Society's Assumptions About Contraception, Sex and Abortion (long post ahead!)

[Zordar]

That would make them about 19-20. Unfortunately, that is not happening and there are so many societal and family issues at play as reasons.

Are there biological issues at play, too, or is it all nurture, no nature?

[kellyb]

It would be great if teens did not have sex until the are emotionally and physically equipped to handle it. That would make them about 19-20. Unfortunately, that is not happening and there are so many societal and family issues at play as reasons.

I'm not sure the age isn't a bit younger. I think the "extended childhood" of modern society might be a root cause of some of our social ills. There's definitely some degree of variation between people and their developmental timeline, but I got married at 19, and I do think I was ready. And that happened after a reasonable amount of partner-testing and sexual activity.

[Lulu]

Are there biological issues at play, too, or is it all nurture, no nature?

I don't know but I will say this... girls seem to be developing at an alarming rate these days. I don't know if it's the hormones in our food, too much soy or what but they have boobs by 13, periods by 12. It's crazy.

Add to that broken families, absent fathers or mothers, not enough structure at home, wanting to fit in with friends, etc., kids seem to develop and experiment way too soon imo.

[kellyb]

Are there biological issues at play, too, or is it all nurture, no nature?

I think there are HUGE biological issues at play, and they often kick in well before age 19! Even when the "nurture" aspect tries to make young women virtually a-sexual before the "approved" age.

[kellyb]

I don't know but I will say this... girls seem to be developing at an alarming rate these days. I don't know if it's the hormones in our food, too much soy or what but they have boobs by 13, periods by 12. It's crazy.

Add to that broken families, absent fathers or mothers, not enough structure at home, wanting to fit in with friends, etc., kids seem to develop and experiment way too soon imo.

Girls used to often get married off at age 14, tho, back in the day. I think that's nuts, but I think it might also be reflective of sexual development for our species. I think we should acknowledge all of the complicated aspects of sexuality, society, etc. And I think that means at least giving a nod to the fact that a lot of girls are sexually in full swing at 16.

[hadit]

You are such a disgusting liar.

By the 1930s, young people were getting treatable STDs at such a high rate -- without knowing it -- that the Venereal Disease Control Act was passed, which led to mandatory pre-marital STD tests for couples in many states. This is not a "modern issue" tied to "liberal attitudes toward sex," it's an issue that has been following humanity since people have been having sex.

You may be right about pregnancy rates, liar, but we'll never know, since the social taboo was so steep, many girls "went to boarding school," or "went to live with Aunt Millie for a year" upon getting pregnant, without ever recording their pregnancy. Accurate statistics on sexual behavior are notoriously hard to come by, even today, and our culture is worlds more open about it than in the 1950s.

You sound angry.

[lily]

Ok I'm sorry but I find it odd that 2 grown adults have to humiliate themselves and apologize for having sex like they are naughty teenagers. It's something that should be intimate and positive and cherished, not something to be judged on by peers or forgiven by the camp leaders even if the rule is no premarital sex. As for me, as a grown woman in a monogamous, respectful loving relationship, I'm going to have sex, I'm going to enjoy it and I'm going to be on birth control because I DO NOT want a baby.

It would be great if teens did not have sex until the are emotionally and physically equipped to handle it. That would make them about 19-20. Unfortunately, that is not happening and there are so many societal and family issues at play as reasons.

I do have a greater appreciation as why my mother rejected Catholicism at 19 and refused to raise me that way.

Hold on just a minute. You didn't have all the details, and you also seem to be missing the fact that I was talking about young people who had committed to doing missions work for a certain length of time and be a part of that community, and they were fully aware that during that time, they had to abide by the general rules of conduct.

Some things I didn't mention. The guy was, as you said, a "grown adult" (I think he was 31 at the time) but the girl was a lot younger. I don't remember her age, but she was in her late teens, maybe 18.

And since he was in a (somewhat) leadership position - he was the worship leader, and she also was in somewhat of a leadership position - as one of the staffers for the discipleship training school, they had even more of a responsibility to lead by example and "walk the walk' not just talk the talk. Whether you like it or not, the bible teaches that sex outside of marriage is a sin. So I think the real problem you have is not with this incident, but with the rules of Christianity itself.

And again, they came forward willingly, so there's no need to feel sorry for them, they wanted to come clean. And apart from the consequence they got from the leadership, most people did not "judge" them, they just understood that sometimes we mess up, because we're human, and I'm sure everyone there remembered that "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." message from Jesus.

[kellyb]

the bible teaches that sex outside of marriage is a sin

Where?

[Zordar]

You sound angry.

Nah, just correcting your errors

[lily]

Where?

There are tons of verses that talk about fornication, sexual immorality, impurity, etc. I doubt anyone wants this to turn into a bible study, so I'll just post a link to a page that has a bunch of verses on this topic:

http://www.openbible.info/topics/fornication

The thing is, you can't just look at a handful of verses, one has to study the whole bible and learn about what God expects of us. There is a huge emphasis in the bible on sanctification and "departing from old ways" or being set apart from "the world." And it not only talks about being holy and sanctified, but it talks about avoiding even the appearance of sin.

[Lulu]

Well, that's a bit different if he was in a leadership role. As far as having problems with the rules of Christianity. I don't - people can choose how they want to live but those rules don't apply to me. This whole thread seems to be on the construct that we should follow rules of Christianity w/ regards to our sex lives (if I'm interpreting correctly ? - I didn't read it all). And that simply doesn't apply to everyone.

[kellyb]

There are tons of verses that talk about fornication, sexual immorality, impurity, etc. I doubt anyone wants this to turn into a bible study, so I'll just post a link to a page that has a bunch of verses on this topic:

http://www.openbible.info/topics/fornication

The thing is, you can't just look at a handful of verses, one has to study the whole bible and learn about what God expects of us. There is a huge emphasis in the bible on sanctification and "departing from old ways" or being set apart from "the world." And it not only talks about being holy and sanctified, but it talks about avoiding even the appearance of sin.

And who says premarital sex is fornication? Is that in the bible?

[optimus]

I would like Lily to explain her beef in one paragraph, if possible. I'm still not 100% sure what it is that you're trying to say.

[lily]

Well, that's a bit different if he was in a leadership role. As far as having problems with the rules of Christianity. I don't - people can choose how they want to live but those rules don't apply to me. This whole thread seems to be on the construct that we should follow rules of Christianity w/ regards to our sex lives (if I'm interpreting correctly ? - I didn't read it all). And that simply doesn't apply to everyone.

No, no, no. In fact, I made it clear from the start that I was not going to bring religion into this, because I don't expect non-christians do go by christian beliefs, obviuosly. If you re-read the OP, you will see that I didn't focus at all on "what is moral" (because we all have different ideas on that) but on what is the healthiest, wisest best approach that works. Does it work to promote the idea that the bonding/pleasurable aspect of sex can be completely severed from its more serious aspect? That was the main question up for discussion, and it doesn't need to be about morality, but about what actually works in reality. If people are getting pregnant, having abortions, getting STDs, getting emotionally hurt, etc.... then shouldn't that be a hint that maybe it doesn't work to promote sex as purely recreational? Again, Christianity or ANY moral belief system don't need to enter this discussion, because we're talking about what actually works best on a societal level.

If I did bring up any christian beliefs in the OP, please point them out. I'm pretty sure I didn't.

[optimus]

And who says premarital sex is fornication? Is that in the bible?

No, it's not. Some Christians claim it is, but it isn't.

[lily]

hold on, my phone is ringing.

[kellyb]

No, it's not. Some Christians claim it is, but it isn't.

I was never able to find it in the Bible, either.

[kellyb]

No, no, no. In fact, I made it clear from the start that I was not going to bring religion into this, because I don't expect non-christians do go by christian beliefs, obviuosly. If you re-read the OP, you will see that I didn't focus at all on "what is moral" (because we all have different ideas on that) but on what is the healthiest, wisest best approach that works.

If you want to know what "works", look to the Netherlands. Little teen pregnancy, little abortion.

We're not in a position where we're left speculating about what works. We know what works as a matter of fact.

[lily]

If you want to know what "works", look to the Netherlands. Little teen pregnancy, little abortion.

We're not in a position where we're left speculating about what works. We know what works as a matter of fact.

I already addressed that, to Zordar. I posted an excerpt from an article that showed they had clued in to the fact that a strong, clear connection needs to be made between sex and pregnancy, which wasn't focused on before. So apparently they DID do that, and their teen pregnancy is way down. That pretty much backs up my point that in this country that message is getting lost or forgotten, because of the mixed messages and promotion of sex as purely recreational.

[Zordar]

If you want to know what "works", look to the Netherlands. Little teen pregnancy, little abortion.

But that doesn't jibe with the values of those who want everybody as miserable and sexually frustrated as themselves. In the Netherlands, they teach facts, responsibility and *gasp* let young, unmarried people make up their own minds about having sex. Sure, it works, but we can't have that! It has to be facts and responsibility (unless they don't fit within the moral framework) and don't have sex until you're in a G_d-approved marriage or you will ruin your life!