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Old 05-16-2007, 11:46 PM
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Clash of hope and fear as Venezuela seizes land

When will the "liquidation" of the kulaks begin?
Quote:
URACHICHE, Venezuela — The squatters arrive before dawn with machetes and rifles, surround the well-ordered rows of sugar cane and threaten to kill anyone who interferes. Then they light a match to the crops and declare the land their own.

For centuries, much of Venezuela’s rich farmland has been in the hands of a small elite. After coming to power in 1998, and especially after his re-election in December, President Hugo Chávez vowed to end that inequality, and has been keeping his promise in a process that is both brutal and legal.

Mr. Chávez is carrying out what may become the largest forced land redistribution in Venezuela’s history, building utopian farming villages for squatters, lavishing money on new cooperatives and sending army commando units to supervise seized estates in six states.

The violence has gone both ways in the struggle, with more than 160 peasants killed by hired gunmen in Venezuela, including several here in northwestern Yaracuy State, an epicenter of the land reform project, in recent years. Eight landowners have also been killed here.

“The oligarchy is always on the attack and trying to say you are no good,” Mr. Chávez said to squatters in a televised visit here. “They think they’re the owners of the world.”

Mr. Chávez’s supporters have formed thousands of state-financed cooperatives to wrest farms and cattle ranches from private owners. Landowners say compensation is hard to obtain. Local officials describe the land seizures as paving stones on “the road to socialism.”

“This is agrarian terrorism encouraged by the state,” said Fhandor Quiroga, a landowner and head of Yaracuy’s chamber of commerce, pointing to dozens of kidnappings of landowners by armed gangs in the last two years.

[...]

With financing from state banks, the cooperative plants crops like manioc, corn and beans, which officials in Caracas say are better suited to soils here than sugar cane. By burning the cane during land seizures, the squatters prepare the land for other crops and give owners less incentive to fight for control. The state and federal government holds Bella Vista as an example of the ideological fervor Mr. Chávez is trying to instill in the countryside.

Lisbeth Colmenares, 22, was radiant as she showed a visitor her new home here, where she and her family live rent-free.

“Before Chávez, the government would have been happy to let us starve,” said Ms. Colmenares, holding her 6-month-old daughter, Luzelis. “We’ll never let what we have now be taken from us.”

But while some of the newly settled communities are euphoric, landowners are jittery. Economists say the land reform may have the opposite effect of what Mr. Chavez intends, and make the country more dependent on imported food.

The uncertainties and disruptions of the land seizures have led to lower investment by some farmers. Production of some foods has been relatively flat, adding to shortages of items like sugar, economists say.

John R. Hines Freyre, who owns Yaracuy’s largest sugar-cane farm, is now trying desperately to sell the property and others in neighboring states. “No one wants this property, of course, because they know we’re about to be invaded,” said Mr. Hines, 69, in English polished decades ago at Georgetown University.

Yaracuy’s sugar growers’ association says sugar cane production here has fallen 40 percent since Mr. Chávez set the land reform in motion.

Senior officials blame “hoarders” for the shortages. But agricultural economists say the government bureaucracy, which runs a chain of food stores, is also rife with inefficiencies and Venezuela is at a disadvantage in competing on international markets with larger economies, like China.

[...]

Top-down land redistribution projects have a troubled history in Latin America, including Venezuela itself, which last tried it in the 1960s. Even neighboring countries like Brazil, with a flourishing agribusiness industry, struggle with militant demands for land from the rural poor.

But Venezuela, unlike many of its neighbors, has long imported most of its food, and uses less than 30 percent of its arable land to its full potential, according to the United Nations.

A good part of the reason is the havoc that its oil wealth plays on the economy, with a strong currency during times of high oil prices making it cheaper to import food than to produce it at home. Meanwhile, vast cattle ranches take up large areas of arable land.

But no country in the region has currently hit the land distribution issue as aggressively as Mr. Chávez.

“By 2008, I predict, no big landowners will be left in the state of Yaracuy,” said Franklin Ochoa, 23, a member of the cooperative committee that manages Bella Vista.

In fact, Yaracuy, one of Venezuela’s smallest states, is not filled with especially large holdings. With some of the country’s most fertile soil, the state has been home to immigrants from Cuba, Portugal and Spain who arrived after World War II and assembled relatively small sugar cane farms and cattle ranches.

Some of these immigrants or their children are now doing everything they can to leave. Fátima Vieira, the daughter of a Portuguese truck driver who moved to Venezuela 50 years ago, said she was struggling to receive compensation for a 170-acre sugar cane farm controlled by squatters. She said squatters had burned much of her sugar cane in an attempt to intimidate her.

Ms. Vieira, 43, said she also feared for her life after a gunman shot her brother, Antonio, in the neck one balmy night in August in 2003, on the edge of his sugar cane farm. He died in the cab of his Ford pickup truck. After that incident squatters took over his property, she said.

“His killer remains free,” Ms. Vieira said in an interview at her home in San Felipe, the state capital.

So far only a small group of landowners in Yaracuy, most of whom were Spanish immigrants and maintained citizenship in their homeland, has received compensation for seized land, after Spain’s government pressed Mr. Chávez’s administration.

More than 30 ranches and farms have been seized since Carlos Giménez, a staunch ally of Mr. Chávez, was elected governor in 2004.

Activists here say landowners have struck back. Braulio Álvarez, a land activist and pro-Chávez deputy in the National Assembly, was shot in the face last July after leaving a late-night meeting in San Felipe. Mr. Álvarez, who survived the attack, blamed landowners.

In an interview at the governor’s palace, where the halls are decorated with images of Che Guevara and Mr. Chávez, Governor Giménez said some friction should be expected on “the road to socialism.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/17/wo...hp&oref=slogin

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Old 05-16-2007, 11:54 PM
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"Lisbeth Colmenares, 22, was radiant as she showed a visitor her new home here, where she and her family live rent-free.

"Before Chávez, the government would have been happy to let us starve,” said Ms. Colmenares, holding her 6-month-old daughter, Luzelis. 'We’ll never let what we have now be taken from us.'"


Is it just me, or is this dripping with irony?
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Old 05-16-2007, 11:55 PM
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my heart goes out to the people who have lived in luxury off other people's underpaid labor all their lives

ok, not really. boo hoo.
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Old 05-17-2007, 12:39 PM
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I hate the rich too, but that's just wrong.
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Old 05-17-2007, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinhorn
"Lisbeth Colmenares, 22, was radiant as she showed a visitor her new home here, where she and her family live rent-free.

"Before Chávez, the government would have been happy to let us starve,” said Ms. Colmenares, holding her 6-month-old daughter, Luzelis. 'We’ll never let what we have now be taken from us.'"


Is it just me, or is this dripping with irony?
that's beautiful. and people still don't understand why socialism doesn't work?
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Old 05-17-2007, 01:04 PM
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This sounds exactly like Zimbabwe.
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Old 05-17-2007, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feenix566
This sounds exactly like Zimbabwe.
well, look what a wonderful paradise it has become...
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Old 05-17-2007, 01:07 PM
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That's why Spab is moving there. No worries about being controlled by those evil rich people.
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Old 05-17-2007, 01:12 PM
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Rich people suck for the most part so they can all rot for the most part.
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Old 05-17-2007, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 86Dude
Rich people suck for the most part so they can all rot for the most part.
If I win the lotto I'll try and remember what you said. Oh wait I'll be too busy relaxing in my house in the hills.
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Old 05-17-2007, 01:25 PM
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by yuki
If I win the lotto I'll try and remember what you said. Oh wait I'll be too busy relaxing in my house in the hills.
But that really isn't what I'm getting at. The lotto winner knows what it's like to be unwealthy. The Rich are mostly old money. Most have never known what it's like to scrape by. Bored with money the seek power in the form of political office. Once established they are even further removed from the common man, but wield incredible power that eventually results in at least 2 of the following:

A. The rich get richer at the expense of the common man. GOP

B. The poor get less poor but remain will remain worthless nonetheless at the expense of the common. DEMs

C. The working middle class man gets SCREWED by either party in either of the former situations.
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Old 05-17-2007, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feenix566
That's why Spab is moving there. No worries about being controlled by those evil rich people.
I might.

I was actually thinking Costa Rica.
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Originally Posted by Red: you know why. © ® ™

and hey take no prisoners, **** them, if you have something to say then say it **** polite.... then all these ****ers get to thinking they are right instead of someone saying what the **** are you talking about.... (d. donnelly)
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Old 05-17-2007, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 86Dude
The Rich are mostly old money.
Then I'm sure Venezuela's economy will keep on performing beautifully. I mean, all those squatters who burned down the sugar fields will become wealthy by taking the land, so they'll all be rich forever, right?
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Old 05-17-2007, 02:55 PM
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The people with the knowledge of how to use the land are having it stolen from them and put into the hands of people who think that land magically produces wealth. The looters will fail to produce the wealth they need to sustain themselves and then will blame someone else and loot something else, until there is nothing left to loot and no one left with ability because they have all been run off or killed. Venezuela will be a dangerous place in under a decade, poorer than it has ever been, divided over who to blame.
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Old 05-17-2007, 02:57 PM
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you mean the people who worked in those fields all their lives and lived in shanties without electricity while the owner of the land lived in luxury off their labor?

I think assuming they continue to work the land and then divide the money up between themselves, like a commune, or spread the wealth of the proceeds of that sugar cane to all who labor to plant and harvest it with decent wages, ya, they could all live pretty damn well.
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Originally Posted by Red: you know why. © ® ™

and hey take no prisoners, **** them, if you have something to say then say it **** polite.... then all these ****ers get to thinking they are right instead of someone saying what the **** are you talking about.... (d. donnelly)
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Old 05-17-2007, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grimrebuke
The people with the knowledge of how to use the land are having it stolen from them and put into the hands of people who think that land magically produces wealth. The looters will fail to produce the wealth they need to sustain themselves and then will blame someone else and loot something else, until there is nothing left to loot and no one left with ability because they have all been run off or killed. Venezuela will be a dangerous place in under a decade, poorer than it has ever been, divided over who to blame.
by knowledge of how to use that land, do you mean paying starving people a pittance to do all the work while the "smart ones" sit around doing the important "owning" of the land?
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Originally Posted by Red: you know why. © ® ™

and hey take no prisoners, **** them, if you have something to say then say it **** polite.... then all these ****ers get to thinking they are right instead of someone saying what the **** are you talking about.... (d. donnelly)
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Old 05-17-2007, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpabSFW
you mean the people who worked in those fields all their lives and lived in shanties without electricity while the owner of the land lived in luxury off their labor?

I think assuming they continue to work the land and then divide the money up between themselves, like a commune, or spread the wealth of the proceeds of that sugar cane to all who labor to plant and harvest it with decent wages, ya, they could all live pretty damn well.
Just like Zimbabwe.

History will show whether or not your theories about laborers are correct.

Unfortunately, history already has shown them to be incorrect time and time again. Likewise, the next generation of Marxists won't learn from Venezuela's example today, and they'll just keep on looting.
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Old 05-17-2007, 03:06 PM
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it will be an interesting watch.

there is something else at play here.

take domestic abuse. even when the abused partner removes themselves from the situation after years, many times they will continue with a mindset that makes them perceive themselves as victims and by doing so, continue to make choices that ultimately make them victims again. even being aware of that and actively working on it, it will still take as long as it takes for that person to be in a place to make better choices. it is a result of the pyschological damage of the abuse, a carry over.

in wartime, something similar. PTSD, which is way of carrying a bad situation around with you until you can get to a point that you have dealt with the issues.

I think this situation may be similar, just on a larger scale.
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Originally Posted by Red: you know why. © ® ™

and hey take no prisoners, **** them, if you have something to say then say it **** polite.... then all these ****ers get to thinking they are right instead of someone saying what the **** are you talking about.... (d. donnelly)
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Old 05-17-2007, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpabSFW
you mean the people who worked in those fields all their lives and lived in shanties without electricity while the owner of the land lived in luxury off their labor?

I think assuming they continue to work the land and then divide the money up between themselves, like a commune, or spread the wealth of the proceeds of that sugar cane to all who labor to plant and harvest it with decent wages, ya, they could all live pretty damn well.
They know how to work it, but do they know what will grow on it, what rotations to use, when to harvest it? And then, when one commune does know all of that and turns out a good harvest year after year, while the neighboring commune's fields fail to turn out enough sustainance for its people, will the failing farm's people blame the rich commune and then invade? That is the obvious next step, when the communes are all formed, the poorer communes will take from the richer ones. Labor does not produce wealth on its own, it requires entrepreneurialism. A system of masters and slaves is undesireable, but a system of all theives is worse. Failing farms will attack successful ones, and then work the same magic on those that they did on their own, then look for fresh ones to loot. They will blame the old owners for having damaged the land, or the weather for being too wet or dry, or will accuse their neighbors of having cheated and taken the "good" land. And so they will blame, claim their rights, and steal what they can. And eventually there will be nothing more to steal. Then they will either beg the world for help or will try to take from other nations around them.
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Old 05-17-2007, 03:20 PM
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if all the land there is communal, they all benefit. I think that will be the final thing.

ya, there may not be a top 10% who have accumulated untold wealth while all those who actually do the labor live in the deepest poverty, but ahem, isn't that the point of the whole bolivarian revolution?
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Originally Posted by Red: you know why. © ® ™

and hey take no prisoners, **** them, if you have something to say then say it **** polite.... then all these ****ers get to thinking they are right instead of someone saying what the **** are you talking about.... (d. donnelly)
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