Did Anything in The Old Testament Exist

[Archaix]

TransJordan stopped being part of the Palestine Mandate in 1921. Moreover, 350,000 people is pretty close to the number of Palestinians who fled Israel in 1948, so it's hardly insignificant.

How does any of that strengthen your argument?

Note that the only ethnic state you've ever had a problem with is Israel. As far as you're concerned, the rest of them are fine as is.

Evidence?

[GanjaFreebird]

Glad you asked.

Jews and Judaism have absolutely no exclusive right to that region

Nobody said they did, Israel has an almost 20% minorities, including people who married members of my family, and that's completely fine.

However, nobody has the "right" to ANY region, citizenship is a privilege that is given to individuals based upon the law and the desire of the majority of the region.
If most Israelis don't want to give too many citizenship to non-Jews or ANYBODY, it's their right, just like Japan doesn't often give citizenship to people who aren't ethnically Japanese.

it being an origin-point of that ethnicity is not the same as it being a 'homeland'

It's irrelevant what you consider as "homeland", since the Jews originally came from Israel, it's their right to consider it their homeland. Nothing you can change about it, anymore than you can change the views of the Muslims that Mecca is a holy place to them.

Palestinians have, if anything, a stronger claim to the land

No they don't, even according to your argument! The Jews lived there as a majority for 65 years, while the Palestinians who left and got kicked out are pretty much all dead! Therefore, people who weren't even born in Israel or ever been to Israel don't have as much right to it as Israeli Jews who live there for generations, even according to YOUR OWN argument!! The Palestinians ain't getting Israel back either way EVER, so it's irrelevant anyways.

- Jews are a heterogeneous 'people', worldwide and with a fluid culture -not a homogeneous, Israel-bound and static culture

The culture of Jews ANYWHERE around the world is based on Judaism and Israel, that's the one thing in common that ALL of us Hebrews have. If it wasn't for Judaism and Israel, we would be only connected by ethnicity, but we DO have our own culture, so stop being so ignorant and arrogant.

Israel has committed injustice in the past

So has everybody, especially Europe and America, so what?

through attacking and expelling innocent Palestinians in 1948
- through the subsequent appropriation of their land, and
- by using terrorism to end the British mandate

As an Israeli Jew, historically I'm glad that all of the above happened because if it wasn't for Israel, the Jewish state, my family would've been forced to stay in Ukraine even longer than we were, and Israel saved us, so to me, the means justify the ends. Either way, that's irrelevant because it happened 65 years ago, the British are no longer butthurt, and it's time for the Arabs to start doing the same, after all, we all lose sometimes.

Israel has continued injustice toward Palestinians since 1948
- through denying the Palestinian right of return

Israel will NEVER EVER allow their "right to return" because most Israelis would be STRONGLY against that and they will fight to death before they will allow Israel to become an Arab state. I'd rather die than have a citizenship in an Arab Muslim country. So would most of us. Any questions?

through illegal settlement creation

I oppose settlements, not on principle (as that land is holy to my religion, and you BETTER respect that just like you respect the Muslim claims to it), but because it makes it hard to create a 2 state solution, and I'd rather do the cancer surgery and cut Israel in half than risk Israel ever becoming an Arab Muslim state, God forbid.

Israel is wrong in being a 'Jewish state'

Yeah, well, would you rather be "right", start shit with us and get a nuclear war in response, or would you rather accept the desires of the Israeli majority and let it be? Remember, we will NEVER give up on the Jewish state, not in our lifetimes, at least. Remember, Israel has nukes and they are reserved for people like you who question our right to exist, so do me a favor, don't even question it. Start shit with somebody else if you're bored, you REALLY don't want to fuck with us, because we WILL destroy anything and everything that gets in the way of our self-determination. You guys can't finish what Hitler couldn't, especially after we have a state, great military and nukes, so just let it be, compromise and agree to disagree.

- because modern countries should not seek to be ethnically 'pure'
- because modern countries should be neutral as regards religion

Israel is neither religious nor ethnically pure, however, Israelis have the right to their self-determination, whatever their majority wants, and if they want a religious Jewish state (rather than the secular liberal country that it is today) it would still be none of your fuckin' business, believe it or not.

[Cyclone Ranger]

The fact that the Jews were quite a bit more than 20% of the population in 1992 strengthens my argument.

And, the fact that the only ethnic state you ever bitch about is Israel kind of makes it obvious.

[GanjaFreebird]

CR, you are an Israeli war hero yourself, so you must understand that what Archaix is really trying to say is that it sucks being a loser, and the thing about Israel is that it always wins, which is why we are hated by our enemies...our feet smells like their shit from kicking their ass so hard.

To quote somebody who according to Ahmadinejad "didn't ever exist" (as Freddy was Persian by ethnicity and let's just say, his lifestyle is punished by death in the countries that hate Israel)..."WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS"!!

[Cyclone Ranger]

I probably was not a hero per se, but at least I was on the winning side.

[Archaix]

Ganja: I'm not one of those "guys" who want to "finish what Hitler couldn't". That's a cheap, ridiculous and insulting thing to suggest.

The fact that the Jews were quite a bit more than 20% of the population in 1992 strengthens my argument.

You're evading the argument, which further suggests you've lost it. And no, it doesn't: your argument was that Zionists were somehow numerically equal to Palestinians (not even nearly true, even after Palestine was divided into two), and that they had a strong ancestral claim (they didn't, most were very recent immigrants).

So now your argument is apparently that what's past is past and Palestinians now have a weaker claim. Notwithstanding that many of those people are alive, Israel's actions have put their direct descendents in a much worse position from birth. In addition, their claim for land in Israel is no less valid than Zionist Jews, and so you either have right of return for them too, or no one has the right of return. Or be a hypocrite.

the fact that the only ethnic state you ever bitch about is Israel kind of makes it obvious.

That's not evidence, just an assumption you've made. What ethnic-cleansing strategies have I advocated, ever?

Oh, and you neglected to demonstrate how anything I've said is anti-semitic, like, a number of times. How come?

[Šñøü†ê®]

Just checking back to confirm the Zionists are satanically clueless about the Old Testament and that they still satanically hate the New Testament.

Israel is neither religious nor ethnically pure, however, Israelis have the right to their self-determination, whatever their majority wants, and if they want a religious Jewish state (rather than the secular liberal country that it is today) it would still be none of your fuckin' business, believe it or not.

What about that gay. piece of shit rabbi advisor to the zionist regime's politcal leaders who refers to normal human beings as "goyem" and the "goyem" are around simply to serve the zionists? Like the US military? And it is the world's fuckin' business when the world is getting royally screwed by the lobby groups necessary to maintain the insanity that is the Zionist Regime. Just sayin'.

[Cyclone Ranger]

I never said the Jews were numerically equal to the Palestinians. I said that, since Transjordan was severed from the Palestine Mandate, they were more than 20% of the population - probably close to 40%

Besides , Arabs and Muslims don't have an absolute right to an Islamic or Palestinian state over the entire region, even if they were the majority.

[GanjaFreebird]

I probably was not a hero per se, but at least I was on the winning side.

Every person that fought for Israel is a hero as far as I'm concerned!!

[Archaix]

I never said the Jews were numerically equal to the Palestinians. I said that, since Transjordan was severed from the Palestine Mandate, they were more than 20% of the population - probably close to 40%

You have given no evidence for that upper figure, that would still be a minority, and numerical bearing has no relevance anyway (particularly since they were recent immigrants).

Besides , Arabs and Muslims don't have an absolute right to an Islamic or Palestinian state over the entire region, even if they were the majority.

They don't and I never advocated that they should.

[Šñøü†ê®]

I am troubled that the zionists DO NOT even refer to the OLD TESTAMENT to explain their point of view. The Bible is NOT about butthurt Ukrainians.

[Cyclone Ranger]

The early Zionists were atheistic socialists who didn't consider the Bible proof of anything. Their motivations were political.

[Cyclone Ranger]

You have given no evidence for that upper figure, that would still be a minority, and numerical bearing has no relevance anyway (particularly since they were recent immigrants).

I said "probably." And, why would it matter how recently they left the Diaspora, and came to the Ottoman Empire? They had still developed the land more in a few years than the Palestinians did in a thousand.

They don't and I never advocated that they should.

That appears to be exactly what you are advocating, at least from the standpoint of 1948.

[Archaix]

I said "probably." And, why would it matter how recently they left the Diaspora, and came to the Ottoman Empire? They had still developed the land more in a few years than the Palestinians did in a thousand.

You said 'probably' without a shred of evidence, and continue to provide none. And yes, well-funded Zionists managed to develop the land, and maintain a steady trickle of immigrants which would have kept labour costs down. Of course, those lazy Arabs lived there a thousand years without doing anything -if you don't count chronic poverty, underinvestment and Turkish imperialism as a handicap, that is.

That appears to be exactly what you are advocating, at least from the standpoint of 1948.

Again, the evidence is strongly against you on this one:

Archaix 2270967: modern countries should not seek to be ethnically 'pure' ... modern countries should be neutral as regards religion

Archaix 2268763: A national culture that discriminates on ethnic and racial grounds is indistinguishable from apartheid ... My bullshit philosophy that states that one racial/ethnic group should not throttle another to death?

Archaix 2268146: I don't know why you're only capable of thinking in absolutes. Of course 'the Arabs' don't have a right to 'ethnic rule' over the region and crush minorities. Nor do Jews.

I guess that means you're wrong again. I'd quit, if I were you.

[Cyclone Ranger]

You said 'probably' without a shred of evidence, and continue to provide none.

It was 80% of the mandate, so it's hard to believe it wouldn't be. I'll see if I can find the census data.

And yes, well-funded Zionists managed to develop the land, and maintain a steady trickle of immigrants which would have kept labour costs down.

They were poor refugees from the pogroms and the Shoah with pretty minimal funding, other than what their co-ethnicists around the globe were willing to donate.

Of course, those lazy Arabs lived there a thousand years without doing anything -if you don't count chronic poverty, underinvestment and Turkish imperialism as a handicap, that is.

Don't know if the Arabs were lazy exactly - they put a lot of effort into conquering the entire region by force of arms - but they were certainly poor, due to lacking literacy and education, and apparently low desire to irrigate or plant ground cover.

Meanwhile, the Zionists also operated under the banner of Turkish imperialism, so it couldn't have been that much of an impediment.

[Archaix]

It was 80% of the mandate, so it's hard to believe it wouldn't be. I'll see if I can find the census data.

80% perhaps in terms of territory, but only 50% of the total population of the whole initial mandate. And I was allowing for all of those being Arabic, which I assume is near enough for the truth. Still waiting on your 'upper-end' statistics.

They were poor refugees from the pogroms and the Shoah with pretty minimal funding, other than what their co-ethnicists around the globe were willing to donate.

Your version of events seems to downplay the role and power of the Jewish National Fund somewhat.

Don't know if the Arabs were lazy exactly - they put a lot of effort into conquering the entire region by force of arms - but they were certainly poor, due to lacking literacy and education, and apparently low desire to irrigate or plant ground cover.

Only raise their arms to fight, huh. What a lazy...race.

Meanwhile, the Zionists also operated under the banner of Turkish imperialism, so it couldn't have been that much of an impediment.

External sources of aid and income didn't help Zionists much, then?

[GanjaFreebird]

Ganja: I'm not one of those "guys" who want to "finish what Hitler couldn't". That's a cheap, ridiculous and insulting thing to suggest.

Then what the fuck is your obsession with Israel about? Why don't you obsess over Japan, or Greece or Switzerland or Saudi-Arabia? Why do you want to take little Israel away from a minority group that almost suffered a complete genocide recently because they didn't have that country?

Snouter and Guido have their "Jewish issues" with their relatives, but what the fuck is your problem, as you're neither Jewish, nor an anti-Semite, apparently? What the hell is your deal with Israel and Jewish self-determination? Seriously.

[GanjaFreebird]

and that they had a strong ancestral claim (they didn't, most were very recent immigrants).

ALL ethnically Jewish people have a strong ancestral claim to Israel because that's where we from, and even you know it, so stop bullshitting.

Also, not ALL Jews were Zionist immigrants, many were indigenous Jews, such as my family there. And we NEEDED that country to be ruled by us because the Arabs and the British were murdering and raping us, stop pretending otherwise.

So now your argument is apparently that what's past is past and Palestinians now have a weaker claim. Notwithstanding that many of those people are alive, Israel's actions have put their direct descendents in a much worse position from birth.

Ok, here's the deal, let's just wait till all of them are dead and gone (what is it, like 10-20 years at the most) and then announce that NO Arabs that aren't citizens of Israel have ANY claims to it at all. Deal.

In addition, their claim for land in Israel is no less valid than Zionist Jews, and so you either have right of return for them too, or no one has the right of return. Or be a hypocrite.

No, because most of them are originally from Jordan, Egypt and Syria, maybe even the West Bank, but NOT from little Israel. We can't check which ones have roots in Israel before the Zionist immigrants arrived, and those are the ONLY ones who have any real claim to Israel, not the Arabs who just took advantage of our hard work.

[GanjaFreebird]

Just checking back to confirm the Zionists are satanically clueless about the Old Testament and that they still satanically hate the New Testament.

I've read the Torah many times and no, I don't hate the fairy tales that were based on the Torah, such as the New Testament.

What about that gay. piece of shit rabbi advisor to the zionist regime's politcal leaders who refers to normal human beings as "goyem" and the "goyem" are around simply to serve the zionists?

I don't care about anybody's sexual orientation, and I don't care what some rabbi may think about the goyim any more of what YOU think of SOME goyim (such as Blacks and Mexicans), I mean, even the Jewish people have their share of bigots, so what.

And it is the world's fuckin' business when the world is getting royally screwed by the lobby groups necessary to maintain the insanity that is the Zionist Regime. Just sayin'.

Lobby groups are created by people and if too many people feel that Israel should exist, that's too bad for "the world", and they can all burn in hell for all I care. Israel and America ALWAYS come first!

[GanjaFreebird]

I am troubled that the zionists DO NOT even refer to the OLD TESTAMENT to explain their point of view.

This isn't so much about our religion as much as it is about our culture, history and self-determination. Just like South-Africans didn't have to prove White people that it's their land because Christianity or some African religion says so, it's THEIR LAND because of REAL facts, not religion, same with Israel, it's OUR land because we're there, we have a history for thousands of years there, and we will kick our enemies asses if they have a problem, just like we've done many times before. You can argue with ANY religion all you want, but you can't argue with our weapons!!

The Bible is NOT about butthurt Ukrainians.

EXACTLY, which is why my family left those bigoted assholes and moved to our homeland in Israel where we really belong, just like your relatives moved there from Holland!!