Why don't conservatives force their representatives to give up their socialized benefits?

[Archaix]

That unlike liberal programs, hunger will motivate someone to actually get a job.

Ha, I rest my case. Dumb as a button.

[Freedom&Liberty]

Interpreting it in modern context honors it and its intent.

Wrong. It causes it to be misinterpreted.

[Freedom&Liberty]

Ha, I rest my case. Dumb as a button.

I guess that makes you as dumb as a box full of buttons. Whatever that means.

[9ball8]

...I totally agree by the way that access to affordable health care should be a priority to a civilized society, I just think the assumption that this goal can only be achieved by taking all liberty and power from individuals and handing it over to the government to decide how it is distributed is ridiculous.

Bottom line, you want it given to you. I want to earn it for myself. This is the difference in our philosophies.

There is no possible way you could provide the roadways you use, necessary education for those in your circle, testing of the water you drink, etc, etc. Each of these things are provided for the common benefit, and are paid for from a common fund. No one fails to benefit from these things, which is how I define "common" or "general" welfare noted in the constitution.

.... They do have to do their part to go find and gather them. When you apply the same standard to people you are called cruel and heartless.

This is a rational response, IMO. Unfortunately, non-liberals have failed to follow thru on this argument in legislation, choosing to state this as a principle which should end any further liberal attempts. If giving without expecting anything in return is the objection, why have non-liberals failed to require "quid pro quo" in all legislation? If one receives food stamps, one is required to provide 2 hours of street cleaning daily, as one example. But we receive only an objection based on principle, and nothing more. No quid pro quo, no business plan, no objectives or benchmarks. Hence, very difficult to end or reform bad programs based on subpar performance.
Liberals have also failed to apply lessons to those failures of the welfare state. Why must government be the sole provider of all essential services? If there are non-denominational, non-profit, non gov't. agencies that can better provide, they should be contracted. Because of their non-profit status, they are subject to audits, which could be more demanding whenever gov't. funds are involved.

[TRUE LIBERTY]

Have you considered that people wouldn't even need social programs, if they didn't exist? Do you realize the self perpetuating nature of handing out free stuff? God forbid that people figure out a way to help each other without help from liberals in government.

Hunger has always been the worlds best motivator.

I wish I could thanks this 100 times! It sure was my best motivator when I had nothing on the streets at age 17.

[Chachma v'Oz]

I wish I could thanks this 100 times! It sure was my best motivator when I had nothing on the streets at age 17.

Sorry to hear that. When I was 17 my mother remarried and moved away and I was also on my own, but I had been working seven days a week for five years by then and was doing fine - the only kid I knew of in high school with his own apartment. Some of us are motivated to do things before they become necessary, and that really pays off when the crunch comes.

[hadit]

Interpreting it in modern context honors it and its intent.

Not when that "interpretation" completely reverses it's intent. You might as well claim Mengele was interpreting the Hippocratic oath in modern context.

[hadit]

Sorry to hear that. When I was 17 my mother remarried and moved away and I was also on my own, but I had been working seven days a week for five years by then and was doing fine - the only kid I knew of in high school with his own apartment. Some of us are motivated to do things before they become necessary, and that really pays off when the crunch comes.

Applause deserved. I think we would all be better off if more of us were required to self-motivate like that. Unfortunately, the policies you champion give the 17 year olds of today no incentive to discover and implement such self-motivation. I don't understand how you can see the benefits in your own life and not want to give others the same.

[Truth-Bringer]

"In a 1967 article for the far-right American Mercury magazine, tax protester and editor Martin A. Larson writes, “The negroes in the United States are increasing at a rate at least twice as great as the rest of the population,” and warns that the tax burden posed by blacks “unquestionably doomed… the American way of life.” Larson will later write regular columns for the white supremacist magazine The Spotlight, in which he will call black women prostitutes whose “offspring run wild in the streets, free to forage their food in garbage cans, and grow up to become permanent reliefers, criminals, rioters, looters, and, in turn, breeders of huge litters of additional human beings belonging to the same category.” He will also write several books promoting Porth’s anti-tax protest strategies."

...

http://www.historycommons.org/entity...in_a__larson_1

It's unfortunate the man has racist views, and I disagree with him on that point, but that's still an ad hominem fallacy. If a KKK member says "2+2=4", he is correct, even though he's a racist scumbag.

You didn't refute any of the information in my post, BECAUSE YOU CANNOT. You must like a government where citizens can get their heads blown off by the IRS for failing to pay $40. Ah, the liberal compassion... Can you feel it?

[Chachma v'Oz]

Applause deserved. I think we would all be better off if more of us were required to self-motivate like that. Unfortunately, the policies you champion give the 17 year olds of today no incentive to discover and implement such self-motivation. I don't understand how you can see the benefits in your own life and not want to give others the same.

No one gave me the benefits. That's the point. If you have to entice people, it's not self-motivation, by definition.

Some of us self-motivate, some of us need inducements. As long as we get the message somehow and set our minds to getting 'er done, we're all better off. Ignoring those who lack the will is a drag on the whole economy.

[Truth-Bringer]

I'm not without a heart. I felt bad for doing that to Truth-Bringer's source, but it was necessary. Sometimes you need to scrutinize the messenger as well as the message.

That wasn't the only source, you deceptive fraud. You could not attack the others (and I'm sure you googled them as well) because you couldn't find any dirt on them. Regardless, as I stated earlier, that is an ad hominem fallacy and does not invalidate any of the information they presented about the crimes and atrocities the IRS has committed.

[Truth-Bringer]

Their words are not today's words. When they spoke of arms they didn't refer to nuclear weapons.

Straw Man. They spoke of guns and we know what they meant.

Words mean nothing without context, and their context was much different than it is today.

Words have meaning. They should also be viewed in their meaning and context at that time, as the Supreme Court once wisely recognized (back when they were reasoning properly).

"The Constitution is a written instrument. As such, its meaning does not alter. That which it meant when it was adopted, it means now." South Carolina v. United States, 199 U.S. 437, 448 (1905).

"The primary principle; underlying an interpretation of constitutions is that the intent is the vital part and the essence of the law." Rasmussen v. Barker, 7 Wyo. 117; 50 p 819.

To say the founding fathers meant one thing and one thing only is as absurd as saying that the words in the Bible mean one thing and one thing only. Their writings can at best be interpreted and that delegates them to the realm of general guidance, not decrees carved into stone.

Absolute utter nonsense. This is what liberal frauds like to do to justify the "living document" fallacy.

"Constitutions are not "living documents" as is contended by some ignorant and verbose commentators. Because a Constitution defines the structure, powers, and limitations of the government, such elements are fixed, except as such may be altered by the amendment process. When a Constitution includes language that protects personal liberties (sometimes called "natural rights" or "God-given rights"), these provisions must remain in effect, and remain fixed as they are for all time. They are not subject to modification by amendment because no one, not even our fellow Citizens, has the authority to deprive us of our liberty. If the Constitution in question is a Constitution that is operative in America, there is the added aspect that such Constitutions are controlled by the principles espoused in our Declaration of Independence. In the Declaration of Independence it states,

"...all men are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, - That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government."

In other words, if a Constitution was altered in such a way as to diminish personal liberties or remove their protections, then the government constituted by that Constitution would cease to be a valid government and the Citizens would be greatly justified in using whatever means necessary to bring that government to an end."

Source

[hadit]

No one gave me the benefits. That's the point. If you have to entice people, it's not self-motivation, by definition.

Some of us self-motivate, some of us need inducements. As long as we get the message somehow and set our minds to getting 'er done, we're all better off. Ignoring those who lack the will is a drag on the whole economy.

You're making my case. It's counter productive for society to let young, able-bodied adults believe that they really don't have to provide everything for themselves. Not having Big Brother standing behind you with a checkbook, as you discovered in your own case, is the most powerful incentive there is.

[Hyperbully]

That wasn't the only source, you deceptive fraud. You could not attack the others (and I'm sure you googled them as well) because you couldn't find any dirt on them. Regardless, as I stated earlier, that is an ad hominem fallacy and does not invalidate any of the information they presented about the crimes and atrocities the IRS has committed.

I didn't vet your other sources. I was stopped in my tracks at your first one, and how utterly disreputable and vile it was. Why don't you vet your own sources before citing them?

[Chachma v'Oz]

You're making my case. It's counter productive for society to let young, able-bodied adults believe that they really don't have to provide everything for themselves. Not having Big Brother standing behind you with a checkbook, as you discovered in your own case, is the most powerful incentive there is.

I'm disagreeing with you. Those who don't self-motivate need enticement to fulfill their potential. It doesn't matter what gets them going, only that they get with the program. Leaving them in the dust rather than promoting opportunities for them is not productive.

If they don't have the will to survive by their own efforts, throwing them in the deep end of the pool isn't going to make them learn to swim. It'll simply create another unnecessary casualty that the rest of us will have to deal with.

[Truth-Bringer]

I didn't vet your other sources.

ROTFL. Yeah, I'm sure...

I was stopped in my tracks at your first one, and how utterly disreputable and vile it was. Why don't you vet your own sources before citing them?

Again, because it's irrelevant. The information they presented was accurate. Even though racism is disgusting, I am more concerned with how utterly disreputable and vile it was for armed government agents to murder a man over $40 with no due process or trial.

[Hyperbully]

I have no way of knowing that the stories he cited were true. Since he had a racist, radical, far right-wing agenda, how am I to believe he didn't twist the information to suit his own ends?

[Truth-Bringer]

I have no way of knowing that the stories he cited were true.

Again, please stop acting as if he was the only source. You seem to be twisting the facts to support your radical far left-wing agenda. How am I to believe you're not twisting information to suit your own ends?

If you claim it's not true, then disprove it.

[TRUE LIBERTY]

Sorry to hear that. When I was 17 my mother remarried and moved away and I was also on my own, but I had been working seven days a week for five years by then and was doing fine - the only kid I knew of in high school with his own apartment. Some of us are motivated to do things before they become necessary, and that really pays off when the crunch comes.

Actually my parents were and are very well off. I was just a stupid stubborn teenager who didnt want to follow the rules anymore. Took my motorcycle dropped out of high school and went my own way. Ran out of money very fast and slept where I could find cover. Eventually managed to find a job picking up trash and cleaning out vacant homes for a company at 4.50 a hour. Got a basic apartment to live in and usually 10 or 15 dollars to live on for two weeks. Lots of Ramen Noodles. I was basically slowly starting to starve losing and losing weight. Decided maybe I could get food stamps. Showed up at the place and saw what a depressing sight the place and the people were I walked out. Decided right then and there I would either make it or die! Soon the lady who hired me saw me thinning drastically and would invite me over for dinner often. And she saw I would work and do the lowest jobs without complaint and managed to get me signed up through the company for a trade school on electrical, plumbing etc. Worked my way through the company until I managed my own territory. And finally my wife in 2008 convinced to start my own business which was a great idea. Anyways have never taken from the government but instead the COMMUNITY who helped me because I was willing to earn it.

[TRUE LIBERTY]

I'm disagreeing with you. Those who don't self-motivate need enticement to fulfill their potential. It doesn't matter what gets them going, only that they get with the program. Leaving them in the dust rather than promoting opportunities for them is not productive.

If they don't have the will to survive by their own efforts, throwing them in the deep end of the pool isn't going to make them learn to swim. It'll simply create another unnecessary casualty that the rest of us will have to deal with.

As long as it is not enticement with peoples tax dollars Im with you 100%. Otherwise it is there decision to rise or fall. Or swim or drown.