Society's Assumptions About Contraception, Sex and Abortion (long post ahead!)

[Sparkly Mary]

If it's harmless, there's no point. If it is harmful, allowing their idiocy to reign unchallenged makes you an enabler of evil.

I didn't say "remain unchecked", I said I don't browbeat.

See, there are times when opposing views might make more sense if they weren't embedded in vitriol from the person espousing them. I'm not perfect, in fact I'm far from it, but if a mind is to be changed, the method of planting that seed can't be to grind the person to a pulp by running them over with a combine.

Present facts, opinions, etc in a mature, adult manner and I'll listen to them. It may not change my mind, but it will make me think about what you're saying.

Call names and act like a toddler, and I'll ignore you on principal.

[Zordar]

Poophead.

[AlbertJ]

Oh, now I see why you thought I was referring to solely you (opti). Because you had stated you were personally pro-life.

No, what started that was jojo's trolling comment, "Most pro-choice people are pro-life" and then a couple of you agreed with him. And as I said, I've heard that before by others on the other side of this debate. So I was speaking to all those who have said that, I wasn't referring to your position.

It wasn't a trolling comment, Cindy.

Catholics will take you. Believe me.

I hope not. LOL

[AlbertJ]

Look, if you want people to get on board with you, you can't FORCE it on them. That never works, as you may have realized after years of debating this topic. People have to come to conclusions on their own. A different approach is needed.

Optimus is right.

Forcing ones views on people who have known you for years could cause them to suddenly consider the opposing view on the subject .

[Lulu]

poop. This seems like another abortion thread now

The info of the Netherlands is very interesting. It makes a great deal of sense to me. Sex should be taken very seriously, it isn't casual, it should be intimate, and the people should be responsible. Unfortunately, in the US we've got a lot of other societal issues that lead to teenagers having sex, being irresponsible, and even wanting to be pregnant. Their model won't fit here.

I know a guy with a 16 year old - she's probably a girl in crisis if I were to pseudo-analyze. She's 16 and has been having sex a year. Anything he says won't prevent that... her mother put her on birth control so at least she won't end up pregnant like the girl's best friend. Her parents are divorced, he feels guilty he wasn't always there, and he doesn't have a lot of structure for her. The mother is pretty much the same. I'd guess this happens all the time.

[lily]

I'd like to thank the 99.9% of sane people on this thread, for sharing your thoughts, in a mature, reasonable way. Even though we may have different beliefs and ideas on what works best, I think most of us want what is best.

As for the .001% - get help and get a life.

Lulu - ha, I know, I didn't want it to turn into that either. I don't think it has though, it was only for a few posts. And you bring up a good point that there are a lot of societal issues that make this country different than some others. It's not an easy problem.

I gotta go eat dinner, but I'll probably be back later!

[Lulu]

I guess I should add, it took me years to realize how important this all is. In my early 20's I didn't get it, but I get it now. Nothing is ever casual or just for fun and there are consequences (good and bad) for everything you do. That goes for a lot of aspects in life, but especially something as intimate as sex.

As far as the example of my friend, his decision is not perfect but it's the best one he and his ex-wife can make. When I told my boyfriend, his reaction was "why is she having sex in the first place? She shouldn't be having sex!" His daughters are younger so he doesn't have to deal with this yet. But my friend & his ex-wife have made the decision to try to minimize the consequences of this teen's actions. It's not perfect but it is what it is.

[Sparkly Mary]

I guess I should add, it took me years to realize how important this all is. In my early 20's I didn't get it, but I get it now. Nothing is ever casual or just for fun and there are consequences (good and bad) for everything you do. That goes for a lot of aspects in life, but especially something as intimate as sex.

As far as the example of my friend, his decision is not perfect but it's the best one he and his ex-wife can make. When I told my boyfriend, his reaction was "why is she having sex in the first place? She shouldn't be having sex!" His daughters are younger so he doesn't have to deal with this yet. But my friend & his ex-wife have made the decision to try to minimize the consequences of this teen's actions. It's not perfect but it is what it is.

Teenagers don't have brains that are fully formed. They look an awful lot like grown ups, but physiologically, their brains haven't formed the neo-frontal cortex which is responsible for allowing adults to think like adults.
It's why we all look back at our teenaged selves and marvel that we made it out without our parents seriously hurting us, and we see just how immature we really were.
As the mother of one grown, and one teen, they are very, Very, VERY challenging years.
There comes the point when, if they decide not to listen to what their parents try to teach, there's not much that can be done. All I can do is try to mitigate the damage whenever possible, and be there when things go wrong for them.
They think they're grown and can make reasonable, rational decisions. Sometimes they can, and then when it comes to things like sex, they have no clue just how vulnerable they are to pain like they've never felt before. It's only AFTER that pain, do they realize that there's way more to it than pregnancy and disease. It's then that they realize that Mom and Dad aren't so dumb after all.
Hopefully the consequences aren't too severe.

[Cyclone Ranger]

You disagree that abortion is either homicide or it isn't?

Of course. It could be death by misadventure.

[Sparkly Mary]

I think that's what the real issue is with teen sex. We can talk about ALL of the consequences all day long, but if teens don't want to believe we're more knowledgeable than they are, then we're just going to be perceived as preachy adults trying to run their lives.

It's how their brains work. That's a generalization I know, but the biology of brain development says they don't process information like an adult. I don't know what the answer is. I'll freely admit it.

I think preaching at them doesn't work. Teens are very self-centered creatures so the message has to be delivered in terms that a teen will see to be MORE advantageous to THEM to not have sex. We need to focus on the positives of waiting, maybe more than the negatives of not waiting. I think shows like Teen Mom that show the debacle of the relationship with "Daddy" and how that doesn't work out 99 times out of 100, and the true change to their lives does make a difference to most teen girls. It takes the romantic "We'll be together forever" out of the equation when they see the relationships crumble very quickly.

I don't know. I'm probably overly tired tonight and am not in the best place, so I may just be talking to the wind. I've been a teen mom, and I know how hard it is. I also know I'm the exception and not the rule when it comes to success after teen parenting.

[Lulu]

It's the same reason why teens drink and drive. They think they are invincible. A strong foundation and family unit helps, but it doesn't answer everything. A good friend in high school who was Morman who came from a very tight knit, wealthy family got pregnant when she was a junior in high school. Despite everything her parents had taught her and given her, she was attracted to the bad boy football guy who apparently didn't like condoms.

[kellyb]

It's the same reason why teens drink and drive. They think they are invincible. A strong foundation and family unit helps, but it doesn't answer everything. A good friend in high school who was Morman who came from a very tight knit, wealthy family got pregnant when she was a junior in high school. Despite everything her parents had taught her and given her, she was attracted to the bad boy football guy who apparently didn't like condoms.

I just got sick of school at age 15/16 and enrolled myself in homeschool. At the homeschool test site, most of the girls there were pregnant and transfers from the evangelical school.

I know it's a cliche that only poor girls get pregnant, but IME, that's backwards. Wealthy Evangelical girls get pregnant at a much higher rate than girls raised secular. And I've never encountered any data that conflicts with my anecdata.

[lily]

I just got sick of school at age 15/16 and enrolled myself in homeschool. At the homeschool test site, most of the girls there were pregnant and transfers from the evangelical school.

I know it's a cliche that only poor girls get pregnant, but IME, that's backwards. Wealthy Evangelical girls get pregnant at a much higher rate than girls raised secular. And I've never encountered any data that conflicts with my anecdata.

It sounds like your anti-Christian bias is rearing it's head again. That may be your experience, but most studies show that income and education are big factors when it comes to teen pregnancy. And contrary to what you said, lower income and lower educated, not the other way around.

Research on teenage pregnancy risk factors indicates that there are a variety of environmental factors that are strongly correlated to increased rates of teen pregnancy. For example, there is a strong correlation between teen pregnancy and the neighborhood in which the teens live. Teens who live in neighborhoods with high levels of poverty, low levels of education and high residential turnover are at higher risk for teen pregnancy. Family is also a strong indicator of the likelihood of teen pregnancy. Typically, teens who come from poor, less educated, single-parent families are at a greater risk for pregnancy. source)

Also, I would need to do more research on this, but it appears that race is a factor. Although pregnancy rates have gone down among blacks, so that is good news. In fact, they have gone down among all teens, although it's still a little higher among Hispanics and blacks according to the stats I've been seeing.

Teen Births

and as far as having sex goes:

Overall, the prevalence of having ever had sexual intercourse was higher among black (65.2%) and Hispanic (49.1%) than white (42.0%) students;

Overall, the prevalence of having had sexual intercourse with four or more persons was higher among black (28.6%) and Hispanic (14.2%) than white (10.5%) students (from a cdc report)

I don't think that's a "cliche" - it's well established that economics and culture play a big part. If one comes from a culture where it's common to be a teen mom, the cycle just repeats itself.

Numerous studies show that kids that grow up without a father have more problems in general. Of course that is not always the case, but it definitely shows up, not just with teen pregnancy but other social problems as well.

For example, teenagers living in single-parent households are one and a half to two times more likely to become teenage parents than those in two-parent families (Zill and Nord 1994) (source)

Clearly, there are a lot of factors going on at the same time.

As for the "evangelical" girls you knew...Again, there's a big difference between cultural Christianity and true committed Christianity. We went over this before. Christians aren't perfect, but someone who is truly following Christ is not going to be doing all the same things that everyone else does. Either that, or as I said, they're very spiritually young/immature.

[Šñøü†ê®]

Indeed kellyb's hometown is quite bizarre and pretty much the opposite of American cities as far as birthrates. Even the concept of "wealthy Evangelicals" alone is relatively unknown.

[kellyb]

It sounds like your anti-Christian bias is rearing it's head again. That may be your experience, but most studies show that income and education are big factors when it comes to teen pregnancy. And contrary to what you said, lower income and lower educated, not the other way around.

Research on teenage pregnancy risk factors indicates that there are a variety of environmental factors that are strongly correlated to increased rates of teen pregnancy. For example, there is a strong correlation between teen pregnancy and the neighborhood in which the teens live. Teens who live in neighborhoods with high levels of poverty, low levels of education and high residential turnover are at higher risk for teen pregnancy. Family is also a strong indicator of the likelihood of teen pregnancy. Typically, teens who come from poor, less educated, single-parent families are at a greater risk for pregnancy. source)

Also, I would need to do more research on this, but it appears that race is a factor. Although pregnancy rates have gone down among blacks, so that is good news. In fact, they have gone down among all teens, although it's still a little higher among Hispanics and blacks according to the stats I've been seeing.

Teen Births

and as far as having sex goes:

Overall, the prevalence of having ever had sexual intercourse was higher among black (65.2%) and Hispanic (49.1%) than white (42.0%) students;

Overall, the prevalence of having had sexual intercourse with four or more persons was higher among black (28.6%) and Hispanic (14.2%) than white (10.5%) students (from a cdc report)

I don't think that's a "cliche" - it's well established that economics and culture play a big part. If one comes from a culture where it's common to be a teen mom, the cycle just repeats itself.

Numerous studies show that kids that grow up without a father have more problems in general. Of course that is not always the case, but it definitely shows up, not just with teen pregnancy but other social problems as well.

For example, teenagers living in single-parent households are one and a half to two times more likely to become teenage parents than those in two-parent families (Zill and Nord 1994) (source)

Clearly, there are a lot of factors going on at the same time.

As for the "evangelical" girls you knew...Again, there's a big difference between cultural Christianity and true committed Christianity. We went over this before. Christians aren't perfect, but someone who is truly following Christ is not going to be doing all the same things that everyone else does. Either that, or as I said, they're very spiritually young/immature.

Interesting data. I know you think it's a slam dunk for your culture, but what I mostly see is that the differences between races and cultures are relatively small.

[lily]

^ There are a lot of factors. I actually agree with you about race - even though it appears that way, I think it may be more related to economic and cultural factors - for example, when there is less emphasis on the importance of education, there seems to be a higher rate among those groups. Asians highly value education, and they apparently don't have as many teen pregnancies.

Btw, I don't really think of myself as part of a "culture"... I know that might sound strange. I do identify myself as a Christian, of course, but I don't think of it as a club or something like that. Eh, I'm probably not explaining myself well. I'm off now. See you guys!

[kellyb]

^ There are a lot of factors. I actually agree with you about race - even though it appears that way, I think it may be more related to economic and cultural factors - for example, when there is less emphasis on the importance of education, there seems to be a higher rate among those groups. Asians highly value education, and they apparently don't have as many teen pregnancies.

Btw, I don't really think of myself as part of a "culture"... I know that might sound strange. I do identify myself as a Christian, of course, but I don't think of it as a club or something like that. Eh, I'm probably not explaining myself well. I'm off now. See you guys!

No, you're not explaing yourself at all.

[Šñøü†ê®]

kellyb, the town where all these broads you knew were knocked up, were there any CVS pharmacies around? In America, generally speaking, welfare folks living in government subsidized housing projects get preggie for the increase in government cash. The "wealthy" or more accurately the folks paying the taxes that pay for the welfare folks gettin' preggie, generally seek a college education before they ball and chain a dude.

[coolfun]

I think we should all have orgies like the ones in my site and not bother do anything of the above mentioned

[kellyb]

In America, generally speaking, welfare folks living in government subsidized housing projects get preggie for the increase in government cash.

What increase in gov cash? They get more cash under what program?

We have almost 3 million kids in the US living in households where people live on $2 a day or less.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...ase/53227386/1
Someone should tell those people about all the gov cash they can get.