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So we must assume Bibi was against Ted "The Swimmer" Kennedy's the 1965 Immigration Act! Or as Brother Nathanael indicates, the hypocrisy of zionism is by design!
I Pledge Resistance, to the Nazi Flag, of the United Police States of America, and to the Private Federal Reserves for which it stands. One Corporation, under Goldman Sachs, unaccountable, with poverty and slavery for all.
So we must assume Bibi was against Ted "The Swimmer" Kennedy's the 1965 Immigration Act! Or as Brother Nathanael indicates, the hypocrisy of zionism is by design!
Israel is a Jewish state, and non-Jews are NOT entitled to immigrated there, regardless of their race. Black people who are Jewish by religion have no problem getting an Israeli citizenship, in fact, Israel helps them leave their countries and start a new better life in Israel, which is what happened to the Ethiopian Jews.
I feel bad for the Sudanese immigrants, but in the end of the day, they were lucky to even temporarily stay in Israel for that long, as all of Israel's neighbors were shooting them to death, just read about what happened to those refugees in Egypt. I'm glad that Israel saved their lives from their Arab oppressors in N. Sudan, however, now that S. Sudan is an independent country, thank God, it's time for them to go home
. Israel doesn't have room for the whole world, sorry.
^So does Bibi ask atheist zionists, khazars or whatever, to get out of the area also? If not, he is a racist SOB!
If they aren't Jewish by either religion or ethnicity, then obviously yesOriginally Posted by Šñøü†ê®
The Khazars no longer exist, however if they did, they would also have to convert to Judaism to move to Israelkhazars or whatever, to get out of the area also?
Interesting.
In Israel, aroundBibi says, "Don't let the door swat you in the ass!"50% of Israelis who were born ethnically Jewish consider themselves "secular" or hilonim, some of them still keep certain religious traditions for cultural reasons, but most are immersed within the secular Jewish culture. The number of atheists and agnostics is lower, and it stands at 15% to 37%. The 2009 Avi-Chai study found 77% of Israeli Jews believe in a "higher power", while 46% define themselves as secular, of which 3% define themselves as "anti-religious".[63] Conversely, the Fridman report for 2007 found that less than 20% define themselves as secular—and only 5% as anti-religious.[64]
Oh, wait, no he didn't...
I Pledge Resistance, to the Nazi Flag, of the United Police States of America, and to the Private Federal Reserves for which it stands. One Corporation, under Goldman Sachs, unaccountable, with poverty and slavery for all.
Israel is a JEWISH state, in other words, you must be either Jewish by ethnicity or religion to be entitled to have a citizenship
LOL. And how isn't that racist? Not that I give a damn.
Malcolm Wright (05-21-2012)
Because anybody can convert to Judaism
Really, and who makes these rules?
Judaism
I've known a few that have. What's to stop them?
GanjaFreebird (05-21-2012)
Its not that simple. Conversion to Judaism is strongly discouraged. People who want to are heavily vetted.Judaism
And Israel being effectively a mixture between a racist and a theocratic state is barely any better than it being solely racist.
I don't want to get knee deep in this discussion: I understand why Israel is the way it is. I just don't like to see you deny its nature.
Those Sudanese immigrants would have been good candidates for citizenship in many other countries. I guess its a shame for them they chose Israel.
M.
Šñøü†ê® (05-21-2012)
Not true, nobody is ever being denied conversion if they really want to convert
Israel is less racist than 95% of the other countries in the world, and it's a secular country, it's just that we want to keep it a Jewish state. This is OUR country, and if most Israelis oppose non-Jewish immigration, then you have to respect our right to self-determination, just like you do with Muslim countries, even when they do things that you personally oppose toAnd Israel being effectively a mixture between a racist and a theocratic state is barely any better than it being solely racist.
Israel is a Jewish state, I'm not denying it, I'm happy that it is a Jewish state and I wouldn't want it to be any other wayI don't want to get knee deep in this discussion: I understand why Israel is the way it is. I just don't like to see you deny its nature.
They didn't "chose" Israel, they hardly had any OTHER choices, since the Arab countries would shoot them just for entering (as they do in Egypt), let alone allow them to stay even temporarilyThose Sudanese immigrants would have been good candidates for citizenship in many other countries. I guess its a shame for them they chose Israel.
I didn't say people were refused. I said they were discouraged.Not true, nobody is ever being denied conversion if they really want to convert
Oh sure, its your country, and you can do whatever the hell you wantIsrael is less racist than 95% of the other countries in the world, and it's a secular country, it's just that we want to keep it a Jewish state. This is OUR country, and if most Israelis oppose non-Jewish immigration, then you have to respect our right to self-determination, just like you do with Muslim countries, even when they do things that you personally oppose to
I don't have to respect it though. I get annoyed with any country that discriminates in this manner.
What is this 95% claim? How did you arrive at it and what are your sources?
I'm glad you're happy.Israel is a Jewish state, I'm not denying it, I'm happy that it is a Jewish state and I wouldn't want it to be any other way
Israel could remain Jewish while accepting some non-Jewish immigrants. That's a fact.
They didn't "chose" Israel, they hardly had any OTHER choices, since the Arab countries would shoot them just for entering (as they do in Egypt), let alone allow them to stay even temporarily
Don't worry, I get it.
I'm not saying Israel needs to accept all the immigrants that want to settle there indiscriminately. But refugees are refugees.
http://www.asharq-e.com/news.asp?section=3&id=12104She also added that Israeli policy with regards to Sudanese refugees (and other nationalities) changes from time to time but that the essence of the policy was to get rid of them as soon as possible – but this policy faces strong opposition from the human rights associations in Israel.
However the opposition is not only limited to human rights organizations; in fact, the social work departments in four universities have hopped onto the bandwagon; The Hebrew University of Jerusalem; Ben-Gurion University in Negev, Beersheba; Tel Aviv University and the Open University of Israel. Some other universities are encouraging students to address the problems that these African families face while 63 Israeli MPs (out of 120) are calling for their support. Meanwhile, some heads of Israeli policy organizations have maintained that the state's policy with regards to the matter is "devoid of intelligence and sound political considerations" and "devoid of humane feelings."
Professor Yair Oron of the Open University of Israel said, "We, as Jewish people, have been oppressed and displaced throughout history and it embarrasses me to see the way the government is dealing with the situation. There is neglect of the victims of Darfur that reminds me of the world's neglect in the face of the Nazi’s attempt to annihilate the Jews."
M.
Even if true, it's irrelevant.
Including the Muslim worldOh sure, its your country, and you can do whatever the hell you want
I don't have to respect it though. I get annoyed with any country that discriminates in this manner.?
Common sense, knowledge of history and personal experience of traveling around the world and living in different places, for startsWhat is this 95% claim? How did you arrive at it and what are your sources?
And it does accept some non-Jewish immigrants, that's a fact. My uncle is married to a Korean woman and many Israelis happen to be non-Jews who got citizenship because of marriage, relatives or for doing brave things during WWII, among other reasonsI'm glad you're happy.
Israel could remain Jewish while accepting some non-Jewish immigrants. That's a fact.
But we can't have an unlimited non-Jewish immigration...we hardly have enough room for Jewish immigration, it's a VERY small country in case you haven't seen the map, especially if you want us to give half of the land to the Palestinians
Right.We are STRONG. We must not be mistaken for WEAK people. I hear a lot of that in discussions of Israel.
Don't worry, I get it.
We can't save everybody. We already did WAY more than any of our neighbours, or else those refugees wouldn't have to travel that far to begin with. Israel should be praised for giving them shelter during such tough times. But now that S. Sudan is independent of the Arab occupation, it's time for them to return home.I'm not saying Israel needs to accept all the immigrants that want to settle there indiscriminately. But refugees are refugees.
We did more to help the victims of Darfur than ANYBODY else, while the Arab world was watching Sudan enslaving and murdering them, and shot them in the back as they tried to escape, and while Louis Farrakhan and other sellout pieces of shit have been praising the Sudanese Arabs and said that it was just "American/Zionist propaganda". Give the Hebrews some credit hereWe, as Jewish people, have been oppressed and displaced throughout history and it embarrasses me to see the way the government is dealing with the situation. There is neglect of the victims of Darfur that reminds me of the world's neglect in the face of the Nazi’s attempt to annihilate the Jews.".
It is certainly relevant. But I'm torn as to whether I think it is a good or a bad thing. Its actually quite refreshing that a religion should at first discourage people from converting to it. The opposite behavior is obnoxious
Of course, Mr Slinky Winky.Including the Muslim world
I would question your conclusions. Racism exists in all societies, and Israel has the added challenge of being a state that actually defines itself ethnically on top of that normal background of racism. That should place it somewhat higher on the scale than most developed nations. When you consider the restrictions legally imposed on Palestinians in the Jewish state, your argument fritters further away. 95% sounds absurd.Common sense, knowledge of history and personal experience of traveling around the world and living in different places, for starts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel
Try to be more objective about Israel, Ganja.The Association for Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI) published reports documenting racism in Israel, and the 2007 report suggested that anti-Arab racism in the country was increasing. One analysis of the report summarized it thus: "Over two-thirds Israeli teens believe Arabs to be less intelligent, uncultured and violent. Over a third of Israeli teens fear Arabs all together....The report becomes even grimmer, citing the ACRI's racism poll, taken in March 2007, in which 50% of Israelis taking part said they would not live in the same building as Arabs, will not befriend, or let their children befriend Arabs and would not let Arabs into their homes."[11] The 2008 report from ACRI says the trend of increasing racism is continuing.[12] An Israeli minister charged the poll as biased and not credible.[13] The Israeli government spokesman responded that the Israeli government was "committed to fighting racism whenever it raises it ugly head and is committed to full equality to all Israeli citizens, irrespective of ethnicity, creed or background, as defined by our declaration of independence".[13] Isi Leibler of the Jerusalem Center for Public affairs argues that Israeli Jews are troubled by "increasingly hostile, even treasonable outbursts by Israeli Arabs against the state" while it is at war with neighboring countries,[14]
Another 2007 report, by the Center Against Racism, also found hostility against Arabs was on the rise. Among its findings it reported that 75%of Israeli Jews don't approve of Arabs and Jews sharing apartment buildings; that over half of Jews wouldn't want to have an Arab boss and that marrying an Arab amounts to "national treason"; and that 55% of the sample thought Arabs should be kept separate from Jews in entertainment sites. Half wanted the Israeli government to encourage Israeli Arabs to immigrate. About 40% believed Arab citizens should have their voting rights removed.[15]
A March 2010 poll by Tel Aviv University found that 49.5% of Israeli Jewish high school students believe Israeli Arabs should not be entitled to the same rights as Jews in Israel. 56% believe Arabs should not be eligible to the Knesset, the Israeli parliament.[16]
An October 2010 poll by the Dahaf polling agency found that 36% of Israeli Jews favor eliminating voting rights for non-Jews.[17] In recent polling (2003–2009) between 42% and 56% of Israelis agreed that "Israeli Arabs suffer from discrimination as opposed to Jewish citizens;" 80% of Israeli Arabs agreed with that statement in 2009.[18]
Fair enough.And it does accept some non-Jewish immigrants, that's a fact. My uncle is married to a Korean woman and many Israelis happen to be non-Jews who got citizenship because of marriage, relatives or for doing brave things during WWII, among other reasons
You like to roll your eyes don't you, as if the world was constantly being unreasonable...But we can't have an unlimited non-Jewish immigration...we hardly have enough room for Jewish immigration, it's a VERY small country in case you haven't seen the map, especially if you want us to give half of the land to the Palestinians
Yes it is a small country. The preference for Jewish immigrants is part of the problem. If you look at the numbers of Jewish people encouraged to make Israel their home, and the tiny percentage of refugees in comparison, you get a picture of discrimination against people truly in need, in favor of people who merely have chosen to relocate, based on race. I'm sorry Ganja - I wish I was making this up.
I officially wish to give the Hebrews mad props here. There are plenty of people in Israel who look at this situation with compassion, including the Prof Yair Oron previously quoted. You're the one who is knee-jerking against the notion of letting some of these people stay, not all Hebrews in general.We can't save everybody. We already did WAY more than any of our neighbours, or else those refugees wouldn't have to travel that far to begin with. Israel should be praised for giving them shelter during such tough times. But now that S. Sudan is independent of the Arab occupation, it's time for them to return home.
We did more to help the victims of Darfur than ANYBODY else, while the Arab world was watching Sudan enslaving and murdering them, and shot them in the back as they tried to escape, and while Louis Farrakhan and other sellout pieces of shit have been praising the Sudanese Arabs and said that it was just "American/Zionist propaganda". Give the Hebrews some credit here
M.
Last edited by Malcolm Wright; 05-22-2012 at 02:33 AM.
If anybody wants to convert to Judaism, they obviously can, and yes, it's a good thing that we aren't forcing our religion on othersIt is certainly relevant. But I'm torn as to whether I think it is a good or a bad thing. Its actually quite refreshing that a religion should at first discourage people from converting to it. The opposite behavior is obnoxious
I don't hear you saying ANYTHING bad about the Arab/Muslim world, despite the fact that they are guilty of racism, religious discrimination and human rights violations WAYYYYY more than Israel could EVER be even at its worstOf course, Mr Slinky Winky.
Almost every state defines itself ethnically to a degree, but Israel is different because anybody of ANY ethnicity can always convert to Judaism. Israel was specifically created to protect the Jewish people, not to become a multi-cultural/religious state.I would question your conclusions. Racism exists in all societies, and Israel has the added challenge of being a state that actually defines itself ethnically on top of that normal background of racism.
They aren't citizens of Israel and they aren't entitled to shit. Israeli Arabs have full equal rights, including special rights such as not having to serve in the military, all kinds of affirmative action, and getting extra welfare for their villages.When you consider the restrictions legally imposed on Palestinians in the Jewish state, your argument fritters further away.
That has to do with culture, not with their race (which is the same as ours). The Arabs feel the same way about us, by the waye report becomes even grimmer, citing the ACRI's racism poll, taken in March 2007, in which 50% of Israelis taking part said they would not live in the same building as Arabs, will not befriend, or let their children befriend Arabs and would not let Arabs into their homes."[
When the Palestinians will stop terrorism and recognize the Jewish state, and when Israeli Arab politicians will stop acting like such fuckin' traitors and rats, things will get MUCH better. Yes, the Israelis are fed up with a lot of shit, so what, I can't really blame them, even when I don't approve of some attitudes.Another 2007 report, by the Center Against Racism, also found hostility against Arabs was on the rise. Among its findings it reported that 75%of Israeli Jews don't approve of Arabs and Jews sharing apartment buildings; that over half of Jews wouldn't want to have an Arab boss and that marrying an Arab amounts to "national treason"; and that 55% of the sample thought Arabs should be kept separate from Jews in entertainment sites. Half wanted the Israeli government to encourage Israeli Arabs to immigrate. About 40% believed Arab citizens should have their voting rights removed.[15]
A March 2010 poll by Tel Aviv University found that 49.5% of Israeli Jewish high school students believe Israeli Arabs should not be entitled to the same rights as Jews in Israel. 56% believe Arabs should not be eligible to the Knesset, the Israeli parliament.[16]
An October 2010 poll by the Dahaf polling agency found that 36% of Israeli Jews favor eliminating voting rights for non-Jews.[17] In recent polling (2003–2009) between 42% and 56% of Israelis agreed that "Israeli Arabs suffer from discrimination as opposed to Jewish citizens;" 80% of Israeli Arabs agreed with that statement in 2009.[18]
The same goes to you.Try to be more objective about Israel, Ganja.
AT LEAST for 2,000 yearsYou like to roll your eyes don't you, as if the world was constantly being unreasonable...
No, it's a part of the solution. This is a JEWISH state, not a state for EVERYBODY, and if you don't like it, you still got 99.9999% of the rest of the worldYes it is a small country. The preference for Jewish immigrants is part of the problem.
Israel wasn't created to be a home for refugees from Sudan. South Sudan was created for that purpose, and I'm not trying to force S. Sudan to accept thousands of Jewish immigrants, so please give Israel the same respect. If most Israelis don't want a non-Jewish immigration and want to keep Israel Jewish, then that's how it is. We didn't create Israel to become a minority in OUR OWN homeland. The Jewish people all around the world are entitled to Israel, and as for everybody else, we'll help them as much as we can, but we need to look out for our people first of all, sorry, that's just life.If you look at the numbers of Jewish people encouraged to make Israel their home, and the tiny percentage of refugees in comparison, you get a picture of discrimination against people truly in need, in favor of people who merely have chosen to relocate, based on race. I'm sorry Ganja - I wish I was making this up.
Personally speaking, I have no problem with the Sudanese refugees (most of them are pro-Israel anyways), and I would MUCH rather share Israel with them than Arab Muslims in general, however, I'm not most Israelis as you said, and if most Israelis don't want ANY kind of unlimited non-Jewish immigration, then you have to respect the democratic process.I officially wish to give the Hebrews mad props here. There are plenty of people in Israel who look at this situation with compassion, including the Prof Yair Oron previously quoted. You're the one who is knee-jerking against the notion of letting some of these people stay, not all Hebrews in general.
There are no muslims here to debate with.I don't hear you saying ANYTHING bad about the Arab/Muslim world, despite the fact that they are guilty of racism, religious discrimination and human rights violations WAYYYYY more than Israel could EVER be even at its worst
From now on you and I are going to do a little dance. Every time you roll your eyes, I'm going to shrug. We can call it the DA shuffle.
Yes, yes, I understand that. It is possible to accept some refugees without losing your Jewish identity as a nation. It is all in the amounts accepted.Almost every state defines itself ethnically to a degree, but Israel is different because anybody of ANY ethnicity can always convert to Judaism. Israel was specifically created to protect the Jewish people, not to become a multi-cultural/religious state.
Who said they were? Talking to yourself there?They aren't citizens of Israel and they aren't entitled to shit.
Equal in the eyes of the law does not spell an absence of racism, as you well know.Israeli Arabs have full equal rights, including special rights such as not having to serve in the military, all kinds of affirmative action, and getting extra welfare for their villages.
It is racism even if you consider you are part of the same race. Technically we could all be said to be of the same 'race', but racism still exists. Regardless of how the Arabs feel, my point was simply to question your absurd assertion that Israel is less racist than 95% of other countries. Once you've conceded that's not true, we can move on.That has to do with culture, not with their race (which is the same as ours). The Arabs feel the same way about us, by the way
I agree!When the Palestinians will stop terrorism and recognize the Jewish state, and when Israeli Arab politicians will stop acting like such fuckin' traitors and rats, things will get MUCH better. Yes, the Israelis are fed up with a lot of shit, so what, I can't really blame them, even when I don't approve of some attitudes.
Meanwhile, there is plenty of racism in Israel.
What have I said that is not objective? Concretely?The same goes to you.
Unlike you, I have not thrown bizarre percentages around trying to claim one thing or another.
Touché - the world is a very unreasonable place, and not just towards the Jewish people.AT LEAST for 2,000 years
However rolling your eyes at me all the time is stupid. I'm not quite as unreasonable as the rest of the world.
The fact remains, if you are letting large amounts of people in because they are of a certain ethnic background, and denying others access because they are not, even though these people are REFUGEES, you get a situation where people in Israel and around the world see racism at work, and a lack of compassion.No, it's a part of the solution. This is a JEWISH state, not a state for EVERYBODY, and if you don't like it, you still got 99.9999% of the rest of the world
You seem to need to remind me all the time that Israel is a Jewish state. I'm well aware of that, but it doesn't do a single thing to change the racism in its policies - in fact, that's the cause of the racism in its policies.
Nobody is suggesting you become a minority in your own homeland. The fact that you always have to push the conversation to extremes shows you can't deal with my arguments such as they are. Isreal can afford to allow SOME Sudanese refugees to stay and become citizens.Israel wasn't created to be a home for refugees from Sudan. South Sudan was created for that purpose, and I'm not trying to force S. Sudan to accept thousands of Jewish immigrants, so please give Israel the same respect. If most Israelis don't want a non-Jewish immigration and want to keep Israel Jewish, then that's how it is. We didn't create Israel to become a minority in OUR OWN homeland. The Jewish people all around the world are entitled to Israel, and as for everybody else, we'll help them as much as we can, but we need to look out for our people first of all, sorry, that's just life.
Unlimited - again, nobody spoke of unlimited non-Jewish immigration but you.Personally speaking, I have no problem with the Sudanese refugees (most of them are pro-Israel anyways), and I would MUCH rather share Israel with them than Arab Muslims in general, however, I'm not most Israelis as you said, and if most Israelis don't want ANY kind of unlimited non-Jewish immigration, then you have to respect the democratic process.
So would you be ok with some of them staying?
M.
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