Zimmerman lies on the stand

[DngrMse]

The first bolded section are items you never demonstrated, despite being asked to repeatedly. One must simply conclude that you like to talk shit, rather than debate?

I have responded. You ignored it.

[Malcolm Wright]

I have responded. You ignored it.

If you tell me where, I'll respond. I did not purposefully ignore any of your posts.
Or better yet, you can cut and paste your former post here to centralize things.

But remember that's only one of two problems you have to address. The other bolded part is just as important.

M.

[Malcolm Wright]

It doesn't prove shit and the open minded Malconcent knows it. I suppose if I saw soemone in a hoodie, in the rain, at night that appeared to be up to no good I might consider him a teenager too, but after Zimmerman got his ass kicked by the "kid" he might have changed his mind on his age-estimate.

Because a 26 year old would have more physical strength and better reflexes than someone in their late teens?
That's not a compelling argument.

M.

[9ball8]

Here's where it gets tough for Z, if he continues to fail on consistency (and I'm basically repeating Malcom's point). He might be requested to take the stand by his own defense attorney, since a big part of that defense is his word on how the fight started and how it went from there.
If the prosecution can point out enough inconsistencies in Z's statements, it would make it easier to convict, unless there is other evidence (witnesses, forensics, etc) that back up the central argument made by the defense. The defendant's word that he followed all the laws usually leaves the jury a bit doubtful in most cases. Maybe I'm cynical & just plain wrong about that. If anyone thinks so, please state your case -pun intended.

[9ball8]

Because a 26 year old would have more physical strength and better reflexes than someone in their late teens?
That's not a compelling argument.

M.

Actually, that is a decent argument, but a drop of water in a parched desert. Maybe not compelling, but a good basis along with other defense items to be presented. On DA, we've seen attacks on character and assumptions that the defendant's word is compelling evidence, so far. I'll look forward to the trial, as I understand Z's lawyer is quite good. Pretty much no fun and no stimulating challenges until I can sink my frontal lobes into the actual trial, it seems.

[Malcolm Wright]

Actually, that is a decent argument, but a drop of water in a parched desert. Maybe not compelling, but a good basis along with other defense items to be presented. On DA, we've seen attacks on character and assumptions that the defendant's word is compelling evidence, so far. I'll look forward to the trial, as I understand Z's lawyer is quite good. Pretty much no fun and no stimulating challenges until I can sink my frontal lobes into the actual trial, it seems.

I feel the same way. I think a lot of extra detail is going to come out with the proceedings.

Yes, that's an argument worth throwing out there for the defense - but its not compelling to me. If I've already judged someone's age from their height, weight and the way they move, being surprised by their fighting skills isn't going to change my assessment of their age. It'll change my assessment of how fit they are, how fast they are, and how well they can fight.

Zimmerman not only accurately guessed Martin's age in the first part of the 911 call - he later on referred to Martin as a kid. He had a well formed opinion by then. Subsequently getting his ass kicked is actually not a logical reason for deciding the kid is older than his late teens.

M.

[queenlillian1962]

Hey Q - work with me here. People can't guess my age to save their lives. I know exactly what you're saying.
But that is far from the point here.

Zimmerman CORRECTLY guessed Martin's age on the night of the shooting. His guess was solicited by the 911 dispatcher, and was recorded in that call: he guessed Martin was in his late teens. Martin is in fact 17. Great guess. Well done Zimmerman.

The problem is that although Zimmerman has since had confirmation that his impression that night was spot on, he chose to lie in court and say that he had believed Martin to be only a little younger than his own 28 years of age.

M.

Yes he guessed the person was in his late teen but even for the law there is a difference between 18,19 being considered an adult and 17 being still considered a legal minor. Some might even say 15,16 and 17 mid teen years not late teen years. I think the essence of Zimmermans appology was he didn't know Matin was a 17 year old kid. In zimmermans mind 17 might not be late teens so I doubt you can say it's a direct lie.

[queenlillian1962]

Did anyone here say it proves anything asides from the fact that he lied? Did you read the OP?
If you have a shred of objectivity, you'll recognize that someone who lies in court can't expect their credibility to rate highly. And Zimmerman's only currency is his credibility, because for the moment we have to take his word for key moments of the events. If his word isn't worth much, that's his loss, unless of course the jury seems to care as little about lies as you, Freedom and Liberty, and Antiquity here.

M.

Well lets see. He went on a neighborhood watch round, got his ass beat by a 17 year old,killed said 17 year old, that alone is enough to shake most people up. Pile on the unfounded accusations of racism,having half the country hate your and having to go into hiding because the Black Panthers put a bounty on your head even though the police didn't even arrest you. Then you find yourself up on the witness stand accused of murder. After all that what makes you think he's not nervous as hell and his mind isn't scrambled that he might not make a statement that completely agrees with what you think he should say?

[Malcolm Wright]

Yes he guessed the person was in his late teen but even for the law there is a difference between 18,19 being considered an adult and 17 being still considered a legal minor. Some might even say 15,16 and 17 mid teen years not late teen years. I think the essence of Zimmermans appology was he didn't know Matin was a 17 year old kid. In zimmermans mind 17 might not be late teens so I doubt you can say it's a direct lie.

Well I can say without sarcasm that that's very generous of you.
I don't think most people would be that generous. There are 4 teen years before, and two after 17. But the important thing is he is now choosing to say he thought Martin was closer to 26-27. That's a big difference even if you want to imagine Martin thought the boy was 19 that night.

M.

[queenlillian1962]

Because a 26 year old would have more physical strength and better reflexes than someone in their late teens?
That's not a compelling argument.

M.

No dear a 26 year old MIGHT have more strength than a 17 year old. If Zimmerman was out of shape and Martin worked out Martin could over take Zimmerman. I beleive Zimmerman also said he was on his way back to his truck when Martin attacked so he might not have been expecting a physical confrontation. Martin sounds like a fairly grown young man so the element of surprise might have been there when he attacked Zimmerman giving Martin the edge. Didn't witnesses say Zimmerman was the one on the ground being attacked?

[queenlillian1962]

Well I can say without sarcasm that that's very generous of you.
I don't think most people would be that generous. There are 4 teen years before, and two after 17. But the important thing is he is now choosing to say he thought Martin was closer to 26-27. That's a big difference even if you want to imagine Martin thought the boy was 19 that night.

M.

When he saw Martin in the dark he might have thought he was in his teens and he was right. While he was on the ground getting his ass beat he might have felt differently due to the agressivness of the attack. Actually it's not a big difference to someone that young, at least I never thought so when I was dating. You think there is a big difference but Zimmerman might not agree with you. Everybody has a different opinion about how much difference age makes. Many say it's just a number while others see a big gap.

[Malcolm Wright]

No dear a 26 year old MIGHT have more strength than a 17 year old. If Zimmerman was out of shape and Martin worked out Martin could over take Zimmerman. I beleive Zimmerman also said he was on his way back to his truck when Martin attacked so he might not have been expecting a physical confrontation. Martin sounds like a fairly grown young man so the element of surprise might have been there when he attacked Zimmerman giving Martin the edge. Didn't witnesses say Zimmerman was the one on the ground being attacked?

Q - you're arguing against a different point than the one that was being made. Read more carefully please. If you read 9ball8's response to that post, he understood, and so will you.

M.

[Malcolm Wright]

When he saw Martin in the dark he might have thought he was in his teens and he was right. While he was on the ground getting his ass beat he might have felt differently due to the agressivness of the attack. Actually it's not a big difference to someone that young, at least I never thought so when I was dating. You think there is a big difference but Zimmerman might not agree with you. Everybody has a different opinion about how much difference age makes. Many say it's just a number while others see a big gap.

Deadly aggression in American males of the 21st century starts much younger than 17. Why would high aggression levels change your mind about the age of a stranger from say 18 to 26? If there's any trend I can see, it's that people slowly mellow after their teen age years. But anyway, its simply not a measuring stick for age.

But its clear to me that you're going out of your way to let him off the hook. That's your right. It just doesn't seem very objective.

M.

[Cyclone Ranger]

I'm not talking about technical perjury, but something you and I, and the jury can recognize as a lie.

It's not necessarily a lie. He may have estimated his approximate age, but that doesn't mean he knew it for a fact. He didn't consult his birth certificate, did he?

[Malcolm Wright]

It's not necessarily a lie. He may have estimated his approximate age, but that doesn't mean he knew it for a fact. He didn't consult his birth certificate, did he?

Cyclone, that's all fine and well but the man volunteered more than just the approximation. He offered two significantly DIFFERENT estimates, the first of which was remarkably accurate. After the first, accurate one, he found out that Martin was indeed in his late teens, once he had shot him. In other words he received confirmation that his first estimate was correct.

It his subsequent misrepresentation of what his estimate was that is a lie.

M.

[caddis]

Because a 26 year old would have more physical strength and better reflexes than someone in their late teens?
That's not a compelling argument.

M.

A opposed to your compelling argument as damning proof that Zimmerman lied? You know, the argument that Zimmerman's general impression of Martin's age...before he ever confronted him face to face,....outweighs his assessment after they met, communicated, and fought.


Yeah, I'll buy that.

[Malcolm Wright]

A opposed to your compelling argument as damning proof that Zimmerman lied? You know, the argument that Zimmerman's general impression of Martin's age...before he ever confronted him face to face,....outweighs his assessment after they met, communicated, and fought.


Yeah, I'll buy that.

You should buy it.
As you go about your daily business. Try assessing someone's age visually, before exchanging a few words with them. If you honestly find that your assessment changes significantly after you've exchanged a few words, let me know.

M.

[antiquity]

If this statement is all Malcolm and the prosecution has, I think the prosecution doesn't have a case. "I did not know how old he was. I thought he was a little bit younger than I am".

I will be content to let the case go to jury and let them decide innocent of guilt. But it will be interesting to see what the eye witness has to say on the stand.

[Malcolm Wright]

If this statement is all Malcolm and the prosecution has, I think the prosecution doesn't have a case. "I did not know how old he was. I thought he was a little bit younger than I am".

Naturally. It has no bearing on his guilt. Only on his credibility. If you were able to read and comprehend, you'd find that no other claim has been made here.

I will be content to let the case go to jury and let them decide innocent of guilt. But it will be interesting to see what the eye witness has to say on the stand.

Agreed. Again, naturally.

M.

[antiquity]

Naturally. It has no bearing on his guilt. Only on his credibility. If you were able to read and comprehend, you'd find that no other claim has been made here.

Are you just responding just to built up your post count. If you think "I did not know how old he was. I thought he was a little bit younger than I am" has every thing to do with his credibility than you have already made up your mind to his guilt.

If you want to center the case on that statement than they might as well release him right now.