Oh, no...Obama's Birth Cert is actually FAKED. I'm CONVINCED!!

[optimus]

What I have seen with my own eyes, and what the scriptures teach is that certain things separate people from God. It's definitely not limited to marijuana, or other drugs. I'm sure this will be completely unpopular (hey, what else is new) but getting high on a habitual basis is a sin, and sin separates people from God. And that's not the end of it... There's actually more to be said about this, but for now I'll leave it at that.

It doesn't separate you from God, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. If anything, depending on set and setting, marijuana can be a spiritual experience. Maybe not on the level of ayahuasca, which is truly a spiritual plant, but it's pretty good. Cannabis has played a role in spirituality for a very long time.

[Malcolm Wright]

No, we weren't talking about legality at all. We were just talking about whether or not marijuana is addictive. Then the discussion took another turn, when kelly brought up religion.

Ah, ok, fair enough. I didn't understand why caffeine was being brought in if not to contrast the illegality of marijuana with a substance that is more addictive and yet legal. But I can see that perhaps that was not the main drive of the conversation at that point.

What I have seen with my own eyes, and what the scriptures teach is that certain things separate people from God. It's definitely not limited to marijuana, or other drugs. I'm sure this will be completely unpopular (hey, what else is new) but getting high on a habitual basis is a sin, and sin separates people from God. And that's not the end of it... There's actually more to be said about this, but for now I'll leave it at that.

I respect your perceptions on this.
Not sure that being separated from God and becoming an atheist are to be considered one and the same, but in a loose way, I can agree that the use of psychoactive compounds CAN remove one from one's spirituality if used in the wrong way, insofar as such use can numb one to all aspects of one's life, spirituality included.

As for causing one to no longer believe, as opposed to just feeling out of touch with God, that's a different matter. Logic would imply that stopping the use of marijuana would then cause Ganja to reconnect with God, and yet that is not the case: he actually, in parallel and quite possibly with no connection to his marijuana use, decided not to believe in God anymore. It happens to a great many people who don't use psychoactive substances, so linking it with his pot use is probably just stemming from your desire to see non-Christians as being non-Christian for pathological reasons.

It should also be noted that if used in the right way, psychoactive substances can be a conduit to greater spiritual awareness. Many traditions around the world have used such substances to connect with the spirit world. I know those traditions are meaningless or inspired by Satan for people who hold your perspective, but the point needs to be made nonetheless. From an objective, non-denominational perspective, their sense of divinity is no less valid than your own.

M

[lily]

It doesn't separate you from God, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. If anything, depending on set and setting, marijuana can be a spiritual experience. Maybe not on the level of ayahuasca, which is truly a spiritual plant, but it's pretty good. Cannabis has played a role in spirituality for a very long time.

I wouldn't expect you to agree, but keep in mind, I'm speaking from a Christian perspective. You can claim all you want that there's nothing wrong with getting high, but that is your perspective as non-believer and someone who (seems to be) pro-drug. Well, at least not anti-drug.

Dang, I wish that Joey Normal was here right now, to talk to you.

Anyway, I was just about to go to bed, so I'm off.... I just wanted to quickly reply.

[lily]

Ah, ok, fair enough. I didn't understand why caffeine was being brought in if not to contrast the illegality of marijuana with a substance that is more addictive and yet legal. But I can see that perhaps that was not the main drive of the conversation at that point.



I respect your perceptions on this.
Not sure that being separated from God and becoming an atheist are to be considered one and the same, but in a loose way, I can agree that the use of psychoactive compounds CAN remove one from one's spirituality if used in the wrong way, insofar as such use can numb one to all aspects of one's life, spirituality included.

As for causing one to no longer believe, as opposed to just feeling out of touch with God, that's a different matter. Logic would imply that stopping the use of marijuana would then cause Ganja to reconnect with God, and yet that is not the case: he actually, in parallel and quite possibly with no connection to his marijuana use, decided not to believe in God anymore. It happens to a great many people who don't use psychoactive substances, so linking it with his pot use is probably just stemming from your desire to see non-Christians as being non-Christian for pathological reasons.

It should also be noted that if used in the right way, psychoactive substances can be a conduit to greater spiritual awareness. Many traditions around the world have used such substances to connect with the spirit world. I know those traditions are meaningless or inspired by Satan for people who hold your perspective, but the point needs to be made nonetheless. From an objective, non-denominational perspective, their sense of divinity is no less valid than your own.

M

You brought up something that opti was also alluding to, and it's an interesting topic that I would like to respond to, but I really do have to go right now. I was just about to go right before posting to opti. Btw, I'm sorry that I didn't get back to that 'what is evil' thread - it was kind of winding down anyway. I'll probably be back to this thread manana!

[Malcolm Wright]

I wouldn't expect you to agree, but keep in mind, I'm speaking from a Christian perspective. You can claim all you want that there's nothing wrong with getting high, but that is your perspective as non-believer and someone who (seems to be) pro-drug. Well, at least not anti-drug.

Dang, I wish that Joey Normal was here right now, to talk to you.

Anyway, I was just about to go to bed, so I'm off.... I just wanted to quickly reply.

Joey Normal! That's a blast from the past! From what I remember, he was an excellent debater, and just a generally decent guy.
I hope he's doing well, wherever he is. He was based in New Zealand and so was I, but we never got around to meeting up.

M

[Malcolm Wright]

You brought up something that opti was also alluding to, and it's an interesting topic that I would like to respond to, but I really do have to go right now. I was just about to go right before posting to opti. Btw, I'm sorry that I didn't get back to that 'what is evil' thread - it was kind of winding down anyway. I'll probably be back to this thread manana!

No worries - I'd forgotten about that other thread...
Sleep well!

M

[optimus]

I wouldn't expect you to agree, but keep in mind, I'm speaking from a Christian perspective. You can claim all you want that there's nothing wrong with getting high, but that is your perspective as non-believer and someone who (seems to be) pro-drug. Well, at least not anti-drug.

Dang, I wish that Joey Normal was here right now, to talk to you.

Anyway, I was just about to go to bed, so I'm off.... I just wanted to quickly reply.

And this is a debate that Joey Normal would lose.

Westerners have a very distorted perception of drugs. In other older cultures and primitive tribes, "drugs" are seen completely differently. They aren't abused like westerners abuse them, and they aren't seen as recreational. They're almost always seen as spiritual or healing. They look at naturally occurring drugs as "medicine" for the mind, spirit and body. They traditionally only use them during specific rituals with someone to guide them, and they've been used for thousands of years. I could go on and on about this subject.

By the way, it's very possible that a lot of folks in the bible got high or used some sort of hallucinogen. I personally believe that humans evolved in conjunction with hallucinogens. It's interesting how incredibly sensitive our brains are to even the smallest dose of certain substances.

[Malcolm Wright]

And this is a debate that Joey Normal would lose.

Westerners have a very distorted perception of drugs. In other older cultures and primitive tribes, "drugs" are seen completely differently. They aren't abused like westerners abuse them, and they aren't seen as recreational. They're almost always seen as spiritual or healing. They look at naturally occurring drugs as "medicine" for the mind, spirit and body. They traditionally only use them during specific rituals with someone to guide them, and they've been used for thousands of years. I could go on and on about this subject.

By the way, it's very possible that a lot of folks in the bible got high or used some sort of hallucinogen. I personally believe that humans evolved in conjunction with hallucinogens. It's interesting how incredibly sensitive our brains are to even the smallest dose of certain substances.

Right there with you on the co-evolution tip. I believe that too.
DMT for instance exists in nature, and is synthesized by the brain. I don't believe in coincidence: patterns match for a reason, even if we can't perceive that reason. For nature to hold a complex chemical compound outside us and also have our bodies make it is a beautiful meditation on how blurry the boundaries truly are between us and the life forms we share our home with.

M

[big steve]

B. Hussein Obama, a fraud with a phony BC!

[86Dùde]

Are you people high on something? This thread has taken an extreme tangent.

[Malcolm Wright]

Are you people high on something? This thread has taken an extreme tangent.

Holy cow - it sure has. Thankfully there's Big Steve to remind us succinctly of what it was all about. Unfortunately the actual subject is really boring to me - I mean what can be said beyond - yes - lets find out if the man was eligible or not?

M

[big steve]

If Obama was truly transparent, he would provide all the evidence needed to neutral partys. He will not, hence the strong suspicians of his being a fraud related to his BC, college records, SS etc.

[86Dùde]

Playing devil's advocate, how would you feel if someone proved to you that it, the BC, is a fake? I meant that for Mr. M.

[Malcolm Wright]

Playing devil's advocate, how would you feel if someone proved to you that it, the BC, is a fake? I meant that for Mr. M.

There would need to be a widely expanded investigation into exposing the whole machinery that allowed such a falsehood to be presented to the American people. Simple.

There would be criminal hearings brought against the President, because such an act could not realistically have been carried out without his knowledge.

But how would I feel?
I wouldn't feel much one way or the other. Certainly not shocked. Not all that upset: government perpetrate worse and more damaging falsehoods on us, and I'd save my emotions for that.

M

[Cyclone Ranger]

B. Hussein Obama, a fraud with a phony BC!

Birthers, frauds with a phony ideology!

[Cyclone Ranger]

If Obama was truly transparent, he would provide all the evidence needed to neutral partys. He will not, hence the strong suspicians of his being a fraud related to his BC, college records, SS etc.

lol, he already did that, you idiot!

[big steve]

lol, he already did that, you idiot!

Your biases and gullibility is exceeded by no one! I guess that makes you worse than an idiot. Hmmm

[GanjaFreebird]

Playing devil's advocate, how would you feel if someone proved to you that it, the BC, is a fake?

The sun would still shine and the skies would still be blue. Life would still go on, believe it or not, and Obama would STILL be the president simply because his mother was born here. Now, would I still support him? Sure, as long as he continues to be the kind of liberal that supports Israel and protects America from Muslim barbaric terrorists!

[big steve]

The sun would still shine and the skies would still be blue. Life would still go on, believe it or not, and Obama would STILL be the president simply because his mother was born here. Now, would I still support him? Sure, as long as he continues to be the kind of liberal that supports Israel and protects America from Muslim barbaric terrorists!

Don't you think Obama has been a little weak with supporting Israel and protecting us from Muslims?

By the way, the fact that Obama's mother was born here does not make him a natural-born if he was born in Kenya due to the residency/age requirement at that time.

[GanjaFreebird]

Don't you think Obama has been a little weak with supporting Israel and protecting us from Muslims?

A little weak on Iran, too much concentration on the "settlements" and too much credit for the "arab spring", yes, but still one of the most pro-Israel and anti-terrorist presidents that America ever had, and in some ways the most pro-Israel, as he increased Israel's security help more than anybody before him and he told the Palestinians to go fuck themselves at the UN, like no other President did before him. Just ask Guido, he thinks Obama is more dangerous to Muslim terrorists than anybody else, even Bush, because he managed to kill most of their leaders (including Bin Laden), destroy a few of their countries, while still getting away with it in the media because he is a nice liberal Black guy, rather than a mean White conservative. Me and Guido rarely agree, but he does have good points when it comes to this one, his feelings about it are wrong (as one should be HAPPY about it, while he's not), but the points are correct nevertheless, in a lot of ways.

By the way, the fact that Obama's mother was born here does not make him a natural-born if he was born in Kenya due to the residency/age requirement at that time.

Since that law was changed (and moreover, is now considered to be racist), it's absolutely not clear that it would apply to Obama in 2012, and if it ever came down to it, the judges would most likely ignore that, or else they would be accused of racism. Even if Obama was born in Kenya and one could prove that, that would still be almost impossible to do anything about it, because his mother was born here, and it's legally very tough to fight in favor of a Jim Crow law that expired in 1962.