Cory Booker slams Obama campaign ad attacking Romney’s Bain Capital record

[jwreck]

Yes I have insurance, but I also have a plan B. Anyone who doesn't recognize the fragility of things is just hopelessly optimistic, or unrealistic, however you want to say it. I have this conversation quite often with people in my field. I am in an artificially inflated and quickly becoming outdated industry. Just because you have a job now doesn't mean you will always have a job. Shit happens. As I said, should we subsidize blacksmiths? Newspapers? Phonograph factories?

Just because you want to make everything personal and sympathize with those who have been wronged by the process doesn't make the process evil. Economics is not a personal endeavor.

Not to mention, insurance is just legalized racketeering IMNSHO.

[9ball8]

Still no comment regarding failure to honor contracts. Can't always be done, I know, but post #21 seems to blow off the habit of ignoring contracts. This from jwreck, after garyd goes round & round with me on the same issue (contracts, not Bain Capital in particular). I hope this is not a trend from non-liberals? Why would it take liberal/socialist types to defend contract law and ethics? I thought such defense should be the strong point of the "pro-business" party. Guess not.

[Malcolm Wright]

Yes I have insurance, but I also have a plan B. Anyone who doesn't recognize the fragility of things is just hopelessly optimistic, or unrealistic, however you want to say it. I have this conversation quite often with people in my field. I am in an artificially inflated and quickly becoming outdated industry. Just because you have a job now doesn't mean you will always have a job. Shit happens. As I said, should we subsidize blacksmiths? Newspapers? Phonograph factories?

Just because you want to make everything personal and sympathize with those who have been wronged by the process doesn't make the process evil. Economics is not a personal endeavor.

Not to mention, insurance is just legalized racketeering IMNSHO.

The question isn't whether those people had plan B's or not. The question is why are you focusing on admonishing the victims? You can't even see that you're doing it, because you claim to not be ignoring anything. You're ignoring the whole point, which is what was done to them.

You know, to say shit happens in the face of deliberate harm is pathological.

If someone walks up to you and clocks you with a 2 by 4, will you turn to me and say, luckily, I have a plan B. I don't need the teeth I just lost because I have a really good dentist and dental plan, and he'll give me new ones. Besides, I'm a loser for thinking this might not happen. The guy who clocked me is clearly a winner: look there he is walking off with my wallet - I lose, he wins.

OR, will you f*** up the guy who stepped to you?

This is a test to see if that angry, gun toting meat eating Jwreck actually has an ounce of righteousness in him, or if he's as mousy and defeatist as he seems to be making himself out to be. You seem to have no idea how ridiculous the position you are taking is.

M.

[Malcolm Wright]

Still no comment regarding failure to honor contracts.

Right, and he says he's ignoring nothing. LOL.

This from jwreck, after garyd goes round & round with me on the same issue (contracts, not Bain Capital in particular). I hope this is not a trend from non-liberals? Why would it take liberal/socialist types to defend contract law and ethics? I thought such defense should be the strong point of the "pro-business" party. Guess not.

Hold up the mirror long enough and Jwreck will eventually see what's wrong with this picture. I hope for all our sakes it doesn't take too long. The amount of time people waste in denial is tragic. I hope I have a friend to urge me out of it next time I do it.

M.

[Lulu]

There's usually no contract regarding pensions, unless there is a union involved. I thought Bain usually sliced & diced private companies. And nothing is assured these days... that is the ultimate lesson. For example, I have a pension with my company - I always view that as an extra and I don't count on it because they can take it away at any time. It isn't my money, it's their money that they have "invested" for me so *poof* it can disappear. The only people assured of pensions these days are teachers, state & govt. workers (which is a whole 'nother issue, but it is what it is). That being said, my plan is to leave my company within the next 3-5 years and trust me, I'll be taking a lump sum to invest how I see fit. I will not rely on my company to pay me a pension in 20 years, and I don't know if they will still be in business.

You all can talk about the injustice of this but I don't think Bain is any worse than much of large corporate America, where CEOs cut pensions and benefits and staff and still manage to collect hefty bonuses.

[Malcolm Wright]

There's usually no contract regarding pensions, unless there is a union involved. I thought Bain usually sliced & diced private companies. And nothing is assured these days... that is the ultimate lesson. For example, I have a pension with my company - I always view that as an extra and I don't count on it because they can take it away at any time. It isn't my money, it's their money that they have "invested" for me so *poof* it can disappear. The only people assured of pensions these days are teachers, state & govt. workers (which is a whole 'nother issue, but it is what it is). That being said, my plan is to leave my company within the next 3-5 years and trust me, I'll be taking a lump sum to invest how I see fit. I will not rely on my company to pay me a pension in 20 years, and I don't know if they will still be in business.

You all can talk about the injustice of this but I don't think Bain is any worse than much of large corporate America, where CEOs cut pensions and benefits and staff and still manage to collect hefty bonuses.

I don't think anyone is arguing they're much worse than the other gangsters

M.

[BooRadley]

Remember in Goodfellas where they bought the restaurant? Buy it, run up huge debt, pocketing all of it, then when it's bust, burn the place down and let the insurance pay for it? That's basically what they did. The Pauli Cicero school of business. Except in the movie no one tried to elect the gangster President . . . because truth is stranger than fiction.

[Chachma v'Oz]

I have a pension with my company - I always view that as an extra and I don't count on it because they can take it away at any time. It isn't my money, it's their money that they have "invested" for me so *poof* it can disappear.

You may not realize it, but that pension plan is a part of the cost to your employer of your compensation package. What you're gaining from having the pension plan you're giving up in some other area of compensation, like salary. It's not a freebie; the cost is coming out of your pocket. Employers don't give employees anything, though it certainly works to their advantage for employees to think that they do.

[Lulu]

You may not realize it, but that pension plan is a part of the cost to your employer of your compensation package. What you're gaining from having the pension plan you're giving up in some other area of compensation, like salary. It's not a freebie; the cost is coming out of your pocket. Employers don't give employees anything, though it certainly works to their advantage for employees to think that they do.

Well, it isn't coming out of my salary, nor is it coming out of any other benefits. Both salary & benefits are generous. I understand they have tax reasons for even having a pension - however, new hires get no pension right now. The bottom line is I am not guaranteed that money, nor are most workers in other industries. We can talk about how things should be or what would be ethical, I'd prefer to be realistic with how things are and plan accordingly.

[caddis]

T
In the end, my feeling is that although Bain Capital's operations are more or less accepted practice: they are none the less deserving of blame when they go horribly wrong for the workers, yet still make a pretty penny for Bain Capital.

This episode, and Obama's attacks on capitalism, demonstrate the difference between a candidate who has succeeded in private enterprise and a candidate(and administration) that has advanced his career in the government sector.

1) A businessman knows not to throw good money after bad.

2) Government is notorious for solving problems by spending more money. Government programs never die, no matter how big a failure they are, they always increase in size.

In the end, there are two trains of thought and the Obama Express is a diesel guzzling monstrosity that needs to be derailed.

[Freedom&Liberty]

How many jobs were saved by Romney and Bain? Focusing on jobs that were lost while ignoring those that were saved is partisan BS. Bain was hired to close a company or save it from closing. No one should be surprised that they made a profit either way. If the issue is that Bain made too much profit, then it's time to actually and finally define "fair share".

[jwreck]

This seems to epitomize the difference between union thinking and non-union thinking. Union types tend to think that once you've secured a job, your professional life is complete. All that's left to do is collect your step raises and senority based promotions until you retire.

As far as contracts, the contract wasn't with Bain as far as I know, it was with the original company. When that company is no longer feasible, the contract goes away. It seems pretty obvious to me.

[jwreck]

You may not realize it, but that pension plan is a part of the cost to your employer of your compensation package. What you're gaining from having the pension plan you're giving up in some other area of compensation, like salary. It's not a freebie; the cost is coming out of your pocket. Employers don't give employees anything, though it certainly works to their advantage for employees to think that they do.

Yes, and part of the risk you accept in taking a pension plan (future pay) in leu of salary is that the pension may or may not be there when you're ready for it.

[Freedom&Liberty]

Union labor is notorious for making companies uncompetitive.

[jwreck]

Not to mention, for all the hoopla about pensions, my case (since Malcolm seems so happy to make this about me) is actually the opposite. Our pension has been built up by savvy private investments, and now the city government wants to come in and confiscate that money for its own purpose (as has been done in many cases across the country). So all this hand wringing about the evils of private business is just so much propaganda.

[Malcolm Wright]

Well, it isn't coming out of my salary, nor is it coming out of any other benefits. Both salary & benefits are generous. I understand they have tax reasons for even having a pension - however, new hires get no pension right now. The bottom line is I am not guaranteed that money, nor are most workers in other industries. We can talk about how things should be or what would be ethical, I'd prefer to be realistic with how things are and plan accordingly.

How does it work in the US?
In NZ and Australia, companies pay into a pension fund that is independently managed, every pay cycle. So the money is already paid over to a third party, and gets released at retirement.

M.

[Chachma v'Oz]

Well, it isn't coming out of my salary, nor is it coming out of any other benefits. Both salary & benefits are generous. I understand they have tax reasons for even having a pension - however, new hires get no pension right now. The bottom line is I am not guaranteed that money, nor are most workers in other industries. We can talk about how things should be or what would be ethical, I'd prefer to be realistic with how things are and plan accordingly.

I think the bottom line is you don't realize your value to the company and are willing to work for less than you're worth without realizing it. Your employer isn't giving you anything and you seem to feel that even that's actually more than you're earning for him.

No wonder some employers discourage employees from organizing. Union workers know their value to their employer and are compensated appropriately for it, contractually, just like professionals negotiate compensation packages based on their worth to the company.

Thank Goodness for workers who feel like you do. Without those, there'd be less for managers, supervisors and union workers to take home on payday. There's only so much allotted for labor costs, and the less some employees expect, the more left over for those who understand their value.

No one should put all his eggs in one basket if it's avoidable. I negotiated for a pension plan but also invested in IRAs on my own. We all need a plan B, but that doesn't mean we can be cavalier, or think we're not paying for, plan A too.

[jwreck]

How does it work in the US?
In NZ and Australia, companies pay into a pension fund that is independently managed, every pay cycle. So the money is already paid over to a third party, and gets released at retirement.

M.

That's essentially how my pension works.

[Malcolm Wright]

Not to mention, for all the hoopla about pensions, my case (since Malcolm seems so happy to make this about me) is actually the opposite. Our pension has been built up by savvy private investments, and now the city government wants to come in and confiscate that money for its own purpose (as has been done in many cases across the country). So all this hand wringing about the evils of private business is just so much propaganda.

Haha, so your example of 'evil government' somehow means any talk of 'evil priveate business' propaganda? Its an either/or situation?

I don't want to make it about you anymore than you force me to. I started trying to make basic, personal examples to bring something home to you that you are pathologically keeping at a distance. But that's ok - arguing with a sociopath because you want him to have more compassion is like arguing a cat should sprout wings. I realize that's not realistic

All good, mate. I'm done. As usual its all been a learning experience.

M.

[jwreck]

I think the bottom line is you don't realize your value to the company and are willing to work for less than you're worth without realizing it. Your employer isn't giving you anything and you seem to feel that even that's actually more than you're earning for him.

No wonder some employers discourage employees from organizing. Union workers know their value to their employer and are compensated appropriately for it, contractually, just like professionals negotiate compensation packages based on their worth to the company.

Thank Goodness for workers who feel like you do. Without those, there'd be less for managers, supervisors and union workers to take home on payday. There's only so much allotted for labor costs, and the less some employees expect, the more left over for those who understand their value.

Bullshit. You're just being patronizing.

No one should put all his eggs in one basket if it's avoidable. I negotiated for a pension plan but also invested in IRAs on my own. We all need a plan B, but that doesn't mean we can be cavalier, or think we're not paying for, plan A too.

Exactly my point. Glad you finally agree.