Did Jesus Ever Really Exist?

[kellyb]

None of those hypotheses explain it all: there have certainly been people who have experienced spiritual epiphanies that can't be explained by hallucinations, brain insult, or drugs

Examples?

[lily]

Yeah, a tumor is what caused my life to do a 180 (for the better) and what I can see moving in my life on a regular basis.



That's funny, although getting close to a pavlos-level of antitheism.

[kellyb]

Nope, it has to do with one's attitude, as well as other things that can block people from God.

I've been wanting to write a blog post on this topic, because I see a lot of people with a very prideful, stubborn, 'God needs to prove himself on MY terms' mindset. From what I've seen, that doesn't usually happen. One would be lucky if God opened the eyes of someone with that kind of attitude. Where a person is heart-wise makes a huge difference, iyam.

The problem is that you can believe in anything that you're determined to believe. And things that are actually real don't need that sort of dedication to believing in them.

[Cyclone Ranger]

Who made you an expert on distinguishing between reality and illusion?

[lily]

The problem is that you can believe in anything that you're determined to believe. And things that are actually real don't need that sort of dedication to believing in them.

I was not "determined" to believe. I wasn't even THINKING about God at all before my eyes were opened. You don't know my testimony, so don't make assumptions.

[Cyclone Ranger]

Examples?

Lily, for one. The Apostle Paul, for another.

[optimus]

I think there is most likely a genetic predisposition to "believing in God," and certain events can even trigger these genes. I actually think there is an evolutionary basis for believing in God, or a higher power of some sort, because it helped humans survive. I believe there is a book that proposes this theory, though I haven't read it.

I think at one point in our evolution, 100% of humans believed in God. I think only recently a smaller percentage of humans come into the world with an inability to believe, and this is probably related to progressive genes as well, which have also shown to be fairly new in our evolution.

[hadit]

None of those hypotheses explain it all: there have certainly been people who have experienced spiritual epiphanies that can't be explained by hallucinations, brain insult, or drugs

Exactly. It's one thing to say that those CAN cause strange things to happen in the brain, quite another to claim that ALL who have spiritual experiences are on drugs or have suffered brain trauma. There have been far too many people throughout history who have had these experiences to say that ALL were effected by that.

[kellyb]

Lily, for one. The Apostle Paul, for another.

Paul's epiphany actually sounds like an epileptic seizure.

[kellyb]

I was not "determined" to believe. I wasn't even THINKING about God at all before my eyes were opened. You don't know my testimony, so don't make assumptions.

People can have sudden conversions to New Agey stuff, Islam, etc, too. Doesn't mean it wasn't neurologically triggered.

[lily]

I'll pray for you guys. Btw, what's with the pentagram in your av?

[kellyb]

Exactly. It's one thing to say that those CAN cause strange things to happen in the brain, quite another to claim that ALL who have spiritual experiences are on drugs or have suffered brain trauma. There have been far too many people throughout history who have had these experiences to say that ALL were effected by that.

The hypothesis is that it's (possibly) all either neurological and/or psychological, not necessarily confined to tumors and trauma and drugs.

[kellyb]

I'll pray for you guys. Btw, what's with the pentagram in your av?

Cute fuzzy animals having a seance or something. It amuses me.

[jwreck]

I've said it before, I'll say it again, religion is not multiple choice. If you're picking one of the available options that's fine for you, but don't judge me because I don't feel obligated to follow suite.

[hadit]

The hypothesis is that it's (possibly) all either neurological and/or psychological, not necessarily confined to tumors and trauma and drugs.

Every possible explanation except the simplest one of all. That's the only one that cannot be accepted.

[kellyb]

Every possible explanation except the simplest one of all. That's the only one that cannot be accepted.

No, that CAN and HAS been accepted, by myself and many other former believers.

The problem with belief in the paranormal and the Christian God in particular, is that once you accept the religion, you have to "guard your thoughts" and accept that common sense (the wisdom of the world) isn't safe/real. And beyond that, deconverting means HELLFIRE if you question and reach the wrong idea. So there are these firewalls (literally) set up to maintain the belief system.

I WANT to believe in god if god is real. I want only the real truth. But I don't want to be so openminded my brain falls out. And I don't want to open myself up to a belief system that is inherently brainwashy by virtue of the "Guard your thoughts!" teachings. I've already been there and done that. I'm too curious by nature to do it correctly.

Again, if god is really real, I definitely WANT to know it. The difference between me and many other believers is that I'm willing to consider that the Christian Experience might just be a delusion, akin to what Christians think the Muslim, Hindu, New Age etc experiences are.

But really even just wondering if maybe you are totally, totally wrong is literally sin to the Christian. That's not guarding your thoughts, and it's not faith.

And if that doesn't do the trick, it puts you at risk of hell to seriously question.

The belief system is a trap. I've BTDT.

[lily]

But really even just wondering if maybe you are totally, totally wrong is literally sin to the Christian. That's not guarding your thoughts, and it's not faith.

And if that doesn't do the trick, it puts you at risk of hell to seriously question.

The belief system is a trap. I've BTDT.

I don't think that's true. If you read the Psalms, there are numerous examples of doubt or frustration with God. Also in a few other OT places, as well as the New Testament (Thomas, and a few of the other disciples) It's not always portrayed as a sin if it's just doubt with a true desire for God's revelation and to have more faith.

Unbelief is a sin, but if you read the scriptures, the type of unbelief that is a sin is the hard-hearted, prideful, stubborn or angry type of unbelief. I don't think mere doubt is a sin, which is what you seem to be talking about when you said, "Just wondering if you are totally wrong."

The problem with belief in the paranormal and the Christian God in particular, is that once you accept the religion, you have to "guard your thoughts" and accept that common sense (the wisdom of the world) isn't safe/real. And beyond that, deconverting means HELLFIRE if you question and reach the wrong idea. So there are these firewalls (literally) set up to maintain the belief system.

This seems to be a misunderstanding of "guarding" one's thoughts. It's true that the bible warns that the "wisdom of man" is foolishness in comparison to true wisdom. But that is basically a statement that human beings are fallible and often THINK they know it all and come up with their own "truth" that is often in opposition to God... and the bible goes on to state that true wisdom comes from God, the creator and the source of truth, intelligence and wisdom.

So, it's not "guard your thoughts" as in "don't ask questions or think critically." Again, it's a teaching that there is a difference between society's or mankind's "wisdom" and true wisdom which comes from God.

Or, if you are talking about Proverbs 4:23, almost all bible versions translate that as "Guard your heart" which is very good advice when you consider what this verse is actually saying.

The word "heart" here is translated from the Hebrew word lev which (as you correctly stated) includes our thoughts, but it's more than that, it's also our will, understanding, or to sum it up, our 'inner man', as you can see here. So it's not just an intellectual thing, there's a moral element to it. I think it's basically a warning to be discerning and to keep one's heart (soul, inner man) pure, as opposed to filled with evil thoughts or lies, because our actions and life come from what is inside of us.

Do you disagree with "guard your heart" in that sense?

[Šñøü†ê®]

The "guarding of thoughts" is an interesting topic because what you think becomes your reality. Very basic phenomena. Which is why guarding thoughts is intelligent if one hopes to improve oneself.

[kellyb]

It's not always portrayed as a sin if it's just doubt with a true desire for God's revelation and to have more faith.

Unbelief is a sin, but if you read the scriptures, the type of unbelief that is a sin is the hard-hearted, prideful, stubborn or angry type of unbelief. I don't think mere doubt is a sin, which is what you seem to be talking about when you said, "Just wondering if you are totally wrong."

See? You're doing it right there!

Unbelief IS a sin, and doubt and questions are only ok if they lead you to religious answers. When you're Christian, you can't actually even wonder if maybe god doesn't really exist outside your mind. It's a forbidden question. So of course it's a self-perpetuating belief system once you get stuck in it.

[jwreck]

"Jesus is my answer, what a friend is he..."