Did Jesus Ever Really Exist?

[lily]

Which part is misleading or untrue?

The thread brought up several names of other 'gods' that supposedly were born of a virgin. I went down the list, and if the thread is still around, you can read it there. Since I have to have my computer packed up in less than 2 hours (I'm moving) now is not the best time for me to do another detailed one-by-one refutal of those claims.

[lily]

By the way, I've started reading Mere Christianity, as you suggested I should. I'll get back to you when I've done.

That's good to hear! It's an excellent book, especially the first half, imo.

[BooRadley]

None of the other religions have better documentation.

Islam has a lot on Muhammad. The Haddith (sp?) covers his whole life, what pets he kept, how he kept his house, etc.

The water into wine thing for the already super-drunk was really original, I'll give you that. So my gut feeling there is that "You just can't make this shit up!"

I think the story was something like there was a wedding celebration, outdoors, and he and his followers came up to look for some food. I think it's not impossible that this story is kind of true, as in, he saw the wine cask get delivered and stashed by the water barrels, then brought it to the attention of the host, who, in a celebratory mood, rewarded his people with wine and food, and the story grew from there.

I think there really was a Mary and she really did get pregnant out of wedlock, and her foster father, for lack of a better word, really did marry her to take the hit for his failure, and they really did throw the kid out, and he really did build up a band of followers, and he really did get in trouble and get hanged. Then the rest of the stories grew up after, mostly adapted from other religions. He's practically the spitting image of Osiris. Death/resurrection/flesh & blood, etc.

Can only guess at which stories had a factual basis that then became fable, though. I take that one as one that's likely, because it's not unreasonable that such a thing happened. If he really was leading a bunch of homeless people, stumbling upon a wedding and looking for a handout wouldn't be at all far fetched. Scoring some wine by helping out the host, who was too busy to notice that it had been dropped off, seems reasonable, too.

I find it funny that the Romans have such detailed history on so many things, but Jesus is basically a ...rumor.

They destroyed a lot. There were other gospels, but they were outlawed on penalty of death. Anything that contradicted the official catechism was burned. Since anything real would contradict the catechism, it all had to go.

Plus, Jesus wasn't really important until almost 250 years after he died.

And...we haven't talked about all the similarities of the life of Jesus and other historical "gods," such as Dionysus, Mithras, Horus, etc. Themes of eating the body of a god, dying and resurrecting, being born of a virgin mother and so on were not unique to Jesus. It's almost as if the writers of the gospel just blatantly ripped off themes from other mythologies.

Almost? I dare say not almost.

Constantine wanted a religion with only one temple/high priest/priest class to maintain. Easier than maintaining a dozen and a half different heirarchies. So he grabbed Christianity, picked up the ones who were willing to work with him, banned everything else, bacame the Holy Roman Emperor, then turned half the population into surfs -- managed primarily by the Church he just invented.

[kellyb]

I think the story was something like there was a wedding celebration, outdoors, and he and his followers came up to look for some food. I think it's not impossible that this story is kind of true, as in, he saw the wine cask get delivered and stashed by the water barrels, then brought it to the attention of the host, who, in a celebratory mood, rewarded his people with wine and food, and the story grew from there.

I think there really was a Mary and she really did get pregnant out of wedlock, and her foster father, for lack of a better word, really did marry her to take the hit for his failure, and they really did throw the kid out, and he really did build up a band of followers, and he really did get in trouble and get hanged. Then the rest of the stories grew up after, mostly adapted from other religions. He's practically the spitting image of Osiris. Death/resurrection/flesh & blood, etc.

Can only guess at which stories had a factual basis that then became fable, though. I take that one as one that's likely, because it's not unreasonable that such a thing happened. If he really was leading a bunch of homeless people, stumbling upon a wedding and looking for a handout wouldn't be at all far fetched. Scoring some wine by helping out the host, who was too busy to notice that it had been dropped off, seems reasonable, too.

That's certainly possible. I just think being a really good magician would be the best way to be seen as a holy man back in the day. And there are a lot of miracles listed.

[BooRadley]

That's certainly possible. I just think being a really good magician would be the best way to be seen as a holy man back in the day. And there are a lot of miracles listed.

I think being a slick hustler who can think on his feet would be good enough. In fact, I'm personally convinced that it was.

[BooRadley]

Oh, I forgot to mention something. There's a lot of speculation that, prior to getting kicked out of the house when he was 30, may have run across some Buddhists and come up with a kind of crazy blend of Yahwehism and Buddhism, with himself as a great prophet, that was the basis of what he was peddling. It might have been the basis of what got him thrown out of the house and ultimately crucified, too.

[Šñøü†ê®]

...I just think being a really good magician would be the best way to be seen as a holy man back in the day. And there are a lot of miracles listed.

I think being a slick hustler who can think on his feet would be good enough...

Okay folks, I will venture to guess you both have not thoroughly examined the information in the New Testament nor the Dead Sea Scrolls. Have either of you read either piece of literature? A magician is ridiculous since there was no trick photography and based on the Gospels the 12 disciples themselves were often confused by His words and actions, so He was not even hustling them.

[kellyb]

Uh, magic tricks have been around for a lot longer than photography.

[Šñøü†ê®]

Folks in the ancient days were probably A LOT more skeptical about tricks and if you are familiar with magic tricks THEY ARE ALL OBVIOUS without trick photography! Don't be wasting my time. Have you read and studied the Gospels and the controversial Dead Sea Scrolls?

[Cyclone Ranger]

Islam has a lot on Muhammad. The Haddith (sp?) covers his whole life, what pets he kept, how he kept his house, etc.

Much of which is certainly mythical. Note that, unlike Jesus, Muhammad lived in historical times.

[hadit]

What you posted is in dispute as being written by Paul even by Biblical scholars. If you read the entire letter you will notice that part doesn't not have the same flow as the Paul's writings and is believed to have been added years late to justify Paul meeting Jesus.

You referenced it in the post to which I was responding. Was that the passage you were talking about to justify your claim that Paul met Peter and James and they should have been trying to evangelize him or not?

[hadit]

Plus, Jesus wasn't really important until almost 250 years after he died.

Oh, brother, are YOU ever misinformed.

[antiquity]

You referenced it in the post to which I was responding. Was that the passage you were talking about to justify your claim that Paul met Peter and James and they should have been trying to evangelize him or not?

Its not my claim, it was written by Paul in his letters to Galatian. The part you added is in dispute by a lot of Biblical scholars as not written by Paul but later to fill in years of missing parts about Jesus.

[antiquity]

Oh, brother, are YOU ever misinformed.

In many parts of the ancient Christian world Jesus was thought to be a great preacher but a mortal man. It was Constantine after commissioning the writing of the Bible in about 325 AD who helped destroyed these beliefs for his own personal gains.

[BooRadley]

Oh, brother, are YOU ever misinformed.

Christianity was minor until Constantine officiated it throughout Rome. Prior Roman history refers to Christians as a handful of wild criminals and terrorists, but a small and managable group. Christianity wasn't a major movement until Paul's followers got government sponsorship in Rome.

[jwreck]

No more so than the documentaries, TV shows and oh yeah, Easter trying to prove that he does exist.

This thread is proving my point. If you believe he existed, why the need to convince me?

[hadit]

Christianity was minor until Constantine officiated it throughout Rome. Prior Roman history refers to Christians as a handful of wild criminals and terrorists, but a small and managable group. Christianity wasn't a major movement until Paul's followers got government sponsorship in Rome.

1. They were followers of Jesus, not Paul.
2. Christianity had spread throughout the known world long before Constantine ended official Roman state persecution.
3. Jesus certainly was very important to every one of His followers.
4. You are arguing that importance = state sponsorship. Would you therefore argue that Martin Luther King was not important before the Civil Rights Act? Or that Ghandi wasn't important until India adopted some of his ideas? Of course not. They were important for changing hearts and minds long before the state got involved. So it is with Jesus.

[hadit]

This thread is proving my point. If you believe he existed, why the need to convince me?

It's the Great Commission. If you don't want to be convinced, you don't have to be. It is telling, however, that so many have gone to such great lengths to deny Jesus' very existence. It's almost as if they can't afford to admit He did, and then have to deal with what He said.

[hadit]

Its not my claim, it was written by Paul in his letters to Galatian. The part you added is in dispute by a lot of Biblical scholars as not written by Paul but later to fill in years of missing parts about Jesus.

Was that the Scripture you were referring to or not?

If not, you said Galatians, and I would like to know what you were referring to when you made your claim.

[hadit]

Ah, but the church could. Why? To pull together believers to a slowly dying movement. Other words to prop up their ratings.

What slowly dying movement? Christianity spread like wildfire in those days.