Did Anything in The Old Testament Exist

[Šñøü†ê®]

But the fact the international community legally recognized Israeli sovereignty does.

"International community?" You mean the UN?

That's highly debatable, given the remarkable cultural and even genetic continuity of the Jewish community over the last two thousand years.

^Evidence?

[GanjaFreebird]

"International community?" You mean the UN?

I mean, nobody else gives a shit about the Palestinians, that's for damn sure.

^Evidence?

Your bar-mitzvah, circumcision, and a big Jewish nose.

[Šñøü†ê®]

DID the mythological 12 tribes of Israel have BArmitzfas? Or is that a Yiddish thing you Russians came up with at some point! I cannot find evidence of BArmitzfas in the Bible.

[Archaix]

The Jews of "the past" are my grandfathers and grandmothers, asshole, and yes, what belonged to them, belongs to me, if you have a problem with that, you can discuss it with the IDF.

The Jews of “the past” goes beyond your grandparents. And no, you don't physically own your ancestor's things, especially when there's about fifteen hundred years of time in between you and them.

The problem is that between 1870 and 1947 millions of Arabs moved to Israel from Jordan, Egypt and other countries, after the Zionists turned that shithole into something nice, and they claimed to be "Palestinians" but they aren't AT ALL, and neither are their children, just sayin'.

It was a 'shithole' because of centuries of colonisation and under-investment. There were Palestinians who sold land to Jews, and that (to me) is fine -but hundreds of thousands were driven out because of the insane belief that we are responsible for our ancestors and need to relive the 7th century.

Because those people are originally from Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Iraq, including Yassir Arafat who was born in Egypt. They didn't give a shit about Israel until the Zionists turned it into a civilization and they tried to take it away from us only after we helped them and inspired most of them to move there, so fuck them, that land didn't belong to most of them anyways, and we were the ones who built the country that it is today. They have the choice of either get over themselves and make a better future for their kids as the citizens of Arab countries or the west, or they can stay in those stinking refugees camps forever, I don't give a shit, this is not my problem at all.

Exactly the same arguments used against the Native Americans of the USA and aborigines of Australia, and exactly as arrogant and false. It should be your problem. You should give a shit. There's either something wrong with you or you're deeply in denial if you see no wrong in Zionism.

No, I support Germany's right to exist how ever they want to exist, but I wouldn't support any country attacking others, especially because of bigoted reasons.

No, you support Greater Germany because classically Germania covered all of Central and a great deal of Eastern Europe. The Slavish settlement of the latter is an imposition and attack on the historical Germanic peoples, (in your mind) rightfully addressed by the Third Reich. Prove to me how that is dissimilar to Israel.

But the fact the international community legally recognized Israeli sovereignty does.

Doesn't make it right.

That's highly debatable, given the remarkable cultural and even genetic continuity of the Jewish community over the last two thousand years.

Rubbish.

[GanjaFreebird]

DID the 12 tribes of Israel have BArmitzfas?

Probably not in the old days, it became a Jewish tradition about 2,000 years ago I think.

Or is that a Yiddish thing you Russians came up with at some point!

Russians don't speak Yiddish and most of them are Orthodox Christians, so they don't celebrate bar-mitzvah.

And to answer your question, ALL Jewish people celebrate that, including Russian Jews, Ethiopean Jews, Sephardic Jews, and yes, even Dutch Jews such as your family.

I cannot find evidence of BArmitzfas in the Bible.

Your point?

[GanjaFreebird]

The Jews of “the past” goes beyond your grandparents. And no, you don't physically own your ancestor's things, especially when there's about fifteen hundred years of time in between you and them.

1. Why not?

2. If that's the case, then you might want to tell the Palestinian "refugees" to get over it, even the few who really do have families that lived there before the Zionists came. If your logic applies to the Jews, it should apply to others too.

It was a 'shithole' because of centuries of colonisation and under-investment.

And that still didn't prevent the Jewish immigrants from building that beautiful country with their own hands. You're right, nobody really did give a fuck about this land until WE turned it into something good, but why should anybody take advantage of OUR hard work?

There were Palestinians who sold land to Jews, and that (to me) is fine -but hundreds of thousands were driven out because of the insane belief that we are responsible for our ancestors and need to relive the 7th century.

No, hundreds of thousands were advised by the Arab countries to leave when they realized they couldn't destroy Israel, and the few thousands who WERE driven out by Israel...well, again, that happened because the Arabs attacked us from all sides when they couldn't accept the international law and UN's resolutions. It's not MY problem.

Exactly the same arguments used against the Native Americans of the USA and aborigines of Australia, and exactly as arrogant and false.

If Native Americans moved to USA from Mexico or Canada AFTER the Europeans built a civilization there, there would be an argument, but they didn't, they were already there before Whites came there. Same with Australia.

Now, in Israel/Palestine, there were ALWAYS Jews living there, and the entire population was less than 400,000 (including most of today's Jordan) before the Zionist immigrants came and did something with that land. And they attacked us even after UN gave them most of that land, just because they can't stand the ideal of the Jewish people having ANY kind of a country there, not even a square inch. WTF.

It should be your problem. You should give a shit.

I care about my brothers and sisters, not my enemies, who I will continue to hate for as long as they chose to behave this way. When they agree to a REAL two peace solution: a Jewish state and a Palestinian state, that's when I might change my mind about them.

There's either something wrong with you or you're deeply in denial if you see no wrong in Zionism.

Not only there's nothing wrong with Zionism, but to me as a Jew, there's almost nothing as important as the existence of Israel as a Jewish state because it's an essential part of Jewish self-determination, and that's something that I will NEVER ever compromise on, and most Israelis will NEVER compromise on!

No, you support Greater Germany because classically Germania covered all of Central and a great deal of Eastern Europe. The Slavish settlement of the latter is an imposition and attack on the historical Germanic peoples, (in your mind) rightfully addressed by the Third Reich. Prove to me how that is dissimilar to Israel.

Because Israel isn't trying to own the entire biblical Israel (which includes almost all of Jordan, half of Lebanon and Syria, some Iraq, and most of Egypt). We are even willing to compromise on the entire Judeah and Shomron, which includes cities such as Hebron that mean so much to us. I have family that lived in Hebron for hundreds if not thousands of years, myself.

The most you guys will ever get out of us is what Barak offered in 2000, because if WE can't have our country, then neither will anybody else.

Doesn't make it right.

Would you rather be "right" and get the world involved in a nuclear war or would you accept Israel's existence and take what you can get? You will NOT convince the Israelis to accept your opinions, they've already tried it for 2,000 years, it doesn't work for us. We will NOT give our entire country to the Arabs, that won't be happening.

[Cyclone Ranger]

"International community?" You mean the UN?

The United Nations is the organized international community

^Evidence?

e.g., the following:

http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/346genetics.html

[Cyclone Ranger]

It was a 'shithole' because of centuries of colonisation and under-investment. There were Palestinians who sold land to Jews, and that (to me) is fine -but hundreds of thousands were driven out because of the insane belief that we are responsible for our ancestors and need to relive the 7th century.

In other words, you don't know enough about the history of Israel to participate in this conversation.

Doesn't make it right.

Bullshit, it doesn't. The Jews had as much right to self-determination in the area as the Palestinians.

Rubbish.

Fact.

[GanjaFreebird]

CR is right!!

[Cyclone Ranger]

DID the mythological 12 tribes of Israel have BArmitzfas? Or is that a Yiddish thing you Russians came up with at some point! I cannot find evidence of BArmitzfas in the Bible.

Of course, it's pretty likely there were not literally twelve tribes. The number twelve was probably chosen for symbolic reasons.

The tradition of bar mitzvah belongs to the modern era of congregational Judaism that began with the Pharisees, and may only date back to the middle ages. As far as we know, it wasn't practiced while the Temple of Jerusalem stood.

[Truth Teller]

Your bar-mitzvah, circumcision, and a big Jewish nose.

Exactly the same arguments used against the Native Americans of the USA and aborigines of Australia, and exactly as arrogant and false.

Of course, Native Americans were in Mexico first ,yet people like you never mention that fact.

You also don't mention that around '47/'48 the UN proposed two states,one Arab(Palestinian) ,one Jewish ,and the Jews agreed to it,but it was the Palestinians who said "No" ,it's obvous the reason they said "No" was because they hoped their Arab neighbors would push Israel in the sea, and then they would have it all for themselfs.

Also,moments after Israel became a state, Goldia Meir went on the radio said said to Israel's Arab neighbors that Israel reached out to them in peace.

Again,the Arabs refused Israel's olive branch.

CR is right!!

He usually is.

[Cyclone Ranger]

Russians don't speak Yiddish and most of them are Orthodox Christians, so they don't celebrate bar-mitzvah.

Jews in the Pale of Settlement spoke Yiddish, not Russian. Some Russians who did business with Jewish shtetls did learn some Yiddish.

[Archaix]

In other words, you don't know enough about the history of Israel to participate in this conversation.

I know enough to know that it was formal Israeli policy in the late 40s to target civilian Palestinian settlements for attack, that Israelis undertook terrorist action themselves against British rule in order to get what they want, and that Israeli Intelligence considered their actions to be the major cause of Palestinian exodus. Maybe instead of being a condescending fuckwit and employing the usual programme of arrogance, Israeli exceptionalism and deflection you could try and do what no DA zionist has so far managed to do: address the points sensibly.

Bullshit, it doesn't. The Jews had as much right to self-determination in the area as the Palestinians.

No, they didn't. I've not seen any evidence from your side that they do, outside of crackpot claims about the 7th century and the Roman occupation.

Fact.

Allowing for a moment that genetic continuation is relevant (it's not, and its use borders on racism anyway), prove that the Jews of the present are culturally the same as the Jews of over 2000 years ago -and that provides in itself a good argument for why they have a strong claim to a land where in 1800 Jews made up less than 3% of the people.

1. Why not?

2. If that's the case, then you might want to tell the Palestinian "refugees" to get over it, even the few who really do have families that lived there before the Zionists came. If your logic applies to the Jews, it should apply to others too.

Because property rights cannot be reduced to 'our people held this land first', and we need to prioritise the living over the dead anyway. Take your argument to it's logical conclusion and Africans deserve to inherit the world, because all humans came from Africa. And yes, I have argued on here in the past that a great many Palestinians who have never lived in Israel have a weaker claim than their grandparents who were shoved off in the first place. Nonetheless, many of these people are in worse positions from birth because of 1948 -and you don't give a shit.

And that still didn't prevent the Jewish immigrants from building that beautiful country with their own hands. You're right, nobody really did give a fuck about this land until WE turned it into something good, but why should anybody take advantage of OUR hard work?

Israel got a lot of help from the West as bulwark against the Russians and the Middle East, as well as help from Jews worldwide. The Palestinians had first the Turks and then the British, both of whom thought as much about Palestinians as you do.

the few thousands who WERE driven out by Israel...well, again, that happened because the Arabs attacked us from all sides when they couldn't accept the international law and UN's resolutions

Wrong. Israelis drove out civilians by the hundred thousand, as well as aggressors.

If Native Americans moved to USA from Mexico or Canada AFTER the Europeans built a civilization there, there would be an argument, but they didn't, they were already there before Whites came there. Same with Australia.

They're relatively the same. Native Americans came before European Americans. The aborigines came before European Australians. Palestinians came before Zionist immigrants. The argument used to justify the subjugation of the former by the latter: we conquered, therefore we were right. What happens to them now is none of my concern.

Because Israel isn't trying to own the entire biblical Israel (which includes almost all of Jordan, half of Lebanon and Syria, some Iraq, and most of Egypt). We are even willing to compromise on the entire Judeah and Shomron, which includes cities such as Hebron that mean so much to us. I have family that lived in Hebron for hundreds if not thousands of years, myself.

Oh, so it is “yours” but you're giving away some for the time being? How generous.

Of course, Native Americans were in Mexico first ,yet people like you never mention that fact.

You also don't mention that around '47/'48 the UN proposed two states,one Arab(Palestinian) ,one Jewish ,and the Jews agreed to it,but it was the Palestinians who said "No" ,it's obvous the reason they said "No" was because they hoped their Arab neighbors would push Israel in the sea, and then they would have it all for themselfs.

Also,moments after Israel became a state, Goldia Meir went on the radio said said to Israel's Arab neighbors that Israel reached out to them in peace.

Again,the Arabs refused Israel's olive branch.

That's because most of them wanted what was promised during the First World War -a Palestinian state where Palestinians lived, not a Jewish state full of immigrants (and a sense of racial superiority no less) taking the best land. Anyway, if there's one thing that will help fuel tension and cultural contradistinction it's a two-state solution. Palestine needs one state with Jews and Palestinians working together in it, not some racist, arbitrary line in the ground.

And go ahead and call it a 'socialist' state too.

[Cyclone Ranger]

I know enough to know that it was formal Israeli policy in the late 40s to target civilian Palestinian settlements for attack

Evidence?!

that Israelis undertook terrorist action themselves against British rule in order to get what they want

For one, there were no Israelis during British rule. Israel didn't exist yet.

Some stateless Jewish refugees like the Irgun took terroristic actions against the British overseers....but the British soldiers were not civilians, the Irgun did not have any official government sanction, and the Irgun's objectives were to open up immigration for Holocaust victims after the release of the White Paper.

Israeli Intelligence considered their actions to be the major cause of Palestinian exodus.

Debatable. There was no Israeli intelligence network during the War of Independence, and the only historian to claim such an item existed in the IDF's archives is the 'New Historian' Benny Morris.

Most historians - including Morris himself - state that the Palestinian Exodus was simply caused by their desire to flee an active war zone, the direct urging of the Arab League itself, and their belief that Jordan would make short work of the apparently outgunned new Israeli state.

Maybe instead of being a condescending fuckwit and employing the usual programme of arrogance, Israeli exceptionalism and deflection you could try and do what no DA zionist has so far managed to do: address the points sensibly.

Given the numerous historical errors you made in just the above paragraph, I have every right to condescend to you.

No, they didn't.

I've not seen any evidence from your side that they do, outside of crackpot claims about the 7th century and the Roman occupation.

For one, your claim that self-determination is based on some concept of "historical ethnic ownership" is false. Palestine was an unincorporated territory in the Ottoman Empire prior to the UN Mandate, not a sovereign "Palestinian" nation.

The Jews created their own de facto homeland in Palestine after the Ottomans invited them to emigrate their, which the British recognized with the Balfour Declaration and the UN with UNGA 181. The Arabs didn't have a right to ethnic rule over all of Palestine just because they had a numerical majority, crushing minority rights.

Next, the bit about the Roman occupation and the existence of a historical Jewish homeland in Palestine is not "crackpot," but mainstream history based on both the historical record and

Allowing for a moment that genetic continuation is relevant (it's not, and its use borders on racism anyway),

Bullshit. The Jews of today are the direct descendants of the ancient Jews, as the population genetics studies prove. The idea that has something to do with "racism" is idiotic. Jews are not a biological race.

prove that the Jews of the present are culturally the same as the Jews of over 2000 years ago -and that provides in itself a good argument for why they have a strong claim to a land where in 1800 Jews made up less than 3% of the people.

One, the Jewish religion is pretty much the same today as it was in the Babylonian Captivity, based on the Torah and prophets.

Two, the concept of "cultural similarity" is not well-defined, as there is no direct litmus.

Three, international law does not respect any such concept as a defining characteristic of sovereignty.

Four, the Jewish population in 1800 - almost a hundred years before the First Aliyah - isn't relevant to anything.

Five, at the end of the day, Palestine was a U.N. mandate, and the UN chose to partition the land and offer the Israelis a sovereign homeland, whether you like it or not.

Because property rights cannot be reduced to 'our people held this land first',

You are conflating two separate concepts:

1. Sovereignty: the right to make laws within a specific territory.

2. Ownership of property.

[Cyclone Ranger]

That's because most of them wanted what was promised during the First World War -a Palestinian state where Palestinians lived, not a Jewish state full of immigrants (and a sense of racial superiority no less) taking the best

One, there is no evidence the Palestinians were promised a state during the First World War.

According to their spokespeople during the Crane King Commission, they felt they were part of Syria anyhow.

Two, there is also no evidence Arabs in Palestine considered themselves a special national group called "Palestinians" during the First World War.

Three, by WWI, the Jews had already created a de facto homeland for themselves, including draining off malarial swamps, irrigating the land, planing trees and crops, etc.

Four, the idea that Jews in Palestine believed they were "racially superior" to their brothers in race, the Arabs, is a ridiculous bunch of malarkey. I'd love to see you try to prove it with documentary evidence.

Five, even prominent anti-Zionists like Noam Chomsky gave up on advocating for a "one-state solution" long ago. It would simply be a catalyst for a bloody civil war like the ones in Lebanon, Sudan, and Yugoslavia

Six, it's inane to suggest the Jews took the best land. 60% of the Israeli partition was empty desert land in the Negev, and the rest was only usable because the early Zionists reclaimed it via irrigation.

You seem to enjoy making up your own facts.

[Šñøü†ê®]

Seven, is there is basically no evidence of the ancient 12 tribes of Israel in the region known as Palestine before the zionist invasion, why do you clowns insist you are one of the tribes?

[Cyclone Ranger]

There is certainly evidence of the ancient Jews there, although there probably weren't literally twelve tribes.

[Šñøü†ê®]

Kamandi, there is no evidence of ancient Isreal. But I am troubled you deny the 10 tribes who were taken away before ANY MENTION of the term you use to describe the ancient Israelites in Scipture. That is understandable since Israelites were AT WAR with Jews according to the Old Testament! What a belligerent bunch of fags!

[SivVulk]

has anyone mentioned the various claims regarding "Noah's Ark"? for instance the most recent one being in Turkey?

The team claims to have found in 2007 and 2008 seven large wooden compartments buried at 13,000 feet (4,000 meters) above sea level, near the peak of Mount Ararat. They returned to the site with a film crew in October 2009.

Many Christians believe the mountain in Turkey is the final resting place of Noah's ark

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...igion-culture/

Utter codswallop if you ask me

[Cyclone Ranger]

I'm not Kamandi.