What Do We Owe The Next Generation?

[Unrepresented]

If anything?

Peace? A clean environment? Technology? Science? Infrastructure? Literature? Medicine? Endangered species?

Why do we owe them this? What duty of it is ours to give it to them?

List anything you think that we owe the next generation, and why they deserve it.

Justin

[seekerofvisions]

Originally posted by Unrepresented
If anything?

Peace? A clean environment? Technology? Science? Infrastructure? Literature? Medicine? Endangered species?

Why do we owe them this? What duty of it is ours to give it to them?

List anything you think that we owe the next generation, and why they deserve it.

Justin

All of that and more, our parents generation sure didnt leave it for us!

Im not sure that our generation is really capable of leaving all of those things or any of those things. We cant even agree on a definition for any of those things let alone find a solution for preserving any of them.

[NachtWolf]

Good Genes!

[Unrepresented]

Originally posted by NachtWolf
Good Genes!

Yeah, I wrote this thread knowing that response was on its way.

And to fulfill the second part of the question, what benefit to us does it have whether or not the next generation has good genes?

Justin

[NachtWolf]

It's purely psychological. Doesn't it benefit us to use up resources without worrying about consequences? Why not hunt game to extinction, or fish until there's nothing left in the sea? Why not chop down every tree in the rain forest and stop worrying about endangered species?

That's something few people know, but eugenists have historically been environmentalists for the same reason that they were eugenists - they are interested in preserving beauty and leaving a good world for their descendents to live in.

If you care nothing for those who follow you, that's simply your own feeling. I want to leave future generations an inheritence better than I received. As long as it doesn't require me to sacrifice my present happiness - and it doesn't - I want those who will inherit this Earth to have clean water, uncrowded cities, a high standard of living, and above all, happiness, health, and intelligence.

Who's with me?

--Mark

[seekerofvisions]

Okay, I dont know alot about genetics and such, but I just had a thought...arent we being a bit lazy by simply altering our genetics? Isnt that sort of avoiding the problem?

[Unrepresented]

Originally posted by NachtWolf
It's purely psychological. Doesn't it benefit us to use up resources without worrying about consequences? Why not hunt game to extinction, or fish until there's nothing left in the sea? Why not chop down every tree in the rain forest and stop worrying about endangered species?

So you're saying that eugenics and other gifts to future generations are both pointless and a loss to us? Since we're investing in something that offers us no return?

Justin

[NachtWolf]

Okay, I dont know alot about genetics and such, but I just had a thought...arent we being a bit lazy by simply altering our genetics? Isnt that sort of avoiding the problem?

Let me ask you a question. If you had a brain tumor, and it was giving you chronic headaches, what would you prefer? Some Tylenol for the headaches, or surgury to remove the tumor?

Genes are the problem - or half of it, anyway. Upbringing and prenatal environment are also sources of grief, but criminals don't just become criminals because they were raised wrong. Bums don't become bums and start sleeping under bridges just because the community isn't sensetive enough. Plenty of people suffer because they have bad genes, and that bothers me. We can (and I think that we should) work to alleviate the suffering of people who are still alive, and we're doing this right now, but every year more criminals discover crimes to commit and more bums discover bridges to sleep under. The kindest and most effective solutions to these problems aren't to merely treat their symptoms but to go right to the heart of the matter and remove the cause.

So you're saying that eugenics and other gifts to future generations are both pointless and a loss to us?

Actually, in theory, no. In point of fact eugenics is unlikely to be implimented in the West any time soon, so I'm fighting for the pure abstraction. However, if everyone were to magically wake up to the obvious merits of a simple, honest, unambitious eugenic goal, in 20 years we could easilly be living in a world with substantially less crime, fewer welfare mothers, fewer high school dropouts, and so forth. A mere 3 point IQ increase cuts most such social ills by over 15%, because so many of them are tied to low IQ.

For example, the average IQ of a neglectful mother, arguably one of the worst people in our society and a source of much misery, is around 75. People always talk about the importance of upbringing and the home environment, and they're right - imagine growing up with a neglectful mother! Eugenics could dramatically reduce the number of such people (since its effects are most strongly felt at the upper and lower extremes) and this is only one of many reasons why it would work so well in both the short and long term. Short term: Fewer neglectful moms. Long term: Fewer people f***ed up because their moms didn't know how to raise them.

And neglectful mothers are just one tiny piece of the pie, of course. The average IQ of people in jail is around 92, the average IQ of high school dropouts is around 85, and so forth. Eugenics means less crime, a healthier economy, fewer unwed mothers, etc. etc. ad nauseum. If we raised the IQ of babies being born today, we'd be reaping all kinds of benefits in a mere 20 years once they were grown. That's fast enough for most of us here to benefit two or three times over from eugenics - if we wise up and start now.

--Mark

[SimoneAsLily]

Originally posted by seekerofvisions


All of that and more, our parents generation sure didnt leave it for us!

Aside from being inaccurate, aren't you being a little hard on us older folks?

To coin a phrase 'We've come a long way, baby'.
Not perfect but better than the previous generation.

[Spießer]

Nothing.
Star Trek sucks...

[RightWingZealot]

a damn good spanking if you ask me.

[SimoneAsLily]

Originally posted by NachtWolf


The kindest and most effective solutions to these problems aren't to merely treat their symptoms but to go right to the heart of the matter and remove the cause.

HOW would you REMOVE the cause? Remove means take away - so what are you suggesting be removed?

However, if everyone were to magically wake up to the obvious merits of a simple, honest, unambitious eugenic goal,

What would be a workable PLAN for accomplishing this goal? Voluntary-don't make me laugh.

For example, the average IQ of a neglectful mother, arguably one of the worst people in our society and a source of much misery, is around 75.

Terribly judgemental- But that is what eugenics is about isn't it- Some one judging who is better.

Eugenics could dramatically reduce the number of such people (since its effects are most strongly felt at the upper and lower extremes)

HOW would this REDUCTION take place? Are you suggesting we orchestrate who mates with whom? Or are you suggesting sterilization as a method? Or are you intimating elimination?

And neglectful mothers are just one tiny piece of the pie, of course. The average IQ of people in jail is around 92, the average IQ of high school dropouts is around 85, and so forth. Eugenics means less crime, a healthier economy, fewer unwed mothers, etc. etc. ad nauseum. If we raised the IQ of babies being born today,
Ideally it would be great to raise the IQ. I have read a great deal of the links you have provided and have failed to find any eugenicist who describes a plan that could be endorsed by Joe Q Public


--Mark

Hi Mark,
Not really picking on YOU just the eugenic 'ideas'. I am grateful to you for having reexposed me to the topic but this Jane Q Public strongly believes that eugenicists should focus on tweaking and fixing, and a great deal more research.

Simone

(SPAB - be nice to me)

[NachtWolf]

HOW would you REMOVE the cause? Remove means take away - so what are you suggesting be removed?

"Remove" was an oversimplification on my part. As I've said on my homepage:

The main danger to eugenics which I anticipate is that it might someday, in the distant future, be used to utterly destroy genes which are currently considered undesirable but which may later prove invaluable to our very survival. The genes for diabetes or albinism or what have you which may seem to have no benefits right now may ultimately turn out to do something useful. So no, I don't support unbridaled eugenic efforts

Really all I think we should make a concerted effort to do is decrease the frequency of alleles which code for heart disease, cancer, cystic fibrosis, etc. and most importantly for low intelligence, since an intelligent society can use medicine to minimize problems from the other things.

What would be a workable PLAN for accomplishing this goal? Voluntary-don't make me laugh.

Voluntary eugenics is certainly workable as a solution to dysgenics. We're only losing ~2 IQ per generation, and if everybody made a small effort we might be able to stop that. I'll agree, however, that to actually get anything done there'd need to be government involvement, but part of that is getting eugenics into the public mindset with voluntary eugenics itself.

Beyond this, I think you and I agree that we should focus on research - find ways to make eugenics effective and painless. I also am very much in favor of free, widespread, socialized birth control as a means of helping the underclass to reduce its births because of the incredible rate of returns I envisage for that which go beyond eugenics. Lots of people are conceiving more children than they really want, and this means lots of abortions, financial problems (more mouths to feed), kids not getting the attention they need, and so forth. Socializing birth control to the point that birth control dispensers are as common as mail boxes might seem radical, but it shouldn't be very expensive compared to the rate of return.

Terribly judgemental- But that is what eugenics is about isn't it- Some one judging who is better.

Hopefull everyone can agree that neglectful mothers are, in one sense or another, "worse" than good mothers. I know a neglectful mother; she feels gulty. I still think she has to take responsibility for the damage she's caused, but I actually have a great deal of sympathy for her. If she'd had the tools she needed to begin with she wouldn't have to deal with all this stuff.

Well I'm out of time, but I hope what I've wrote answers your questions.

--Mark

[Allegra]

Among other things, I think we owe the next generation a clean environment. I live in Los Angeles, and I can see the air today. It's disgusting. It would be nice if we could clean this air up so next generation Angelinos grow up with fewer respiratory problems. Also, we need to conserve our natural resources, our national parks, and preserves. I want my children to grow up in a "green" environment -- not in urban sprawl.

I think we also need to protect their civil rights. We need to figure out how to live harmoniously with each other so that they can come into a happy, healthy world free from hate.

[ÆSiR]

Originally posted by Spießer
Nothing.
Star Trek sucks...

BUHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

Great comeback!

/Agree Sven

[DngrMse]

Originally posted by Unrepresented
If anything?

Peace? A clean environment? Technology? Science? Infrastructure? Literature? Medicine? Endangered species?

Why do we owe them this? What duty of it is ours to give it to them?

List anything you think that we owe the next generation, and why they deserve it.

Justin

We owe them the same rights, and opportunities we had.

[SimoneAsLily]

Originally posted by NachtWolf

"Remove" was an oversimplification on my part. As I've said on my homepage:

The main danger to eugenics which I anticipate is that it might someday, in the distant future, be used to utterly destroy genes which are currently considered undesirable but which may later prove invaluable to our very survival. The genes for diabetes or albinism or what have you which may seem to have no benefits right now may ultimately turn out to do something useful. So no, I don't support unbridaled eugenic efforts

Really all I think we should make a concerted effort to do is decrease the frequency of alleles which code for heart disease, cancer, cystic fibrosis, etc. and most importantly for low intelligence, since an intelligent society can use medicine to minimize problems from the other things.


Voluntary eugenics is certainly workable as a solution to dysgenics. We're only losing ~2 IQ per generation, and if everybody made a small effort we might be able to stop that. I'll agree, however, that to actually get anything done there'd need to be government involvement, but part of that is getting eugenics into the public mindset with voluntary eugenics itself.

Beyond this, I think you and I agree that we should focus on research - find ways to make eugenics effective and painless. I also am very much in favor of free, widespread, socialized birth control as a means of helping the underclass to reduce its births because of the incredible rate of returns I envisage for that which go beyond eugenics. Lots of people are conceiving more children than they really want, and this means lots of abortions, financial problems (more mouths to feed), kids not getting the attention they need, and so forth. Socializing birth control to the point that birth control dispensers are as common as mail boxes might seem radical, but it shouldn't be very expensive compared to the rate of return.


Hopefull everyone can agree that neglectful mothers are, in one sense or another, "worse" than good mothers. I know a neglectful mother; she feels gulty. I still think she has to take responsibility for the damage she's caused, but I actually have a great deal of sympathy for her. If she'd had the tools she needed to begin with she wouldn't have to deal with all this stuff.

Well I'm out of time, but I hope what I've wrote answers your questions.

--Mark

Well yes and no to the answer the questions remark.
For example your paragraph that includes the words 'decrease the frequency of alleles' . I don't think I want to know how that could be done. * but at the same time I do*. But don't do it.

I certainly am in favor of birth control and no abortion is not an acceptable method of birth control( just thought I'd get in a plug for one of MY things-hehe)

Thank you for temporizing your remarks about neglectful mothers. Humanness is one of your more endearing traits


the perfectly imperfect Simone

[NachtWolf]

I don't think I want to know how that could be done.

Socialized pregnancy prevention (free birth control), and
Gamete selection (designer babies).

You have to understand, Simone, we're getting dysgenics naturally. No one is forcing it; it's just occurring. Eugenics could happen equally naturally, without any arm twisting. Right now people make decisions about number of children and so forth based on a certain set of criteria. Change the circumstances and the criteria and you can change reproductive patterns; the details can get mucky but the concept is simple.

Humanness is one of your more endearing traits

Yeah, well, just don't tell anyone.

--Mark

[Unrepresented]

Originally posted by seekerofvisions
All of that and more, our parents generation sure didnt leave it for us!

Originally posted by DngrMse
We owe them the same rights, and opportunities we had.

I found these posts to be an interesting contrast. Seeker wants to give the next generation all the advantages we never had, Dngr wants to give them the same as we had, nothing more, nothing less.

Dngr, are the same rights and opportunities still available? After all many opportunites are time based. I never had the ability to be the first man on the moon. I never had a chance to topple the USSR, I never risked being killed in Vietnam. Do I still have the same rights and opportunities that the previous generation before me had?

And who's to say that our rights and opportunities won't limit them?

Justin

[302Riz]

They will probably have less rights than us. Our rights are slowly being stripped away from us.
By the time the next generation takes control, they probably wont have any rights that Americans have enjoyed in the past.

I would like to thank the baby boomer generation for starting the snowball effect.