Society's Assumptions About Contraception, Sex and Abortion (long post ahead!)

[lily]

childish as in healthy-protecting poeple from disease and emotional torment?

Yep, I'm waiting to hear next that drug abuse, getting drunk, maybe some petty theft and physical abuse is also "mature" and those who believe in trying to live a clean life are just "childish."

[optimus]

I've heard that many times from different people who support abortion. I was speaking in general. As for your position...well, I don't think this is the thread to get into that, but I disagree with the "I'm personally pro-life but pro-choice for other people" view, when it comes to abortion. It's either homicide or it isn't.

I know you think that. And that's because you want to impose your beliefs on everyone, like the majority of pro-lifers.

[lily]

I know you think that. And that's because you want to impose your beliefs on everyone, like the majority of pro-lifers.

You disagree that abortion is either homicide or it isn't?

I'm not the one playing God and deciding it's OK to end the life of a 10 week old preborn baby, because to me it's not a human being. THAT is imposing one's beliefs, and in a way that is irreversible.

Some people also thought Blacks were less than human, or Jews, or disabled people. Why is it up to anyone to decide others should die because they don't qualify as human beings according to some people?

[lily]

Oh great. I didn't want this to turn into an abortion debate. You shouldn't have got me started.

[fat mike]

I know you think that. And that's because you want to impose your beliefs on everyone, like the majority of pro-lifers.

name 3 people who dont want others to agree with them-then tell me why vbull has morphed into this pos

[optimus]

You disagree that abortion is either homicide or it isn't?

I'm not the one playing God and deciding it's OK to end the life of a 10 week old preborn baby, because to me it's not a human being. THAT is imposing one's beliefs, and in a way that is irreversible.

Some people also thought Blacks were less than human, or Jews, or disabled people. Why is it up to anyone to decide others should die because they don't qualify as human beings according to some people?

Look, if you want people to get on board with you, you can't FORCE it on them. That never works, as you may have realized after years of debating this topic. People have to come to conclusions on their own. A different approach is needed.

[lily]

Look, if you want people to get on board with you, you can't FORCE it on them. That never works, as you may have realized after years of debating this topic. People have to come to conclusions on their own. A different approach is needed.

Well, actually I know that since this is such a heated and difficult issue, and minds have to change before things can change... I support Ron Paul's position on this issue. He believes the constitutional position is to leave it to the states. Murder and acts of violence are already handled on the state level, usually, so it would make sense. I think that must be the right way to resolve it, because I know there are a number of people who support Ron Paul who are actually supporters of legal abortion. So, it appears, they are willing to go along with that.

ETA: But I also agree with his bill that would declare that life begins at conception.

[lily]

Oh, now I see why you thought I was referring to solely you (opti). Because you had stated you were personally pro-life.

No, what started that was jojo's trolling comment, "Most pro-choice people are pro-life" and then a couple of you agreed with him. And as I said, I've heard that before by others on the other side of this debate. So I was speaking to all those who have said that, I wasn't referring to your position.

[Sparkly Mary]

Oh, now I see why you thought I was referring to solely you (opti). Because you had stated you were personally pro-life.

No, what started that was jojo's trolling comment, "Most pro-choice people are pro-life" and then a couple of you agreed with him. And as I said, I've heard that before by others on the other side of this debate. So I was speaking to all those who have said that, I wasn't referring to your position.

Lily,
I'm very pro-life for ME, because I can only make the final call on MY pregnancies. I can't make the final call on some random stranger's pregnancy half-way across the country, because it's not mine to make.
For that reason, I'm pro choice, and want others to make the decisions that they feel they need to make for them and their situations.
I've been pregnant 6 times, 2 of those in less than ideal circumstances. Those pregnancies have resulted in my 22-year old and my 6-year old. The other 2 that were planned resulted in my 17-year old and my 3-year old. In 2006 I had back-to-back miscarriages, and in 2008 I lost my 3-year old's twin in utero.
So in 6 pregnancies, I never once made the choice to abort. It wasn't even an option for me. However, I can't tell someone else what she has to do with regards to her pregnancy.
It's not devaluing life or looking at abortion as homicide, it's about butting out and not trying to say that because I never have and never would have an abortion, you can't either because "I" think it's bad.
That's all being pro choice is for me. Simply letting others make their own choices, even if I don't agree with them.

[hadit]

And who says premarital sex is fornication? Is that in the bible?

Merriam-Webster says it is:

Definition of FORNICATION
: consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other

The definition is stark and simple. The Biblical words translated as "fornication" mean sex outside of marriage, period. And as lily has pointed out, the Bible is VERY emphatic on avoiding fornication.

[hadit]

Nah, just correcting your errors

You have a strange way of attempting to do it.

[fat mike]

Simply letting others make their own choices, even if I don't agree with them.

or if you consider it out and out murder like me and lily its more analogous to allowing a person to perform an act of violence=i dont agree people have the right to kill

[kellyb]

Which means nothing, if moral relativism is true. And of course is no better than the opinion of say, Charles Manson, the late Kim Jon-il, Hitler or anyone else.

I don't see how you can call human thoughts and feeling "nothing". They're not as big as god, but they are something.

Well of course, I wasn't asking them what they personally thought about those things. I specifically asked them if they felt that in reality (apart from their opinion) those acts were inherently equal. Knowing what I was asking, most still can't answer that question.

The question can't be answered apart from the opinions of people. I and most other people think human suffering is bad, and therefore, hurting people is wrong. So, no, the acts are not equal.

Again, it's not wrong according to your worldview. It doesn't matter what you personally think, that means nothing, if one believes morality is entirely relative.

I don't think that what I think means nothing. Murder is wrong because I say so.

I'm sorry to say this, but I think that is silly. Intelligence, knowledge, wisdom.... those things don't come from man. They exist apart from mankind.

Well, I think it's silly to invent imaginary people to make reality more palatable. And intelligence, etc can only come from and exist within things/people that actually exist.

Let me ask you this question: Would you agree that logic is absolute?

Probably not.

Humans aren't anywhere near "gods." Obviously humans are fallible, limited, imperfect. I realize your point was that (because in your mind there is no God) you think humans are the closest thing to a "god." I think that is the height of arrogance, to think that WE are the highest beings of the universe, or the source of things like knowledge and wisdom, justice, beauty, love, etc. Mankind messes up on a daily basis, we can't even get along, we are clearly a mess. But I think to not see that there IS universal truth, and things that man had nothing to do with is completely blind.

It seems arrogant to me, too. And I'm not particularly happy with my own conclusion. I think man has little to do with most of the universe, and I do think there is an objective reality which could possibly be defined as universal truth.

As for your take on the Christian God, I can see why you dumped Christianity. You never knew God as He truly is. You have the "infidels.org" skewed, carnal take on God. Which is really very sad. I know some atheists hate it when people say this, but I'll remember you in my prayers.

Oh, I had a a positive view of what I considered to be an awesome, loving god for years. I was quite good at ignoring the OT god's mass murders, demands for genocide, etc. But the day eventually came where I realized that the god of the OT was psychotic and not worthy of worship and not distinguishable from the devil.

[Sparkly Mary]

or if you consider it out and out murder like me and lily its more analogous to allowing a person to perform an act of violence=i dont agree people have the right to kill

I know you don't agree, and that's fine. It's just my opinion, just like your opinion is yours.

[Zordar]

I know you don't agree, and that's fine. It's just my opinion, just like your opinion is yours.

Not all opinions are created equal, many are not even based in fact.

[Sparkly Mary]

Not all opinions are created equal, many are not even based in fact.

That's the great thing about opinions, though, we can all have them, regardless of how foolish anyone may find them.

[hadit]

Oh, I had a a positive view of what I considered to be an awesome, loving god for years. I was quite good at ignoring the OT god's mass murders, demands for genocide, etc. But the day eventually came where I realized that the god of the OT was psychotic and not worthy of worship and not distinguishable from the devil.

Judgement will come.

[Zordar]

That's the great thing about opinions, though, we can all have them, regardless of how foolish anyone may find them.

This is true. My point is that when objective facts are involved, opinions aren't equally valid.

"It's just my opinion, just like your opinion is yours" works just fine if you're arguing with somebody about whether your favorite basketball team will make it to the Final Four. You can invoke statistics ("But a #12 seed has never made it that far!"), but it's all tea leave and personal preferences, really. And that's fine. But if somebody wants to say something ridiculous like "Abstinence only works and is the way to go!" you are enabling dishonesty and/or stupidity by acting as if there is any validity to their opinion. Some opinions should be mocked, derided, and crushed at every opportunity.

[Sparkly Mary]

This is true. My point is that when objective facts are involved, opinions aren't equally valid.

"It's just my opinion, just like your opinion is yours" works just fine if you're arguing with somebody about whether your favorite basketball team will make it to the Final Four. You can invoke statistics ("But a #12 seed has never made it that far!"), but it's all tea leave and personal preferences, really. And that's fine. But if somebody wants to say something ridiculous like "Abstinence only works and is the way to go!" you are enabling dishonesty and/or stupidity by acting as if there is any validity to their opinion. Some opinions should be mocked, derided, and crushed at every opportunity.

Perhaps, but I don't tend to try to browbeat someone to change to my opinion because I think theirs is based on a fallacy.

[Zordar]

Perhaps, but I don't tend to try to browbeat someone to change to my opinion because I think theirs is based on a fallacy.

If it's harmless, there's no point. If it is harmful, allowing their idiocy to reign unchallenged makes you an enabler of evil.