Reply With QuoteYou're arguing something I never claimed. I wasn't talking about "abstinence only education" I was talking about abstinence in and of itself, and his comments about it.Originally Posted by kellyb
You're making a huge assumption there, based on your preconceived notions about all of this.
I can't speak for all of those young people, but I do know a number of people who have chosen to wait, and most of them are just as horny as the next person.
You seem to underestimate the power of human volition and self-control. If one has a strong belief system in place, and a strong sense of who they are, it is definitely possible to go against what most people in society are doing.
As I said from the beginning of the OP, it DOES require a complete change of one's mindset and worldview.... and I don't want to make it sound like this is only a religious thing, but it seems that usually happens when a person goes through spiritual renewal.
I don't know, I can't speak for them. But I do know that it's possible to change one's lifestyle and habits. Again, I don't know how common that is apart from having a spiritual renewal.I knew a bunch of christian teens who swore they never masturbated, too. What's up with that? Low sex drive, or shame?
Obviously, but my point was that it's a cop out to claim that people can't control their urges. Yes, people can and do.A VAST majority of men never rape anyone or ever feel a desire to. You know that's not the same.
Haha! Um, you couldn't be more wrong. I was a non-Christian for most of my life. Unlike many other people, I didn't come to God at an early age. I was a nonbeliever, and VERY unreligious up until the point when I finally did come to Christ, which was the biggest turning point in my life.Honestly, it sounds to me like your perception of secular society is based on Christian propaganda. And I say this as a former fundamentalist Christian who was taught those same misconceptions (I started getting out of fundy Christianity when I was around 14.)
And btw, my life was VERY worldly. I've posted this before, but I've seen/done pretty much it all. I am still "in the world" although my worldview is of course completely different now. I am still surrounded by nonbelievers, and I am in no way unware of secular society, in fact I would say I'm probably much more aware of it than the average Christian.
And if you want it, come and get it... for crying out loud!
'cause this love that he has given you was never in doubt.
Let go of your heart, let go of your head and feel it now.
Let go of your heart, let go of your head, feel it now...
You're arguing something I never claimed. I wasn't talking about "abstinence only education" I was talking about abstinence in and of itself, and his comments about it.
And if you want it, come and get it... for crying out loud!
'cause this love that he has given you was never in doubt.
Let go of your heart, let go of your head and feel it now.
Let go of your heart, let go of your head, feel it now...
The acceptance of abortion is not the devaluation of life.
Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature.... Life is either a daring adventure or nothing.
- H Keller
Rayney (03-08-2012)
I think you misunderstood how I was using the word "nature." I was talking about nature in the sense of biology and how things are designed to be.
As for your second point, like opti and Zordar, you seem to have missed the part of my post where I clearly stated that the natural end of sex is both bonding/pleasure AND preoccupation. Not only one or the other.
You did bring up an interesting claim though. That being human is about "transcending the state of nature." Maybe you need to elaborate, but I think we're starting to confuse natural/carnal instincts with "nature" - in the sense of, how things are meant to be. Am I making sense there?
And if you want it, come and get it... for crying out loud!
'cause this love that he has given you was never in doubt.
Let go of your heart, let go of your head and feel it now.
Let go of your heart, let go of your head, feel it now...
I'm going to take a break for a bit, but I'll be back to this thread later. thanks you guys!
And if you want it, come and get it... for crying out loud!
'cause this love that he has given you was never in doubt.
Let go of your heart, let go of your head and feel it now.
Let go of your heart, let go of your head, feel it now...
By definition, abortion is destroying an innocent life, so technically that is violating its civil rights and making it of lesser value.
Avoiding the word 'procreation' alert!
By Cowpunk invoking the concept of transcending nature, it is the contrary of his point because that generally means transcending sex itself, unless specific sex orgies are a means to obtain higher levels of consciousness.
Maybe kinda sorta. I'm arguing from experience. I went to a private evangelical school from grades 3 to 9. Then I went to public school for a couple of years. This wasn't that long ago. In grade 11, I switched to a homeschool program just because I was ready to be done with school, and half of the girls at the homeschool testing sight were pregnant girls I had known at the small, private, evangelical school. I can't unlearn that observation. And it's not a preconceived notion.You're making a huge assumption there, based on your preconceived notions about all of this.
Christian kids lie about premarital sex. They HAVE to. The community will never accept you having sex. Your best way out is to be dishonest for a short while and marry young. ESPECIALLY if you're also taught that masturbation is sin/fornication.I can't speak for all of those young people, but I do know a number of people who have chosen to wait, and most of them are just as horny as the next person.
How in the world do you expect an innocent 13 yo, who has nearly never "sinned" before, to have a "spiritual renewal" that will protect them from masturbation??? I was a super-nice kid, shunned by my peers for not being mean enough to the lowest person on the totem pole, and I was told I needed something like a "revival of the spirit" to not be tempted by evil forces to masturbate once I was at a normal age for sexual activity.I don't know, I can't speak for them. But I do know that it's possible to change one's lifestyle and habits. Again, I don't know how common that is apart from having a spiritual renewal.
WTF?
That is so, so evil. I can't imagine myself ever forgiving fundy christianity for that. Your doctrine made me feel like I was sorta infected by evil forces for wanting to masturbate, nevermind later not being able to resist sex. This "pure, clean, spiritually good people resist both masturbation and sex" doctrine is incredibly evil. And a 13 year old who is facing sexual temptation as their FIRST real "sin" temptation should not be told they need a "spiritual revival" or whatever. The whole idea of that is just all kinds of messed up.
That doesn't rule out you being influenced by Christian propaganda. The :Haha! Um, you couldn't be more wrong. I was a non-Christian for most of my life. Unlike many other people, I didn't come to God at an early age. I was a nonbeliever, and VERY unreligious up until the point when I finally did come to Christ, which was the biggest turning point in my life.
And btw, my life was VERY worldly. I've posted this before, but I've seen/done pretty much it all. I am still "in the world" although my worldview is of course completely different now. I am still surrounded by nonbelievers, and I am in no way unware of secular society, in fact I would say I'm probably much more aware of it than the average Christian.
"I once was lost,
but now I'm found,
Was blind,
but now I see"
...contingent seem much more vehement than the "raised in Christianity" contingent.
I can't see the distinction. Either you can give kids comprehensive sex ed, or you can do everything in your power to discourage sex with incessant messages about how not having sex is the only way to go.
Wowsa, kellyb, sorry to hear you were brought up in some really flucked up town. Here in the civilized parts of America, marrying young is generally one the dumbest thing one can do not just because it enslaves the parties involved to a mediocre sex life, but because as humans we must harness the sexual energy into other areas of life that result being creative and productive! We must transcend this level of consciousness!
Abortion is defined as the termination of a pregnancy.
Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature.... Life is either a daring adventure or nothing.
- H Keller
jojo, that doesn't change the fact an innocent child is mangled, vacuumed out and tossed in a garbage can.
My definition is correct Snouter. And because it is correct the temptation to devalue life is present. Present right here, right now.
It reinforces Jennifer Fulwilers theory actually.
Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature.... Life is either a daring adventure or nothing.
- H Keller
I'm in Memphis, one of the 50 biggest cities in the US.
The way I was raised in terms of sex, masturbation, and marriage is much more specific to religion than it is to area, I think.
Yes, fundamentalist Christianity is concentrated here, in the Bible belt. But it's far from some sort of exclusive small town phenomenon here. All throughout the South, Major Cities are dominated by fundies. I'm shamelessly "in the closet" as an atheist. It's assumed that I'm a Christian, and I'm not really in the market to disabuse anyone of that notion. Especially when my ethical standards are much more strict than the standards of my Christian counterparts.
My Christian peers think "fraud = good business." Because they believe in an "iinvisible hand".
You know how with the darkvision theme, it's black text on a dark charcoal background? It's hard to see what you're freakin typing. So I used the right-click spell correction thing, and I guess I accidentally clicked on the wrong word.
kelly, I'll get back to your posts in a bit!
And if you want it, come and get it... for crying out loud!
'cause this love that he has given you was never in doubt.
Let go of your heart, let go of your head and feel it now.
Let go of your heart, let go of your head, feel it now...
Good point, usually "transcending nature" is referring to rising above our animal instincts. He did a very sly switcheroo there, to make it fit his position.
And if you want it, come and get it... for crying out loud!
'cause this love that he has given you was never in doubt.
Let go of your heart, let go of your head and feel it now.
Let go of your heart, let go of your head, feel it now...
Šñøü†ê® (03-06-2012)
it most assuredly is, regardless of whether it is done in partial ignorance, or with complete awareness.
"We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." - Winston Churchill
lily (03-05-2012)
I disagree.
Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature.... Life is either a daring adventure or nothing.
- H Keller
fair enough.
"We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." - Winston Churchill
It's clear you had some very negative experiences with the Christian culture that was around you.
I really can't comment much on that, without knowing anything about the situation. But one thing I DO know, that's very sad, is that many people are turned away from God/Christianity because of bad experiences with people who are either cultural Christians, nominal Christians, or hardcore professed Christians who have twisted the scriptures, and who probably aren't truly of God.
I know that atheists always scoff at that, and never believe it, but it's true.
One can grow up going to church every Sunday, and have Christian parents, and not be a Christian. They will probably call themself a Christian, just as some Jews who don't even believe in God or the scriptures identify themselves as Jewish.
That is not to say that true, practicing Christians are perfect. Far from it. Everyone makes mistakes, and everyone is at a different stage in their 'journey', so to speak. Some are simply spiritually immature Christians, who make mistakes. I've done that myself, in the first 4 or 5 years after I became a believer.
Unless you're omniscient, you really should avoid making such broad-brushed statements in such a strong way.Christian kids lie about premarital sex. They HAVE to. The community will never accept you having sex. Your best way out is to be dishonest for a short while and marry young. ESPECIALLY if you're also taught that masturbation is sin/fornication.
A teen who is not truly following God but feels pressured to be a part of their surrounding "christian community" might lie, but I've had experiences that are very different than that.
I know a Christian guy and a girl, who used to be a couple, and since they were part of the missions community that I was with, that did not advocate premarital sex... guess what they did? They must've felt wrong about lying or hiding the fact that they had gotten together, so they decided to come clean and they confessed that to the leadership of that location. They ended up willingly going before the other staff, to apologize and publicly humble themselves, and accept whatever the directors decided to do about it. They did that WILLINGLY, because if someone is truly following God, you can't lie for very long, it will press on your conscience too much, and eventually you have to stop what you're doing, confess it to God, and in some cases, to others as well.
So your statement leads me to believe that either those teens weren't true (surrendered) practicing christians, or if they were, they were spiritually immature. I know that the atheists will collectively roll their eyes at that, but that's what I think.
Wow, where to begin! I don't want to jump to any conclusions, but from reading your post it seems clear that you have some very deep unresolved issues with Christianity, and your particular experiences, that come out in anger and an almost hatred.How in the world do you expect an innocent 13 yo, who has nearly never "sinned" before, to have a "spiritual renewal" that will protect them from masturbation??? I was a super-nice kid, shunned by my peers for not being mean enough to the lowest person on the totem pole, and I was told I needed something like a "revival of the spirit" to not be tempted by evil forces to masturbate once I was at a normal age for sexual activity.
WTF?
That is so, so evil. I can't imagine myself ever forgiving fundy christianity for that. Your doctrine made me feel like I was sorta infected by evil forces for wanting to masturbate, nevermind later not being able to resist sex. This "pure, clean, spiritually good people resist both masturbation and sex" doctrine is incredibly evil. And a 13 year old who is facing sexual temptation as their FIRST real "sin" temptation should not be told they need a "spiritual revival" or whatever. The whole idea of that is just all kinds of messed up.
I have no idea what you experienced, or what kind of people you were around, but now we're getting into a whole other topic here. I said in the OP that I was not going to get into the topic of religion (mine or anyone else's) and I've tried to stick with that, but you clearly have strong views, based on negative experiences. I don't know you well enough to know how much I can say to you. Some atheists are very open to discussing these things, and others get super angry and don't want to hear anything even remotely "religious" - so even though there are things I would LIKE to say to you right now, I'm hesitant to, unless you tell me it's totally OK for me to say what I want to say.
I'll bite, what propaganda? The OP didn't contain any references to scripture, I was trying to discuss all of this from the standpoint of common sense, wisdom and what sex was naturally designed for. If you disagree with anything, please show me what "propaganda" I am referencing. I came to this position on my own, based on what I can see with my own eyes, and by using my common sense, intuition and desire for truth above all else. That said, even though I have my personal beliefs, I really don't expect any non-Christians to go along with those beliefs, obviously. But what I HAVE said is that people should re-evaluate the message they've been told by society, and that there needs to be a different approach, because what we have been doing in the last few decades hasn't worked.That doesn't rule out you being influenced by Christian propaganda. The :
"I once was lost,
but now I'm found,
Was blind,
but now I see"
...contingent seem much more vehement than the "raised in Christianity" contingent.
And if you want it, come and get it... for crying out loud!
'cause this love that he has given you was never in doubt.
Let go of your heart, let go of your head and feel it now.
Let go of your heart, let go of your head, feel it now...
I'm not sure they/me were any less "Of God" than you are.I really can't comment much on that, without knowing anything about the situation. But one thing I DO know, that's very sad, is that many people are turned away from God/Christianity because of bad experiences with people who are either cultural Christians, nominal Christians, or hardcore professed Christians who have twisted the scriptures, and who probably aren't truly of God.
I was really, truly Christian. I was in a state of prayer, 24/7 for years. I prayed and fasted and did everything possible when I started suspecting that it (god) might all be in my mind. And I suspect this is an experience you can't relate with. Maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong.One can grow up going to church every Sunday, and have Christian parents, and not be a Christian. They will probably call themself a Christian, just as some Jews who don't even believe in God or the scriptures identify themselves as Jewish.
I know.That is not to say that true, practicing Christians are perfect. Far from it.
They're normal humans (imagine that!)
Yeah, I did that, too, at a mega-church, in front of god and everyone.Guess what they did? They must've felt wrong about lying or hiding the fact that they had gotten together, so they decided to come clean and they confessed that to the leadership of that location.
It didn't make me less sexually motivated and active. I thought the humiliation at least would. Biology trumped it all.
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