Did Jesus Ever Really Exist?

[Cyclone Ranger]

Well, since Christianity BEGAN with Jesus, it could hardly be slowly dying BEFORE Him, now could it?

That's somewhat debatable, IMHO. Christianity began in the person of Jesus, certainly, but not really with him.

Jesus himself did not believe he was teaching a new faith, but rather, what he regarded to be the correct interpretation of the Jewish religion as per the Torah and the prophets. Christianity didn't emerge as a religion separate from Judaism for quite some time after his death.

[BooRadley]

What are the possible implications of Jesus never existing in the first place?

The stories would be completely make-believe about a make-believe person, rather than almost completely make-believe, about an almost completely make-believe person.

[Cyclone Ranger]

For my part, I would say Jesus was familiar with secular Greek philosophical tradition as well as Torah. It seems clear to me that many of his parables have sources in Plato's dialogues.

[kellyb]

Of course Protestants have a culture: WASP culture. Like, for example, the Protestant work ethic.

Are you joking?
The protestant work ethic is a myth. Catholics and jews and arabs are not lazy.

I don't even know how to respond to this. CR is not one to make jokes, but he/she's also said in recent days...other stuff.

And protestant christian WASP "culture" is hardly a culture that can endure without the superstitions. Dissolve the superstitions, and the whole "culture" fades away, and even family ties are strained, at best.

[BooRadley]

It seems to me that leaving Catholicism is a bit like becoming an atheist Jew. Not totally to the same extent, but that's more similar than a protestant leaving Christianity. Jews and Catholics have a culture. It's almost ok to be a Catholic atheist or Jewish atheist. Protestants are 150% about what you believe. Faith in the current doctrine is literally EVERYTHING. Change even one minor belief and you are OUT.

The strange phenomenon of atheist Jews and atheist Catholics exists. There are no atheist protestants. I deeply suspect that's because protestantism isn't a culture at all, comparatively.

Catholics have a culture. Jews do too. Not protestants.

To an extent, I guess. I'd say definitely so with Jews, because I've known atheist Jews, and they still considered themselves Jews. But I think anyone who stops believing in the Bible stops considering himself a Catholic, too. The Church would definitely stop considering him Catholic. I think it's more authoritarian, because they teach that God himself is running their church. Like, Pastor Bob runs your church, Reverend Joe runs that guy's church, and Jesus Christ runs our church. They even taught in CCD that it's better to not go to church than to go to a Protestant Church, because God doesn't recognize those churchs. They're not "real" churchs. lulz. In a way, Catholics worship the Church as much as the worship God.

The Catholic's do tend to be more flexible on a lot of issues, though, but definitely not completely. For example, I didn't start in catechism until my step dad left, because the Catholic Church doesn't recognise divorce, so they considered my mom to be engaging in adultery for her entire second marriage -- she wasn't allowed in church. Roofles.

Fuck all. Either way, it's dogma that taught as fact that must not be questioned. I think once you question it, you quickly realize why they didn't want you to question it.

[Cyclone Ranger]

LOL. My comments should not be construed to mean that non-Protestants are lazy. But not every culture values a work ethic for its own sake the way WASPs traditionally have.

[kellyb]

not every culture values a work ethic for its own sake the way WASPs traditionally have.

Holy shit.

Evidence?

[optimus]

That's somewhat debatable, IMHO. Christianity began in the person of Jesus, certainly, but not really with him.

Jesus himself did not believe he was teaching a new faith, but rather, what he regarded to be the correct interpretation of the Jewish religion as per the Torah and the prophets. Christianity didn't emerge as a religion separate from Judaism for quite some time after his death.

No, Christianity did not begin with Jesus. It began with paganism and ancient Egyptian mythology and astrology. Jesus never existed.

[optimus]

The stories would be completely make-believe about a make-believe person, rather than almost completely make-believe, about an almost completely make-believe person.

...And people would still believe in it.

[Cyclone Ranger]

Like, for example, Thomas Carlyle's many statements about the primacy of work ethic that express the traditional Protestant worldview.

[Cyclone Ranger]

No, Christianity did not begin with Jesus. It began with paganism and ancient Egyptian mythology and astrology. Jesus never existed.

In your opinion. Secular writers who lived contemporaneously with him, like Alcibitus and Josephus, felt differently.

[kellyb]

not every culture values a work ethic for its own sake the way WASPs traditionally have.

You probably have no idea what a racist POS you are, right? Like, you think it's obvious that WASPs have better work ethics than "some" other cultures.

Everything about your Obamabotness makes sense now.

Your mentality sucks competently. It's racist, pseudo-scientific horseshit.

You are WAY WAY worse than almost (Limbaugh fans excluded) any republican you pretend to be outraged by.

[Cyclone Ranger]

Um, I didn't say Protestants have better work ethics than other cultures, although they very well might. I said that not every culture values work ethic the way Protestants traditionally have.

btw, I'm not a Protestant.

[Cyclone Ranger]

For example, the ancient Athenians did not value work ethic. They felt work should be done by slaves, to free their citizens' time up to better serve the polis.

[BooRadley]

For example, the ancient Athenians did not value work ethic. They felt work should be done by slaves, to free their citizens' time up to better serve the polis.

WASPs in the US South never took up that frame of mind?

[Cyclone Ranger]

They used slavery to increase their economic output, not to create the type of leisure Aristotle, for example, felt was necessary to stimulate the progress of art and philosophy.

[kellyb]

To an extent, I guess. I'd say definitely so with Jews, because I've known atheist Jews, and they still considered themselves Jews. But I think anyone who stops believing in the Bible stops considering himself a Catholic, too. The Church would definitely stop considering him Catholic. I think it's more authoritarian, because they teach that God himself is running their church. Like, Pastor Bob runs your church, Reverend Joe runs that guy's church, and Jesus Christ runs our church. They even taught in CCD that it's better to not go to church than to go to a Protestant Church, because God doesn't recognize those churchs. They're not "real" churchs. lulz. In a way, Catholics worship the Church as much as the worship God.

The Catholic's do tend to be more flexible on a lot of issues, though, but definitely not completely. For example, I didn't start in catechism until my step dad left, because the Catholic Church doesn't recognise divorce, so they considered my mom to be engaging in adultery for her entire second marriage -- she wasn't allowed in church. Roofles.

Fuck all. Either way, it's dogma that taught as fact that must not be questioned. I think once you question it, you quickly realize why they didn't want you to question it.

I've never even gone to Catholic church. But my bff is "catholic" and semi-atheist, and she swears she's forever Catholic because they put water on her head as a baby. I dunno, that's her story. It doesn't compute to me as a former fundi evangelical. In Evangelical world, everything is seen as good vs evil, and good= Christian dominion. Any opposition to US Christian dominion is by default "evil"".

[Cyclone Ranger]

Sounds very black and white.

[optimus]

In your opinion. Secular writers who lived contemporaneously with him, like Alcibitus and Josephus, felt differently.

The Josephus source was proven a forgery for hundreds of years now. I can't find anything at all on "Alcibitus."

[optimus]

I've never even gone to Catholic church. But my bff is "catholic" and semi-atheist, and she swears she's forever Catholic because they put water on her head as a baby. I dunno, that's her story. It doesn't compute to me as a former fundi evangelical. In Evangelical world, everything is seen as good vs evil, and good= Christian dominion. Any opposition to US Christian dominion is by default "evil"".

In Catholicism, as long as you have been baptised you're a Catholic whether you like it or not, unless you're excommunicated from the church.