Some of the things I'm going to bring up will be extremely unpopular. I know that many here will have a knee-jerk negative reaction, and some won't even want to listen, they'll reject anything I say before they even think about it, because it's so far from their current worldview. But if you value truth above all else, you will not shut yourself off to opposing points of view, out of stubbornness, pride, misguided partisanship, or anything else. I hope you'll agree that the most important thing is to always put truth first.
There has been a lot of talk recently about contraception, sexuality, "reproductive health" and all the issues that go along with those things.
I've been reading comments from all sides. And when I read the comments by those who strongly believe that more "safe sex" is the key to all the problems, and abortion-on-demand should always be available, sometimes it's frustrating to me and I'll explain why. I completely understand where they're coming from, and I don't even fault them for having that position. I get it. But when I look at society, and see things like: 1 in 4 teen girls has an STD, the amount of teen pregnancies, the death toll of abortion, women who have experienced emotional hurt or trauma, the devaluing of human life... there seems to be a sort of mass blindness, or state of denial going on. And I believe we need to take a different approach, individually and as a society. I think that for a number of decades, society has been lied to and conditioned to think a certain way, even if sometimes those doing the misleading don't even realize it. This lie (which I will get to) is a big part of the reason why many who support abortion feel that it absolutely MUST be legal.
The good news is, there is an answer, and that answer is clear to me now, after years of it being lost on me. The problem is, the solution necessitates a huge paradigm shift, or complete overhaul of person's mindset. And here's the frustrating part: because of that, many will reject it immediately, or attack it for the reasons I listed in the first paragraph.
So what on earth am I getting at here? The societal lie that has taken place is the portrayal of sex (to quote Jennifer Fulwiler) as "only about the personal fulfillment of the people involved" and that "it's perfectly possible to sever human sexuality from its life-giving potential."
The message from society about sex is incomplete and very misleading. Even though we hear a lot about "safe sex," the unspoken message has been that sex is not a big deal, it doesn't matter if you're nowhere near ready to have a baby, go ahead and have sex, as long as you're "safe!"
This was not always the case - in the past, in almost all societies, people never forgot that sex was the act that brings about human life. But since the advent of contraception, young people have been sort of brainwashed into a fundamental misunderstanding of the actual nature of sex.
Now here is where I know a bunch of people will quickly shout out, "But sex is about more than procreation!" I AGREE WITH YOU. I was in no way claiming that sex is only about procreation. Even hardcore Catholics who disagree with artificial contraception agree that sex is about more than procreation. And don't worry, I am not going to get into my (or any) specific religious view, this doesn't have to be about religion at all. It's simply about getting to the actual truth, when it comes to sex, and the consequences of casual sex.
So here's where the debate is. Does it work for society to sever the procreative aspect of sex from the act itself? I think the big pink elephant in the room that no one wants to notice is that it simply doesn't work, in the long run. Especially if we're talking about young, single people who are far more fertile and less responsible than older, more mature couples.
As Jennifer Fulwiler put it, in her excellent essay, "How I went from pro-choice to pro-life" - It's akin to saying, "You can use loaded guns for toys, as long as you put blanks in the chamber." This is a set-up for disaster, and that sums up the problem here. It becomes a game of Russian Roulette, when you ignore nature and encourage a misportrayal of the true nature of sex.
This mentality that has been fostered inevitably leads to a very unfortunate response, when things DO go wrong. The baby - which should be considered something positive, a blessing, becomes "the enemy." Why, because of how it unexpectedly shows up and spoils all the fun. And what do we do with the enemy? We dehumanize it, and that is exactly what the 'abortion-on-demand' crowd does - they dehumanize the preborn, in order to justify snuffing out that new life.
I don't want to turn this into another abortion debate, but I do want to say that I think the acceptance of abortion and the devaluing of human life is a RESULT of this lie that has been promoted that sex is only about pleasure and bonding and its life-giving potential can be completely separate.
This is something that Jennifer Fulwiler explains in an audio of an excellent speech on this topic, that I'm going to post a link to. Please take the time to listen to the whole thing. It's about 25 minutes long, but it is VERY interesting and she goes over all of this in an intelligent and articulate way.
She states (and I agree) that because our generation was conditioned to believe this big lie - in our minds, abortion HAD TO BE OK. Why? Because it would be unfair to make women deal with life-changing consequences, for an act that they had been told did not have life-changing consequences. Abortion, then, becomes the only thing that stands between women becoming slaves to their biology.
Interestingly, what she says in that speech resonated with me, because I too was on the other side of this issue, for the same reasons that she was - it was what we were taught, or indoctrinated with. And since my position on abortion (and my entire worldview) changed, I already knew, on some level, what she was saying, but I had never heard it all put together in such a clear, articulate way.
Another point she makes is that this big lie or conditioning causes young, unmarried people to think of pregnancy as similar to being struck by lightning. Something that happens out of the blue, whether you want it or not. It's almost like they completely forget that the act of sex is the act that (from the standpoint of nature) brings new life. And since they had been taught that "safe sex" is the key, they feel shocked and betrayed when suddenly they find themselves pregnant, and way too young and immature to have a baby.
On that point, I'm going to post an excerpt from an article by a different person on this same subject, in regard to this "How did this happen to me?" mentality that comes from society's dishonest message about sex.
The natural end of sex is both unity and procreation. Love and life. Shocking, but true. If this is denied, and it is claimed that sex is solely about making babies, then you’re a jerk in the vein of Henry VIII, and a Puritan besides. If, on the other hand, it is claimed that sex is solely about pleasure, one must contend with the shocking fact of what — precisely — leaves a man and enters a woman.
To argue otherwise is to look at a farmer casting seeds upon fertile ground and claim that he is casting the seed for the pure joy of seed-casting. This is not to say there is no joy, even a wild joy, to be found in planting a field. It is simply to note that it would be an insane man who would plant his field by the logic that throwing seeds is fun, and then become shocked and annoyed when his field bore grain in due season.
Every part of the action of sex speaks to the creation of new life. Yet regard the reaction of modern man, who plants his seed on fertile ground, and the modern woman, who receives that seed…okay, wait, gimme a sec…[image posted here] and then — upon being confronted with new life — cry “How did this happen?” or “I can’t believe this happened to me!” and in fear kill the new life they have created. In the midst of a world of insane farmers, I hold this truth to be self-evident: The natural end of sex is both unity (pleasure) and procreation (babies) and these things are inseparably intertwined.
Getting back to Fulwiler's essay... Another point she makes is that society has always had two "lists." 1) Acceptable conditions for having a baby, and 2) Acceptable conditions for becoming sexually active. In the past, and in all different cultures, those two lists have always matched. Only since the introduction of contraception have those two lists diverged, and now they don't match at all, they are two completely different lists.
To give an example, the lists look something like this...
Conditions under which its acceptable to have a baby:
- Have money or the ability to raise the baby.
- If you think you'd be a good parent
- If your partner would be a good parent.
- Being ready for lack of sleep, diaper changes, midnight wakings, car seats, etc, etc.
Conditions under which its acceptable to have sex:
- Have access to contraception
- Feel emotionally ready
- Been checked for STD's
The lists don't match. And her final conclusion is that UNTIL those lists match again, we will continue to have abortion and all the problems this lie brings about.
Now the link the the audio of this essay:
How I went from pro-choice to pro-life (PLEASE listen to the whole audio on this page, it is excellent!)
Note: I don't necessarily agree with everything she says, or the position of the Catholic church. (I'm not even Catholic, and I definitely disagree with them on a number of issues.) But I have come to the conclusion that young people have been lied to and misled about the true nature of sex. And I agree with Jennifer Fulwiler's conclusion that until those lists match, and until we begin being honest with ourselves and others, things will not get better.
Last edited by lily; 03-05-2012 at 01:33 AM.
And if you want it, come and get it... for crying out loud!
'cause this love that he has given you was never in doubt.
Let go of your heart, let go of your head and feel it now.
Let go of your heart, let go of your head, feel it now...
I don't hate you for your POV but I think you're almost 100% wrong.
I'm married. 34 years old, and I've been with the same guy exclusively since I was 17. I was raised to think premarital sex was wrong, abortion was wrong, and to be rightfully scared of pregnancy. And I had premarital sex because I just couldn't help myself as a mid-teen.
Also, I have 2 kids (the oldest born 5 years after marriage), and when I had a pregnancy scare over a third, I was going to get an abortion (the only time in my life I've had a suspected unwanted pregnancy). Because even though I'm in a stable, married, loving relationship, we can't afford another kid.
This:
...Doesn't hold true for me, anyone I know, or even anyone I've ever talked to. Everyone I've ever met knows even "safe" sex isn't 100%, especially married people I know.I don't want to turn this into another abortion debate, but I do want to say that I think the acceptance of abortion and the devaluing of human life is a RESULT of this lie that has been promoted that sex is only about pleasure and bonding and its life-giving potential can be completely separate.
Last edited by kellyb; 03-05-2012 at 01:45 AM.
GanjaFreebird (03-08-2012)
Ok, on this:
How does that work for married people? Even married people shouldn't have sex unless they also want/can afford another baby?To give an example, the lists look something like this...
Conditions under which its acceptable to have a baby:
Have money or the ability to raise the baby.
If you think you'd be a good parent
If your partner would be a good parent.
Being ready for lack of sleep, diaper changes, midnight wakings, car seats, etc, etc.
Conditions under which its acceptable to have sex:
Have access to contraception
Feel emotionally ready
Been checked for STD's
The lists don't match. And her final conclusion is that UNTIL those lists match again, we will continue to have abortion and all the problems this lie brings about.
GanjaFreebird (03-08-2012)
Well, first of all your situation is very different than most people. Most people don't marry the same person they were with since the age of 17. Therefore, most young people - especially in their 20's before they get married - have more than one partner, and have bought into the "as long as i'm practicing safe sex, there's no problem!" lie.Originally Posted by kellyb
I'm not suggesting that people abstain until they're married (although that IS what I personally believe). I'm just saying that the current teaching (or conditioning) about sex is incomplete, at best... and blatantly dishonest at worst. And if people are going to do it, they need to face the consequences. I don't consider abortion "facing the consequences."
Well, it's not something that people state openly - and many people probably don't even realize that that's the reason they dehumanize the preborn. But that IS what people do with the enemy. Dehumanize it, I see it all the time. It sounds like you're for abortion... I'm totally on the other side, and like I said, I don't want this to turn into an abortion thread (maybe we can debate it another time) but I do think that it makes sense that many women who were on the receiving end of the lie feel that abortion MUST be OK, because they were taught that premarital sex is OK and no big deal.Also, I have 2 kids (the oldest born 5 years after marriage), and when I had a pregnancy scare over a third, I was going to get an abortion (the only time in my life I've had a suspected unwanted pregnancy). Because even though I'm in a stable, married, loving relationship, we can't afford another kid.
This:
...Doesn't hold true for me, anyone I know, or even anyone I've ever talked to. Everyone I've ever met knows even "safe" sex isn't 100%, especially married people I know.
Your situation was different, maybe that's why you can't understand that.
And if you want it, come and get it... for crying out loud!
'cause this love that he has given you was never in doubt.
Let go of your heart, let go of your head and feel it now.
Let go of your heart, let go of your head, feel it now...
I just don't think most females are taught anything like "premarital sex is ok, so abortion MUST be ok."Your situation was different, maybe that's why you can't understand that.
When it comes to sex, contraception, abortion, etc, I think "premarital" problems are much less frequent than sex and wanting to not have a(nother) baby WITHIN marriage. Most fertile women can get pregnant once every year or two for decades. The fertile premarital era for many or most women's lives is relatively short.
we re all slaves to our biology-its a crying shame that my being fat keeps me from entering the marathon
tired of your extremism
optimus (03-05-2012)
No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm not against contraception or birth control completely, I just don't agree with relying on it as "the answer" and then falling back on abortion when something goes wrong. Married couples are in a very different and better situation, when it comes to planning these things and talking about birth control. I don't know the exact numbers off the top of my head, but most people who have abortions are unmarried. Married couples (from what I've seen) usually go ahead and have the baby, even if it was unplanned. Also, there's always adoption, if someone gets pregnant and doesn't want another baby.
What I said was that they were taught that premarital sex is OK and no big deal, therefore, IN THEIR MIND, they figure abortion MUST be OK, because it is the only thing that stands between them and the unthinkable.I just don't think most females are taught anything like "premarital sex is ok, so abortion MUST be ok."
You should listen to that audio I posted a link to. She goes over it, and probably explains it better.
If I'm understanding you correctly (I had to read that a few times, I wasn't sure what you were trying to say at first) you're saying the window of time that women have those premarital problems is less, so the problem isn't there as much as within marriages? Maybe, for some. But I was focusing more on singles.When it comes to sex, contraception, abortion, etc, I think "premarital" problems are much less frequent than sex and wanting to not have a(nother) baby WITHIN marriage. Most fertile women can get pregnant once every year or two for decades. The fertile premarital era for many or most women's lives is relatively short.
I'm not as worried about married couples as I am about young women going through the pain and life-changing things that can happen, due to the lie and conditioning about sex, "safe-sex", etc.
Last edited by lily; 03-05-2012 at 02:28 AM.
And if you want it, come and get it... for crying out loud!
'cause this love that he has given you was never in doubt.
Let go of your heart, let go of your head and feel it now.
Let go of your heart, let go of your head, feel it now...
Any thoughts about the main points of my post? I would think you, of all people, would be mostly in agreement with me.
And if you want it, come and get it... for crying out loud!
'cause this love that he has given you was never in doubt.
Let go of your heart, let go of your head and feel it now.
Let go of your heart, let go of your head, feel it now...
I still don't think young people are nearly as clueless, misled, indoctrinated, etc about the nature of sex and procreation as you seem to think they are. And I don't understand the exclusive focus on premarital sex. Unplanned and unwanted babies and pregnancies are problematic all around.
I think it would be nice if the primary problem was just that young people are brainwashed into not understanding the gravity of sex and pregnancy, but I don't think that's what's up. I wish it was. Education could fix that. But education can't fix biological instincts, so I think we're left with a much more difficult situation to deal with, unfortunately.
I think all one has to do is look at the amount of STDs (1 in 4 teen girls have an STD, and 1 in 4 college students, although that might be higher now) and the amount of abortions and unplanned pregancies - to come to the conclusion that the message they are getting from society is misleading, or wrong.
Of course it's true that they hear "contraception is not 100% effective." But you know how people can hear something and believe it on an intellectual level, but it doesn't REALLY sink in, on a deeper level?
Sex is simply not portrayed (by secular society) as the act that makes babies..or an act that should be with someone you are committed to and trust. It's portrayed as just a normal, recreational thing that everyone does, and the focus is more on bonding and pleasure.
And the message has been that it CAN be severed from it's life-giving potential.
That's what the problem is, it just doesn't work.
How can you say that, look around at TV, movies, advertising, everywhere you look, the message doesn't include the gravity of sex and pregnancy... it's all about pleasure, fun, etc. Don't get me wrong, obviously sex IS fun and pleasurable.... but the message from society is to separate it from the procreative aspect of sex. They're 2 completely separate things. That message hasn't been working out very well, has it?I think it would be nice if the primary problem was just that young people are brainwashed into not understanding the gravity of sex and pregnancy, but I don't think that's what's up. I wish it was. Education could fix that. But education can't fix biological instincts, so I think we're left with a much more difficult situation to deal with, unfortunately.
Last edited by lily; 03-05-2012 at 03:05 AM.
And if you want it, come and get it... for crying out loud!
'cause this love that he has given you was never in doubt.
Let go of your heart, let go of your head and feel it now.
Let go of your heart, let go of your head, feel it now...
Why would unplanned pregnancies be an issue for a married couple? The economics of a family and a home make it pretty easy to add more.
Fat girls need love too, FM.
GanjaFreebird (03-08-2012), optimus (03-05-2012)
The mental and developmental preparation to raise a child is about more than just having an empty room and a few bucks for Maypo.
As someone who isn't a parent, much less has ever been married, I don't expect you to understand the complexities a pregnancy puts into a relationship.
Pregnancy, even when planned, is hard on a relationship. Pregnancy in a marriage that's less than stable is brutal on the relationship. I know so many couples who've been in a bad place in their marriage and thought a baby (or another baby) would fix things and bring them closer. Every one of those couples is now divorced.
Then add in the stress of a new baby, the sleep deprivation, the enormous changes that come when a couple changes into a family, and then a family with more than one child, and it's hard. It's very hard, especially if both parents have to work outside of the home.
Until you've been married and have children, please don't oversimplify a very complicated dynamic.
***2009 DA Rookie of the Year***
I will chime in to add for those who will inevitably say "kids are always going to do it and telling them not to doesn't work", that yes it does. It was not long ago that smoking was considered cool, and the cool kids started smoking at a young age. Today, teen smoking is down significantly from a few decades ago. What changed? Society's opinion of smoking changed. Smokers became pariahs, relegated to small areas well away from the rest of society. Smoking paraphenalia was placed further and further out of the reach of young people. It became illegal to purchase tobacco products for kids, and so on. It didn't happen overnight, but it happened. In addition, it was not that long ago that guys didn't expect a girl to put out right away, and most girls didn't. Now, it seems to be expected, that there's something wrong if you have date someone and don't have sex by the third or fourth date. What changed? Society's opinion of fornication changed.
No one is saying that ALL teenagers can be simply told not to have sex and they won't, but it's obvious that society DOES have a powerful voice when it comes to teenage behavior.
The ambassador died, Obama lied.
lily (03-05-2012)
You're never really ready to have children. You just adjust to a little tyrant who has landed in your midst. Completely selfish, completely helpless, completely demanding. You can never completely prepare emotionally for something like that. They are pretty cool though.
The ambassador died, Obama lied.
Cyclone Ranger (03-05-2012)
Having had 4, I agree that they're pretty cool, BUT, they can and often do change the dynamic between mom and dad, and Sounter's response was overly simplistic which is understandable given his lack of experience. I mean everyone is the perfect parent until they have their first child.
***2009 DA Rookie of the Year***
Not necessarily. Babies aren't that expensive and don't take up a lot of room, but as they get a bit older, they get increasingly expensive (nevermind health insurance, saving for college, etc). It's also impossible to fit 2 adults and 3 kids in most cars safely if 2 are in carseats. There are also issues with boys and girls sharing bedrooms if you only have a couple of rooms in your house.
I agree that societal expectations have an effect, but the sex drive is not like smoking. And I don't think "Now, it seems to be expected, that there's something wrong if you have date someone and don't have sex by the third or fourth date." I was a teenager 15 years ago, and I never met anyone who looked at it like that.(and I even hung out with a kinda rough crowd!)
Is there evidence things have changed since the late 90's?
the OP is excellent. though, i would add one important point. as a society, we HAVE allowed ourselves to be fooled into having an awfully skewed view of sexuality, but that's the real point.....WE have been complicit. human nature naturally does not gravitate toward happily bearing the responsibility for, or consequences of our behavior. we want to live consequence-free. so, though there certainly has been a concerted effort to mislead new generations about the true, intended nature of sex, we have, and continue to happily play along in pretending that the whole picture is being presented in regard to it. in other words, we are content to live in a fantasy world if it frees us from having to worry about consequences. and when, in the midst of living out this fantasy, we are occasionally confronted with the natural consequences of our behavior(though they never went away really), as a society, we now gladly allow ourselves to be painted as being victimized by tragic circumstance, and we allow the consequences to be painted as evil, or the enemy...i.e. a child, or an STD. it's all a grand charade. the sad part is that when someone, in whatever way, attempts to right the ship, and collectively bring us back to reality, they are painted at best as naive and misinformed, or at worst, as an intolerant bigot or misogynist.
the biggest lesson that can be learned, is that people, by nature, don't like to be held to account. not by god, not by their parents, not by friends....not by anyone.
"We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." - Winston Churchill
lily (03-05-2012)
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