistakes that damaged our Republic were made before and after the war. Since the Republic fought the war, the South deserved to lose. -The Reconstruction, or as I prefer, the Redestruction of the South after the Civil War. An excellent idea which was then turned into the Devil's own sewer, if you will. Our Republic suffers the consequences of Re-destruction to this day. After winning the war, the political hero of the North, Abe Lincoln, had prepared a plan with his cabinet and certain members of Congress: the Reconstruction of the Southern states, which should allow them to re-build and change over to a non slave-based economy. Lincoln's cabinet members helped the North execute the war in victorious fashion. Clusterflok #4: Unfortunately, too many of these same close associates had the moral fiber of Ghengis Khan. Their motto was demonstrated: "what is conquered, is fair plunder". Now, Abe Lincoln was by most accounts a man of morals, and kept these associates in check with his intellect and charisma. Unfortunately...Clusterflok #5: Abe caught a bullet in the back of the head, assassinated by conspirators who thought they were avenging the South. The one significant moral brake -Abe- was removed. This allowed his scumbag associates free reign over criminal acts -known as "carpetbagging"- in the south. Funds that were supposed to re-build infrastructure didn't quite make it to their destination. Northern "business experts" went down south as "consultants" to "help" survivors "establish" viable business and trade. If you want to know why I placed so many quotation marks, simply insert the words "con-artists", "screw-up" and "steal" as needed. Rather than apologize or even recognize the enormous damage the post war re-destruction did to the South, US History text book propaganda typically notes a minor concern with carpetbaggers, and everything nowadays is just peachy, thank you. This last one is a serious mistake that we are making yet today: let's just name it Clusterflok #6, for short-hand reference. Most northerners today still can't figure out why the South seems so stubborn, why too many places there cannot yet pull themselves out of economic and social backwardness. Although I was born and raised in the upper midwest, I eventually figured it out.  
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#3
10-12-2009, 03:03 PM
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And why not? If a person commits a crime against another, but does nothing to even define what was wrong, let alone apologize for it, there is no place to go from there. The criminal cannot be forgiven, and the victim must be wary of the criminal.
As far as the Civil War itself is concerned, the Union had less to apologize for than the CSA. I even imagine that the vast majority of Southerners would admit to that. By my perspective, the most important reason the North is unforgiven is the failure to even acknowledge that the re-destruction was a massive screw-up after the war. This particular reason was (and continues to be) a giant thorn in the side of our Republic.
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#4
10-12-2009, 03:13 PM
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The South was wrong.
Whichever way you look at it. Just wrong and they deserved to get their asses kicked both during and after the war. Mind you they put up a good fight aided and abetted by some truly appalling Generalship from the north, mostly McLellan. But at the end of it was the North even breathing hard?
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#5
10-12-2009, 10:33 PM
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Kicking ass during a war is the goal, after all. But kicking ass after is at best, counter-productive. This was proven by the immovable misery and ignorance in some parts of the south, even today. Closer to Dogberry's home, this point was also proven by the hellish clowns who called themselves diplomats at the Versailles conference, post World War I. To extact widespread revenge after a war is to inspire a vengeful foe with nothing to lose.
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#6
10-13-2009, 10:43 AM
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The problem with WWI wasnt versaille it was the fact that germany was never crushed militarily, thus because germany itself wasnt invaded it gave credence to the 'we were betrayed by jews' propaganda. I dont think you can blame the North circa 1865 for ignorance and misery today. I guess the south would have benefitted a great deal more had Lincoln lived. They were the architects of their own doom. The southern economy was based on cotton piucked by slaves. After the war the slaves werent available and the cotton mills of Europe had, by necessity found alternatives sources of material. I am not sure what the north could have done. They remind me of the Scots, hell even the conferdate flag is based on the Scottish Saltire, Whingeing perennial victims, every once in a while we have to send up an army to give them a beating. OK they enjoyed one or two fleeting successes but mostly the came a miserable second. if you live in what is basically a hostile envirmont have an economy centred on agriculture and expolitation and base an entire culture on envy and prejudice you get what you deserve.
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Last edited by Dogberry; 10-13-2009 at 10:48 AM.
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#7
10-13-2009, 12:49 PM
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Although post WWI Germany had an intact military, this was hobbled by Versailles. This was not nearly as important as the economic consequences imposed on Germany. We could not calculate just how many Germans voted based on a misery index, but it is worthy speculation that this was a very significant factor in the quick failure of the Weimar Republic, as well as the rise of the Nazi party.
Similar results in the southern USA, post Civil War. Based on the lasting measure of economic punishment they received, voters there would oppose everything that represented the Union victory and re-destruction. "Dixiecrats" were democrat politicians who barely hid their racism, even as they were populists who propagandized for the poor, working class whites. Thoroughly corrupt, since they were virtually unopposed for elected office for 100 years after the "reconstruction" had ended. That is how long it took for Republicans to make inroads into the south. Depending on how well or poorly they are planned, decisions do have an effect on our affairs, even decades after they are made.
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#8
10-13-2009, 06:08 PM
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We killed more filthy invaders from the United States then they did of us. Yes and I say us because I'm the bonifed son of 3 confederate veterans, and would gladly turn a gun on the United States government. As as a matter of fact once this place evaporates into a 3rd world free for all I will be shooting at as many as those bastards as I possibly can. That's the power of PURE HATE.
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#9
10-13-2009, 06:22 PM
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But one question, Dude: were it not for the re-destruction, post Civil War, would your passion be as high?
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#10
10-13-2009, 10:33 PM
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Probably. There is a major civil war battlefield near my house. Coincidentally my ancestors owned the land during the civil war and up until it was seized and made into a national park. They were booted out, their land taken and so on. Most of my animosity is because of that event and it is passed on to each generation so that we don't forget those who fought there, lived there, and got kicked out on their ass.
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#11
10-14-2009, 10:47 AM
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Sorry but the south was just plain bad. Prolly still is. backward, racist and ignorant. Probably a legacy of all those Scottish immigrants. I think Britain and france sold to both sides, hey business is business. Quote:
However what leaps out to me as an unbiased observer is that the nroth and South of the US just dont like eachother that much. I really is that simple.
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#12
10-14-2009, 01:12 PM
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The discord between North & South would still exist, just because one side had to lose the civil war. Just as there are minor, leftover conflicts of a religious & social nature, due to England's Civil War.
It is speculation on my part, but I believe that discord would be very minor if the North had managed a true re-construction along the lines of the Marshall Plan, post WWII. The truly pissed in the South would be confined to people like Dude, whose ancestors were (apparently) plantation owners or close associates of PO's. It's good to be king, so descendants of a king might never forgive those who deposed the monarchy. The rest of the south: working class, common farmers, most business owners and former slaves, would be well over the defeat of the south by now. However, even a descendant of a slave who lives in the south, suffers some negative economic and social affects that are directly attributable to the re-destruction of the south. There was only a long-delayed effort to re-direct the South's economy, even to complement rather than compete against the industrialized North. Those honest efforts to integrate and re-build the South, such as the national highway system, clearly paid quick benefits to the whole nation. Unfortunately, most of these true reconstruction efforts came nearly 100 years late. Better late than never, but waiting 80-100 years is really pushing it.
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#13
10-14-2009, 01:28 PM
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Dude mistrusts all authority with a passion. I am not sure he'd like a southern Government any greater than a US one, he certainly would not like their cops.
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#14
10-14-2009, 01:32 PM
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My problem with the civil war is all the bs propoganda that surrounds it. The demonization of everything southern, the idolization of Abe Lincoln, the hero status of other true villians such as Sherman, etc. Very few people know anything about the civil war other than the typical bs that it was all fought to free the slaves. Its a true exercise in ignorance to even talk about the civil war with most people.
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I represent the angry, gun toting meat eating people. ~ Denis Leary The same shepherd that keeps the wolves away leads the flock to the slaughterhouse. The fact that no one understands you doesn't make you an artist.
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#15
10-14-2009, 01:45 PM
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Sherman said 'war is hell' if he knew the path to real subjugation lay in laying waste to the land. Ruthless definately.
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#16
10-14-2009, 08:37 PM
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God's and generals and gettysburg kind of get on your nerves after awhile for some reason. But they don't exactly demonize the north if at all. The movies are both from the southern perspective but are apolitical in many respects. Pretty much every civil war movie ever made has done nothing but demonize the south, it hardly seems fair to moan about a pair of relatively unknown movies that show it from a different perspective. It's as if everytime you see a civil war movie it's got some reb beating Keuta Kente into a bloody pulp, yeah that's how it was, not.
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#17
10-14-2009, 08:41 PM
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#18
10-14-2009, 08:45 PM
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I remember reading somewhere that a lot of slaves fought and died for the south.
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When will the world learn that a million men are of no importance compared with one man? [Henry David Thoreau]
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#19
10-14-2009, 08:45 PM
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#20
10-14-2009, 10:41 PM
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Yeah, I get the Union propaganda BS. "To the victor goes the spoils", including the right to BS your way into a pair of angel's wings in the history books. Doesn't change the basic fact that the South needed to lose the war for moral reasons, regardless of whether Abe Lincoln was a saint or not. The major premise of the OP were the major screw-ups committed by both North and South. The prosecution of the war itself is only third on the list of sins committed on our Republic by the secession of the CSA. Failing to prevent the need for war, the first set of clusterfloks are grouped as follow: founding fathers screw-up, one screw-up each by North and South. The second group happensafter the war, including Southern sympathizers screwing up one last time by assassinating Lincoln. Abe was no angel, but killing him kicked the brakes out of the freight train that became the post-war re-destruction. The last, and most lasting screw up IMO, was committed by the North buggering the South out of sheer spite and corruption after the war. Far more damage by Clusterflok #6 which lasts to this day, than any demented act of violence committed by any psycho blue coat general during the war. Think about it: Present-day Germans pretty much shrug their shoulders and admit their ancestors needed a serious ass-kicking in WWII. After the clear moral reasoning behind this admission, what is their second reason for accepting former enemies as good friends? Because the Marshall Plan worked! Lack of spite, after the war.
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