Left-Wing Anti-Semitism

[Truth Teller]

Recently writer Ellen Willis died at the age of 64.

She was a major influence in my thinking,like me she came into her leftism from a blue-collar background,unlike many lefties who are "trust fund trendies".

She was a radial feminist and a democratic socialist and like me she was a anti-anti-Zionist and could see that some of the anti-Zionist rhetoric of the left was dangerously close to anti-Semitism.

Her best writing on left-wing anti-Semitism is the essay is There Still A Jewish Question link:http://www.journalism.nyu.edu/facult...20Question.pdf

[orangikan]

Too bad she can't dissect the Palestinian point of view with the same "objectivity." I agree with much of what she says about Israel, but one cannot be an objective observer if one has no equally salient observations about the Arab Palestinians.

One also has to question her objectivity when she makes errors of fact.

1. The main thrust of Jewish immigration was from Eastern European Jews - mostly communists - the holocaust survivors did not come until just before the 1947-8 war by which time the intent to wrest a much larger area of land than ceded to it by the UN had been hatched by Ben Gurion and his cohorts. There was never any intent to "make do" with the UN plan.

2. The current occupation of land did not come from a "defensive war" it came from a so called "pre-emptive strike" by Israel that coincided with military rumblings from Egypt and Syria that had no serious intent. The precipitating factor was an Egyptianw iwithdrawal of access to the gulf. It came at a time that Israel had decided it needed more land for it's growing population, and it was indeed an aggressive settlement campaign, as evidenced by Israel's immediate destruction of Arab homes in Jerusalem to secure areas "permanently" for greater Israel, and it's steady growth of settlers that are doing more than appeasing fundamentalist Jewish needs.

I will grant that she is willing to criticize Israeli policy, which is a rarity among anti- anti -zionists.

But once again, Truth Teller, we have to hear that refrain that accompanies any criticism of Israel and Zionism as smacking of anti semitism. I remember you being quick to call criticism of a Gay Senators exploitation of a young page as smacking of homophobia. Can't we get past salient criticism without throwing in the charge of bigotry?

[The face of Jacob]

Here's a great article in this issue:

The global social movement of extreme Islamists continues to work towards one of its main goals, the de-legitimatization of Israel so to bring about its destruction, while also aiming to usurp the global order and replace regimes throughout Islamic societies.

While this theocratic social movement carries on with its clearly articulated genocidal objectives, Western human rights advocates and progressives, especially in Western Europe, remain largely silent. How is it that social democratic intellectuals and progressives are voiceless in the face of theocratic, homophobic, sexist, anti-democratic racists, who make unequivocal public genocidal statements, backed up with actions consistent with this goal on the ground?

Among much of the West’s chattering classes Israel has been criticized in a disproportionate manner for decades. The rhetorical and ideological blinders have made it difficult for some on the Left, mainly in Europe, to assess the current situation in a coherent manner. This while levels of anti-Semitism increase significantly throughout much of Europe. British Jews, for example, are four times more likely to be attacked then Muslims, even though Islamophobia is also on the rise.

Much of the expression of the extreme Left in the UK and in Western Europe focuses on portraying Israel as some sort of omnipresent power that mysteriously holds sway over western governments, namely – though not limited to - Washington. This demonization utilizes classical anti-Semitic tropes, accusing Jewish citizens of dual loyalty. This form of dehumanizing stereotype played a key role in the devastating violence and dislocation of European Jewry historically. Full article inside

[Truth Teller]

Originally Posted by orangikan

Too bad she can't dissect the Palestinian point of view with the same "objectivity."

That was not the subject of the essay.

Will you at the very least agree that Palestinians who commit suicide bombings are war criminals?

I agree with much of what she says about Israel, but one cannot be an objective observer

I don't recall the word "objective" being used[just like you don't use that word in refernce to your viewpoint].

if one has no equally salient observations about the Arab Palestinians.

The essay was about why she was a anti-anti-Zionist,the Palestinan situation has nothing to do with that.

One also has to question her objectivity when she makes errors of fact.

1. The main thrust of Jewish immigration was from Eastern European Jews - mostly communists - the holocaust survivors did not come until just before the 1947-8 war by which time the intent to wrest a much larger area of land than ceded to it by the UN had been hatched by Ben Gurion and his cohorts. There was never any intent to "make do" with the UN plan.

Minor points that are open to interpertation [and not the main point of the topic].

2. The current occupation of land did not come from a "defensive war" it came from a so called "pre-emptive strike" by Israel that coincided with military rumblings from Egypt and Syria that had no serious intent.

Well,that's your interpertation,many disagree.

The precipitating factor was an Egyptianw iwithdrawal of access to the gulf. It came at a time that Israel had decided it needed more land for it's growing population, and it was indeed an aggressive settlement campaign, as evidenced by Israel's immediate destruction of Arab homes in Jerusalem to secure areas "permanently" for greater Israel, and it's steady growth of settlers that are doing more than appeasing fundamentalist Jewish needs.

Again,your intepertation.

I will grant that she is willing to criticize Israeli policy, which is a rarity among anti- anti -zionists.

And I've been critical of Sharon and Likuid too[ask GF].

So have most people I've known who share my view on this.

But once again, Truth Teller, we have to hear that refrain that accompanies any criticism of Israel and Zionism as smacking of anti semitism.

No one said those exact words,but if you turn refuse to condemn suicide bombings as war crimes,if you refuse to ackowlege that Zionism has been forced on by Jews by history,if you even refuse to admit there is such a thing as anti-Semitism and ther needs to be a refuge from it,than what other conclusion can one come to?

I remember you being quick to call criticism of a Gay Senators exploitation of a young page as smacking of homophobia.

I did when the crticism in question was based on homophobia,not when it wasn't.

Can't we get past salient criticism without throwing in the charge of bigotry?

Not when the crticism is based on biogtry.

[Truth Teller]

Here is a viewpoint form a Marxist publication that is critical of Isreal and is not anti-Semitic ,but it also has the honesty to admit there is such a thing as left-wing anti-Semitism and that left-wing anti-Semitism comes from people who say that Isreal should not exist ,who say that Isreal is the problem in the Middle East and compaires Isrealis to Nazis and any Isreali leader to Hitler.

These Marxists are indeed right link : http://www.workersliberty.org/node/5041

[Truth Teller]

More on Left-Wing anti-Semitism : www.jewschool.com?p=10741.

[AtariTeenageSuicide]

some points:

ellen willis believed in the merits of psychoanalysis, which puts her credibility on par with witch-doctors and medival alchemists. she was also jewish, so being anti-anti-Zionist (how about just calling her a 'zionist', instead of resorting to such unwieldy euphemisms?) is hardly an act of moral courage.

workers' liberty is a ridiculous publication--one of the most odious of the pro-war leftist rags (at least in the UK), and has been tacit supporter of the neo-cons' plan to 'liberate' iraq and re-make the middle east since the early 90s. it's hardly surprising that two of their biggest concerns are:

anti-semitism among leftists
the treatment of GBLT people in iraq

surely, two of the most pressing issues we face today!

[Truth Teller]

Originally Posted by AtariTeenageSuicide

some points:

ellen willis believed in the merits of psychoanalysis, which puts her credibility on par with witch-doctors and medival alchemists. she was also jewish, so being anti-anti-Zionist (how about just calling her a 'zionist', instead of resorting to such unwieldy euphemisms?) is hardly an act of moral courage.

workers' liberty is a ridiculous publication--one of the most odious of the pro-war leftist rags (at least in the UK), and has been tacit supporter of the neo-cons' plan to 'liberate' iraq and re-make the middle east since the early 90s. it's hardly surprising that two of their biggest concerns are:

anti-semitism among leftists
the treatment of GBLT people in iraq

surely, two of the most pressing issues we face today!

After seeing examples of left-wing anti-Semitism we now see an example ^of right-wing anti-Semitism.

Anyway,left-wing anti-Semitism is the topic,so please stay on topic.

[AtariTeenageSuicide]

nevermind, isnt worth it.

[PlatyGuy]

Let's say, for the sake of the argument, that anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism are two separate things - distinct because one refers to a religion while the other refers to a nation and because one refers to ethnic identity while the other refers to behavior. How would you who call yourself anti-anti-Zionists be able to tell the difference from way over where you sit? How can you expect that your own views might be distinguished from Jewish supremacists who look down on all other races or religions? Most importantly, where the hell do you get off flinging such vile labels and accusations at other people while rejecting any that come back? The double standard you use is itself proof that you consider yourself or your tribe to be innately above others - the very same attitude that led to the Holocaust in the first place. The cast might have changed, but the script remains the same.

[The face of Jacob]

Originally Posted by PlatyGuy

Let's say, for the sake of the argument, that anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism are two separate things - distinct because one refers to a religion while the other refers to a nation and because one refers to ethnic identity while the other refers to behavior. How would you who call yourself anti-anti-Zionists be able to tell the difference from way over where you sit? How can you expect that your own views might be distinguished from Jewish supremacists who look down on all other races or religions? Most importantly, where the hell do you get off flinging such vile labels and accusations at other people while rejecting any that come back? The double standard you use is itself proof that you consider yourself or your tribe to be innately above others - the very same attitude that led to the Holocaust in the first place. The cast might have changed, but the script remains the same.

This is the most stupid post I've ever seen!

You claim that the Jews are supermacists? Supermacists are Nazis who want to rull all over the world and on the way are eliminating other races. So you are saying that the Jews are Nazis? So you are saying that the Jews behave like Nazi Germany?

1. When is the last time that the Jews did a holocaust to another nation?
2. When is the last time that the Jews sail at sea to conquer other lands like your ancestors did?
3. When is the last time that the Jews did an inquisition to other nations?

Ha?

You compare the behaviour of the Jews to your Roman barbaric behaviour?

And why are you saying all these lies?

Because you are used that Jews should live in ghettos and in concentration camps? You think that the Jews shouldn't live in their homeland? 100 nations in the world have the right to live in their countries except the Jews? Is that what you are saying?

When America is in danger she has the right to burn 500,000 Japanese and to destroy Afganistan, not to mention the elimination of the Indians and the Incas, it's ok ha?

For UK it's ok to conquer half of this world and to enslave the unhabitants of it, it's ok ha?

And those examples above aren't supermacists in your hypocrite eyes?

[PlatyGuy]

Originally Posted by The face of Jacob

You claim that the Jews are supermacists?

Clearly English is not a language in which you are fluent, so I'll clarify. I do not believe that Jews in general are any one way. What I believe is that some Israeli Jews thinkthey are innately superior to others and not subject to others' morality - just as some American Christians believe likewise, though of course both claims cannot simultaneously be true.

Supermacists are Nazis who want to rull all over the world and on the way are eliminating other races.

Supremacy does not imply eliminating other races. It merely implies believing that one is supreme, i.e. in a position above others.

You compare the behaviour of the Jews to your Roman barbaric behaviour?

Ah yes, the noble Jews cannot be compared to those barbaric Romans, eh? That's one of the clearest examples of racism I've seen on this forum.

[Farnsworth,Luther P.]

She was a radial feminist and a democratic socialist and like me she was a anti-anti-Zionist and could see that some of the anti-Zionist rhetoric of the left was dangerously close to anti-Semitism.

It wasn't 'dangerously close', it was outright antisemitism, and it's been plain to see for many years. I posted an essay on this general topic some months ago; it was about the German and European 'New Left', but it also fits the American 'New Left' to a T ...

Common Ground between Right and Left

Today's German anti-Semitism is deeply connected to the Nazi period and the wish to expunge guilt and responsibility for dealing with it. Right-wing extremism, neo-Nazism, and extreme conservatism seem "naturally" linked to denial or minimalization of the Holocaust, or calling for a new one. As elsewhere in Europe, a relatively new "brotherhood" has emerged in Germany between the extreme Right and fundamentalist Islam.

Anti-Zionism, however - which is not mere criticism of Israeli policies, but the denial of the Jewish people's right to live in their own state - also links leftists and rightists. Since the Six Day War of 1967, both the extreme and the mainstream Left in Europe have shown strong anti-Zionist tendencies, not always distinguishable from anti-Semitism. Although leftist anti-Zionism seemed to decline after the fall of Communism in 1990, it was reanimated by the Second Intifada and the antiglobalization movement, which is today a main source of leftist anti-Semitism.

In a May 2002 survey in the weekly magazine Der Spiegel, 25% agreed that "what the state of Israel does to the Palestinians is no different than what the Nazis did during the Third Reich to the Jews."2 A new scholarly book analyzes how deeply anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism are rooted in German society.3 Since 1989, united Germany seems to stand on two main pillars: a strong anti-American and anti-Israeli attitude.

The Postwar, Pre-1967 Roots

Anti-Semitism was never exclusive to the Right; Communism, for its part, often vilified Jews as capitalists. Communism in East Germany, as elsewhere, denied the right to practice the Jewish religion and sought to eradicate religion in general, including Judaism. East Germany's anti-Semitic policies first became evident in January 1953 when the Stasi - the state security service - confiscated documents of the Jewish communities, searched the homes of Jewish leaders, and spoke of a "Zionist conspiracy." After the Six Day War, East Germany officially adopted an anti-Zionist stance. However, no serious data on East German anti-Semitism is available before the reunification in 1989.

Although West German left-wing anti-Semitism also increased steadily after the Six Day War, before then the West German Left supported Israel generally, and specifically the Wiedergutmachung (Reparations Agreement of 1953) and the establishment of diplomatic relations in 1965. This friendliness was, however, based on an idealization of Israel, kibbutzim, and pioneering and was not on genuinely firm ground.4 Opposition to the conservative government of Chancellor Konrad Adenauer also played a role in this left-wing philo-Semitism.

During the 1960s, the West German Left divided into a more "conservative" wing and a New Left trend. Whereas Chancellor Willy Brandt was said to be a true and unwavering friend of Israel,5 many young leftists took radical positions and opposed Brandt's "establishment" Social Democratic Party. In 1966 they founded the Nonparliamentary Opposition (APO), a popular movement that sought to "renew" German politics from the outside. Many of its members and supporters later showed sympathy for the RAF, a leftist terrorist movement that had ties to the PLO and whose cadres trained in terrorist camps in Lebanon.

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-32.htm

Nice to see the occasional post that shows somebody at least reads something decent every once in a while. I'm glad somebody out there realizes what frauds most of what gets labeled as 'leftist' is merely upper class drivel a la Marie Antoinette style, not to mention Marxists have always been a minority on the left, not The Left by a long shot.

This is the most stupid post I've ever seen!

Nah, his stupidest post was his Big Scare And Alarum post about 'Joos on da innernet!!!!' thread, wherein he takes a year old story about some Jews writing up a little newsfeed alert program and makes out like it was a sinister major Mossad black ops disinformation operation. In fact, he tried out some innuendo about you in that thread, also; he's firmly in the Crackpot category, hence his caviling about pretending 'there's a difference' between his raving lunacy and anti-semitism; after all, everybody knows Jews aren't supposed to respond to the kind of insipid, cretinous, and oh-so-trendy terrorist fan-boy drivel that gets posted all over the internet daily, especially here on this board. Going through his posting history, he never seemed to have a problem with any other group whatsoever, no big 'Alarums about CAIR, .A.N.S.W.E.R., those psychotic psychiatric patients at MikeMalloy, etc., so you can take it to the bank he's a loon and is all for genocide against Israelis.

nevermind, isnt worth it.

You're supposed to be some dead fat guy. Why are you posting?

[The face of Jacob]

Welcome back, Farnsworth,Luther P. We were missing you a lot.

[Farnsworth,Luther P.]

Not when the criticism is based on biogtry.

Since over 90% of the 'criticism' is canned propoganda and bald-faced lying, and the faux 'palestinian' problem is nothing but an international extortion racket, these cretins have nothing to offer in response of any merit. Not to mention that these atavistic animals had their democratic election, and the vast majority came down firmly on the side of murder, terrorism, and virulently racist genocide, they have nowhere to hide their lame gibberish about 'peace' any more. This has been blatantly obvious to anybody who has really looked at both sides, and most of the so-called 'critics' of Israel clearly haven't bothered.

[Farnsworth,Luther P.]

Originally Posted by The face of Jacob

Welcome back, Farnsworth,Luther P. We were missing you a lot.

Really? That's surprising ...LOL ...

Been busy making a living and all that boring stuff, and a working vacation or two down in Central America. Glad to see you've managed to annoy many of these trolls and getting threads locked. Good Work!

[PlatyGuy]

Originally Posted by Farnsworth,Luther P.

he takes a year old story about some Jews writing up a little newsfeed alert program

Yeah, that would be the one that you denied even existed, until it was pointed out that I had already posted a link to it and you were WRONG WRONG WRONG (assuming out of sheer charity that you weren't just lying instead). I'm surprised you'd want to mention that humiliating incident, even in the context of your habitual baiting and personal attacks.

In fact, he tried out some innuendo about you in that thread, also

More accurately, I gave him an opportunity to demonstrate for everyone how racist he is, and he took full advantage of that opportunity.

Take your trolling elsewhere. If you think getting threads locked is a good thing, you're obviously not here to debate anything and you have no place in civilized society.

[Farnsworth,Luther P.]

Warning issued: personal attacks

Originally Posted by PlatyGuy

Yeah, that would be the one that you denied even existed, until it was pointed out that I had already posted a link to it and you were WRONG WRONG WRONG (assuming out of sheer charity that you weren't just lying instead).

Go back and read it all again, Gomer. You claimed it was some big sinister Israeli government intelligence op of some kind, which of course you've yet to provide any link to; you linked to a dinky little 1.5 Meg newsfeed deal, but I understand your deep embarrassment. In fact you still post like a regular caller on the Coast To Coast radio show ... you're just duller than most.

'm surprised you'd want to mention that humiliating incident, even in the context of your habitual baiting and personal attacks.

I don't mind merntion your embarrassing little message board do-dos at all, but thanks for your concern ...

More accurately, I gave him an opportunity to demonstrate for everyone how racist he is, and he took full advantage of that opportunity.

More accurately, you just made some snotty little crap jibes, since you want to bring up 'habitual baiting' and poorly disguised 'personal attacks', not to mention trying to insinuate he turned up here as a result of the above mentioned 'sinister Mossad spyware' black ops you felt compelled to warn us all about ...

Take your trolling elsewhere. If you think getting threads locked is a good thing, you're obviously not here to debate anything and you have no place in civilized society.

I've never trolled here; just because you got caught hysterically jerking yourself off on the internet wearing a tinfoil condom doesn't mean everybody else who mocks your crazy nonsense is trolling, just so you know.

[orangikan]

Originally Posted by Truth Teller

That was not the subject of the essay.

Will you at the very least agree that Palestinians who commit suicide bombings are war criminals?

Sure if you will agree that killing kids who throw stones is a war crime; demolishing buildings with people inside is a war crime; settling in occupied territory is a war crime; assassinating people in other countries is a war crime....

I don't recall the word "objective" being used[just like you don't use that word in refernce to your viewpoint].

O.K. then we've agreed she is not making an objective commentary.

The essay was about why she was a anti-anti-Zionist,the Palestinan situation has nothing to do with that.

If you take that position then I guess Zionism occurred in a vacuum! The very definition of zionism is: to take over land lived on by Palestinian Arabs!

ackowlege that Zionism has been forced on by Jews by history

Just like the Pilgrims were forced to go to America and take it as theirs? There was no being "forced on" ( O.K. if you won't let us live in peace here, we'll take over somebody elses place), just options chosen and enforced by superior powers.

if you even refuse to admit there is such a thing as anti-Semitism and ther needs to be a refuge from it,

Oh Puleez! Back to the old "If you won't agree with me about Israel then your an anti semite" drivel. The USA has more Jews than Israel, they don't seem to need a refuge!

I did when the crticism in question was based on homophobia,not when it wasn't.

No, you pointed the homophobe finger when I disagreed with you!

Not when the crticism is based on biogtry.

So what you are saying is that criticizing Israel is bigotry, and criticizing a gay senator of abusing his position and taking advantage of a minor is bigotry!

[jojo]

Originally Posted by Farnsworth,Luther P.

I've never trolled here; just because you got caught hysterically jerking yourself off on the internet wearing a tinfoil condom doesn't mean everybody else who mocks your crazy nonsense is trolling, just so you know.

You're trolling right now you dumbass.

You're the reason this ****ing forum has gone downhill

Get the **** out of here and stay out.