Land of the free

[BooRadley]

The United States has the highest prison population rate in the world, 756 per 100,000 of the national population.

The 2009 federal prison population consisted of:

Drugs 50.7%, Public-order 35.0%, Violent 7.9%, Property 5.8%, Other .7%

In 2008, according to the Department of Justice, there were 7,308,200 persons in the US corrections system, of whom 4,270,917 were on probation, 828,169 were on parole, 785,556 were in jails, and 1,518,559 were in state and federal prisons. This means that the US alone is responsible for holding roughly 15% of all the prisoners in the world.

In other words, 1 in 42 Americans is under correctional supervision. This constitutes over 2% of the entire US population. That percentage jumps up drastically if we limit the comparison to working aged adult males, of which there are around 100 million. Over 5% of the adult male population is under some form of correctional supervision, alternatively stated, 1 in 20 adult males is under correctional supervision in the US.

Keep in mind that 86% of those men in federal prisons are there for victimless crimes. They have not stolen any property, damaged any property or harmed anyone directly by their actions. Of course, if you are reading this and live in the US, you are paying for all those people to subsist on a daily basis. Roughly 34% of all prisoners in the US are incarcerated for victimless crimes.

http://www.libertariannews.org/2011/...on-population/

The United States was the only Western democracy that executed prisoners last year, even as an increasing number of U.S. states are moving to abolish the death penalty, Amnesty International announced Monday.

America's 43 executions in 2011 ranked it fifth in the world in capital punishment, the rights group said in its annual review of worldwide death penalty trends. U.S. executions were down from 46 a year earlier. "If you look at the company we're in globally, it's not the company we want to be in: China, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq,"

http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...#ixzz1qKEJuDod


The war on drugs really needs to end. Honestly, it's stupid, authoritarian gibberish that only made sense in Nancy Reagans crazy head.

[Pho King]

Of that 51% in for drugs, how many are multiple offenders? How many are there for trafficking or manufacturing? How many have serious prior criminal histories (not the ones you imagine, Boo, but real ones consisting of felony convictions)? It is a statistically insignificant percentage of offenders that are incarcerated for simple possessory offenses.

[BooRadley]

Of that 51% in for drugs, how many are multiple offenders? How many are there for trafficking or manufacturing? How many have serious prior criminal histories (not the ones you imagine, Boo, but real ones consisting of felony convictions)? It is a statistically insignificant percentage of offenders that are incarcerated for simple possessory offenses.

Source?

[Pho King]

Source?

Im not going to provide a state-by-state breakdown of penalties for first-time drug possession (with no other aggravators). But AZ has the toughest drug possession laws on the books. Possession of a seed is a felony. And even in Maricopa county- the strictest of all counties- noone is incarcerated (outside of the county pen while waiting for their IA) for simple possessory offenses. Usually, a defendant will get multiple chances before a felony conviction is even sought.

DO you need me to go further in-depth about the shortcomings of the study you cited?

[Pho King]

find a single individual incarcerated for a simple possessory offense, with no attendant aggravating factors. Good luck.

[BooRadley]

Im not going to provide a state-by-state breakdown of penalties for first-time drug possession

Who said anything about first time? Do you always fight strawmen? Is it like a hobby for you?

Aside from the fact that you hate freedom and want a police state, why are you so proud to live in a country that locks up more of it's population than any other country on Earth? What makes you so happy about that?

[Pho King]

Who said anything about first time? Do you always fight strawmen? Is it like a hobby for you?

Aside from the fact that you hate freedom and want a police state, why are you so proud to live in a country that locks up more of it's population than any other country on Earth? What makes you so happy about that?

Wow. You are letting your feminine side get the best of you, Boo. I have expressed no opinion one way or the other regarding our drug laws. I have noted that the survey you have provided is very lacking. The fact is, that almost noone is locked up for drug offenses, that did not fuck up in a myriad of criminal ways. Often times, their plea to a drug charge is a plea to a lessor offense. But thats not included in the survey upon which you base your tantrum, is it?

But seriously, get a grip on yourself. I have met menopausal women with more control over their emotions than you.

[BooRadley]

almost noone is locked up for drug offenses

Drugs 50.7%,

So, not only do you hate freedom, but you hate facts, too? Why are you at war with reality? Did you lose the war on psychedelic drugs?

[DngrMse]

http://www.libertariannews.org/2011/...on-population/




http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...#ixzz1qKEJuDod


The war on drugs really needs to end. Honestly, it's stupid, authoritarian gibberish that only made sense in Nancy Reagans crazy head.

Once upon a time, the jury system in this country was designed to make it difficult to imprison people....it was better to let 1000 guilty men walk free than to imprison one innocent man. We've turned that principle upside down...thanks to vaguely worded laws, rewards to prosecutors for 'convictions', plea bargains, and politically motivated legislation that criminalizes thoughts during the commission of certain crimes. Each and every one of us commit, on average, each fucking day, three federal felonies. If they come after you for 'X', which you might be innocent of, they change their focus to any of the three felonies you do commit each day, and pursue convictions there. They usually win.

The problem is, too many of us cheer on prosecutions we 'like', or support, and vote for politicians that promise to criminalize the behaviors, and thoughts of people we would prefer to see in jail. People we just know are fucking guilty. And it all piles up. More and more people are sent to prison, (If Ted Stevens hadn't died in a plane crash, where would he be today?), and most often for crimes not related to the offenses they were charged with, or suspected of. Prosecutors are immune from civil lawsuits....something not granted them in the constitution....and the end result is not surprising. They frequently hide exculpatory evidence, witnesses, and alibis...and nothing is done to them, other than a rarely issued court admonishment to "not do that again".

We need to start punishing prosecutors that cross the line.

We need to inform seated juries that they don't have to convict because some law says they must. They can, by law, vote their conscience.

We need to put an end to the 'drug war'. It's nothing but a tool to expand governmental control over our lives.

We need to, as a country, realize the government does not represent our interests in criminal prosecutions.

We need to put an end to plea bargains, entirely. If the government has a case, they should bring it in front of a jury, and prove it to twelve people.

We need to revamp jury selection...it needs to be random. If you pass the basic "I'm not a crazy cat lady" tests, you go in the pool...and you can be randomly selected to sit on a jury. Neither the prosecution, or the defense should be able to challenge it. A Jury of your peers does not mean a Jury of those most likely to acquit, or convict, and it's time this rule be reaffirmed.

Lastly, Nancy Reagan is hardly the one responsible for the drug war. It started long before her tenure as FLOTUS, and has continued unabated, usually with the support of you voting idiots, from administration, to administration...congress, to congress, since before I was born.

[BooRadley]

We need to put an end to plea bargains, entirely. If the government has a case, they should bring it in front of a jury, and prove it to twelve people.

I read recently that if everyone charged with a crime were to demand a jury trial, the justice system would instantly break down. They just don't have the resources for it. They use threats of extreme maximums for hopped up charges to extort the accused into surrendering their right to a jury trial. It's the only way they can run the kind of turnaround they do.

If everyone were to refuse to plea, they'd basically have to either quadruple the court system (and probably prison system), or start dropping charges for petty bullshit. This is related: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/11/op...ce-system.html

Lastly, Nancy Reagan is hardly the one responsible for the drug war.

I know. She's the one who pushed the "Just say no" thing and made a popular push to "end drugs". I think we just needed something new to be afraid of after the Soviet Union. In the 70's we were supposed to be afraid of Commies. In the 80's we were supposed to be afraid of drug dealers. The 90's we were supposed to be afraid of gang members. 00's we were supposed to be afraid of terrorists. I'm not sure what we're supposed to be afraid of now, but whatever it is, the only solution, as always, will be to give the government more power.

[jwreck]

We're supposed to be afraid of racists now.

[BooRadley]

We're supposed to be afraid of racists now.

I think that's just this week. To be honest, I think we're supposed to be afraid of each other.

[Pho King]

So, not only do you hate freedom, but you hate facts, too? Why are you at war with reality? Did you lose the war on psychedelic drugs?

Interesting that, yet again, you provide a selection of words with no context to make it seeem like what you want to believe was written, is what was written. You apparently think that is a sollid foundation upon which to base your hysterical conclusions. The rest of the world sees such a move as lacking integrity and honesty. But if that is the height of your capabilities, so be it.

Does your study take into account the plea process? Because that 51% are overwhelmingly people that have shown themselves to be incapable of living freely in society. The drug issues are part and parcel of additional serious felonious conduct.

You are so dramatic-

[BooRadley]

Because that 51% are overwhelmingly people that have shown themselves to be incapable of living freely in society.

Like I said, you hate freedom.

Why is it that only in America are so many people incapable of living freely in society? What is it that you think is so bad about Americans? Why are so many Canadians and Europeans, and even Chinese and Iranrians, capable of living without the government directly supervising their lives? Are they just better people?

Why do you hate Americans, as well?

[Pho King]

Like I said, you hate freedom.

Why is it that only in America are so many people incapable of living freely in society? What is it that you think is so bad about Americans? Why are so many Canadians and Europeans, and even Chinese and Iranrians, capable of living without the government directly supervising their lives? Are they just better people?

Why do you hate Americans, as well?

Oh the drama. And the (as usual) conclusions totally unsupported by the evidence in front of you. Aside from the hysteria, another issue that you possess is the inability to distinguish the factual parts of an article from the editorial aspects. WHich helps explain your flair for the dramatic and the hysterical.

[BooRadley]

Oh the drama. And the (as usual) conclusions totally unsupported by the evidence in front of you. Aside from the hysteria, another issue that you possess is the inability to distinguish the factual parts of an article from the editorial aspects. WHich helps explain your flair for the dramatic and the hysterical.

Are you ever going to get around to making a point, or are you just going to keep trolling? You have a very bad habit of trolling up every thread you go into with discussions of the posters, rather than the actual topics. In fact, that seems to be the entire point to your presence here. You've been spamming up nearly every thread I post in with your assumptions about me, personally, since the day you showed up. Do you have any objective other than that, or is your perverse fascination with me the only thing you have to offer?

[Pho King]

Are you ever going to get around to making a point, or are you just going to keep trolling? You have a very bad habit of trolling up every thread you go into with discussions of the posters, rather than the actual topics. In fact, that seems to be the entire point to your presence here. You've been spamming up nearly every thread I post in with your assumptions about me, personally, since the day you showed up. Do you have any objective other than that, or is your perverse fascination with me the only thing you have to offer?

I made the point, Boo, which you then twisted into an attack on me. IE- you did the very thing you are accusing me of. Indeed, look no later than post 6 to determine just when this thread was made personal, and by whom.

The point is simple. The statistic regarding the number of people in prison for drug offenses offers nothing by way of explaining the reasons for the incarceration. It is a useless statistic in your belief that the war on drugs must end. Such a contention should be accompanied by some deeper understanding of the issues surrounding that 51%. Instead, when the misleading nature of the article you cited in support of your claim, you run off on a tangent about how I hate freedom, hate America, hate Americans, blah blah blah.

[Zordar]

The war on drugs is dumb.

Legalized pot + decriminalization of possession and use of other drugs + shooting any meth head who tries to steal my bike = free country.

Also, bring back public executions.

[BooRadley]

I made the point, Boo

Yeah, you stated an assumption. I asked if you have any data to back that assumption up, and you said that was too hard, so you weren't going to do it.

you run off on a tangent about how I hate freedom, hate America, hate Americans, blah blah blah.

Because that's as much discussion as you're worth. You're entire point in being here is to throw out retarded barbs about "the progs". So that's pretty much all you're value is in a discussion.

Now, if you'd like to back up your assertion that 51% of the prison population being incarcerated in connection to drug offences is no evidence that the "war on drugs" should end, I'd be happy to hear it. But you won't want to do that. That would require the tiniest amount of interest in something other than trolling, and you clearly don't have that.

The extreme majority of our prison population is in jail for victimless crimes, or crimes directly associated with the black market for drugs. A market that is created by our drug laws. We have the highest percentage of our population incarcerated in the world. Not just the free world, but even Cuba, China, and Pakistan. The majority of them are in prison specifically because of the drug laws we have in place.

I say that this is evidence that we have fucked up law. You say some stupid shit about "my feminine side" and menopause (WTF?), which is pretty much SOP for you. Which, of course, is why making stupid assumptions about you is the only discussion you've earned, since that's pretty much all you've offered anyone else.

[Pho King]

Yeah, you stated an assumption. I asked if you have any data to back that assumption up, and you said that was too hard, so you weren't going to do it.



Because that's as much discussion as you're worth. You're entire point in being here is to throw out retarded barbs about "the progs". So that's pretty much all you're value is in a discussion.

Now, if you'd like to back up your assertion that 51% of the prison population being incarcerated in connection to drug offences is no evidence that the "war on drugs" should end, I'd be happy to hear it. But you won't want to do that. That would require the tiniest amount of interest in something other than trolling, and you clearly don't have that.

The extreme majority of our prison population is in jail for victimless crimes, or crimes directly associated with the black market for drugs. A market that is created by our drug laws. We have the highest percentage of our population incarcerated in the world. Not just the free world, but even Cuba, China, and Pakistan. The majority of them are in prison specifically because of the drug laws we have in place.

I say that this is evidence that we have fucked up law. You say some stupid shit about "my feminine side" and menopause (WTF?), which is pretty much SOP for you. Which, of course, is why making stupid assumptions about you is the only discussion you've earned, since that's pretty much all you've offered anyone else.

Oh dear. WHere to start with this hot mess?

I made a very clear point to you Boo. And that is that, without considerable further explanation of the data- the conclusion that you base on that data is really uninformed. A point I will return to in a moment. Lets start with your declaration that (personal insults) are all the discussion I am worth. I don't even know how to explain the absurdity of first claiming that I made this thread personal, and then admitting that you did it because thats "all the discussion I am worth". The absurdity of that is doubled when one considers your statement that my "entire point of being here is to throw out retarded barbs about progs". That is a claim that is disproven with even a cursory reading of this thread. What you have now done is accused me of doing what you are very obviously guilty of on this thread, and then you use a factually incorrect statement to back up your original and erroneous proposition.

Now to the meat of the issue. One does not need further data to understand why the 51% number is so irrelevant. One simply needs to have a desire to understand the issues, instead of being fed that understanding. And this is a point I have made before, on this very thread. The 51% number which you rely on so heavily does nothing to explain how those individuals ended up incarcerated. It says nothing of attendant and prior criminal behavior. Makes no mention of aggravating circumstances, and prior criminal histories- the real ones, Boo, that result in convictions. Of course, the skewed nature of that figure- and the conclusions you reach based on it- is even more apparent if you filter that data through the plea process. The simple reality is that the prison population, by and large, consists of individuals that have a long history of personal and social destruction behind them. They are not mere victims of some draconian drug law. The enforcement of our drug laws almost always permits individuals multiple chances to avoid prison. I see similarly wild conclusions being drawn by individuals that believe some huge percentage of bankruptcies are caused by medical debt. A claim that needs no statitics to disprove, just some very simple inquiry into the nature of the stats.

Which brings me to your belief that we have a higher percentage of our population incarcerated than China, Pakistan or Cuba. You know that......how, exactly? Someone told you? Ok, fine. But perhaps you should question that authority, and consider how any statistics that support such a contention might be gathered, and is such a method of gathering data reliable.

If you made solid arguments, Boo, you would not get so defensive when the massive holes, and possible outright deception, in your arguments is exposed. Its not a personal thing, although I understand why you take it so.