Can any Government Be Trusted?

[hadit]

That's a sophism. Cubans might (or might not) be able to leave their country, but you certainly can leave yours if you don't wish to abide by our social contract.

See, now you're narrowing it down. You made it sound so easy, too. If you don't like the way a country's run, just hop on a plane and try somewhere else. It ain't that easy. I can join a co-op and leave it with no more impact than the fees to be a part of it. That's the nature of voluntary, after all. Leaving the country may not even be possible under some circumstances, and would certainly involve a LOT more than just ending a contract.

[Cyclone Ranger]

It is that easy. America: love it or leave it.

[86Dùde]

The first thing a fascist state does is try to keep it's people in when the doors fly off. I'm sure they'll let you slither back to Israel though.

[9ball8]

Generally speaking, taking an opponent's point to an extreme is not a sound debate tactic. The question on the table is, "can any government be trusted?". My position is no, it cannot, because of the nature of power and corruption. It therefore needs to be very carefully granted power, with the understanding that once granted, it becomes impossible to take back. No institution should be able to operate without any checks on its power. That has nothing to do with anarchy, as no one has advocated the elimination of government entirely.

Yeah, just elimination of gov't regulation on business. See F&L's posts on letting the courts clean up any mess after the fact, rather than impose significant preventive regulations on the business sector. That's like saying we should let the courts impose fines and prison sentences after chaos takes it's course at traffic intersections, rather than place stop lights to prevent accidents. And it is not impossible to take back gov't power or entitlements. See 'welfare reform, Clinton administration' for just one example.

[9ball8]

It is that easy. America: love it or leave it.

If not practical for lack of money and/or ability with a foreign language, there is another alternative. Change your gov't. It can be done. It starts with a painful but necessary first step for the common citizen: change at least one hour per week that one currently devotes to watching crappy re-runs on TV. Instead, get involved in the political process. Primaries, reading up on who votes for what, etc.

Or continue to ignore that boring shit and enjoy your favorite electronic pablum. Any double-plus good leader will ensure fun shows on the tely for our entertainment, after all.

[Freedom&Liberty]

Yeah, just elimination of gov't regulation on business. See F&L's posts on letting the courts clean up any mess after the fact, rather than impose significant preventive regulations on the business sector. That's like saying we should let the courts impose fines and prison sentences after chaos takes it's course at traffic intersections, rather than place stop lights to prevent accidents. And it is not impossible to take back gov't power or entitlements. See 'welfare reform, Clinton administration' for just one example.

Consumers are the traffic cops of business. Why punish an entire sector over the actions of one or even a few? It's not good for consumers, it doesn't encourage start ups, it's not conducive to a free market and it creates an even larger government. We've had enough liberal paranoia..

[302Riz]

It is that easy. America: love it or leave it.

If that were true, we wouldn't be having this conversation. People didn't like America the way it was, so they didn't leave it. That wasn't good enough for them to do. What they did was try to make America into something it was not, and now we all all suffering for it.

The country is dying at an increasing pace and people don't seem to care much. People are convinced that we need more government to solve the problems that were caused by the government to begin with.

To.answer the original question, no government should be trusted. The question is why should people trust the government?

[Šñøü†ê®]

The first thing a fascist state does is try to keep it's people in when the doors fly off. I'm sure they'll let you slither back to Israel though.

I would not be surprised if our little mossad agent Cowpunk is there right now actually. Tons of them had assignments to convince everyone that fighting the zionist regime's wars are for oil, okay with gas at $4 that makes no sense...a threat to the dollar? ... no...to stop all the Hitlers that keep emerging, no...to stop WMD,...oh, they already used that...uh, because evansatanicals say that those who bless zionists will rewarded just like jihadis will be rewarded, except no virgins...no not that, uh because the US will be attacked by arabs on magic carpets...

[Cyclone Ranger]

No one is keeping you here. Drive your tractor up to Canada, and the Canucks will be happy to greet you.

[Šñøü†ê®]

R U TALKIN' TO ME, NEEGAH! I support green energy so I could ride a bicycle up there I guess! Are there any areas with a high density of single, ripe Ukrainian broads in Canada?

[Cyclone Ranger]

I'm sorry. You'll need to translate that from gibberish to English.

[hadit]

It is that easy. America: love it or leave it.

Or fight to change it. There, I fixed it for you. And, you're still ignoring the reality that a voluntary co-op is not comparable to a government mandate.

[hadit]

Yeah, just elimination of gov't regulation on business. See F&L's posts on letting the courts clean up any mess after the fact, rather than impose significant preventive regulations on the business sector. That's like saying we should let the courts impose fines and prison sentences after chaos takes it's course at traffic intersections, rather than place stop lights to prevent accidents. And it is not impossible to take back gov't power or entitlements. See 'welfare reform, Clinton administration' for just one example.

Welfare reform didn't in any way reduce or eliminate government power. All that's required to put things right back where they were is a different congress and a different president. Notice I'm ignoring entitlements, because you brought them in, not me.

[Cyclone Ranger]

Or fight to change it. There, I fixed it for you. And, you're still ignoring the reality that a voluntary co-op is not comparable to a government mandate.

I don't agree. You can choose to not live in either a co-op or a country

[86Dùde]

Not Cowpunk has a curious interest in my tractor.

[Cyclone Ranger]

I have a curious interest in your curious interest in your tractor.

[86Dùde]

Seemingly yes. Kind of a citzen Kane, Rosebud, sort of deal. The last thought that goes through that head of yours will be about meh tractor!

[Cyclone Ranger]

No, I have my own Rosebud.

[9ball8]

Welfare reform didn't in any way reduce or eliminate government power. All that's required to put things right back where they were is a different congress and a different president. Notice I'm ignoring entitlements, because you brought them in, not me.

On the contrary, welfare reform reduced gov't power. Less money, fewer gov't functionaries, fewer administrators, less power. Note that not engaging in foreign adventures -wars- also reduces gov't power. That is also diminishing, and it's about time. The reason consumers of gov't -AKA citizens- have been reluctant to go back to the 1928 Republican platform of too little regulation: because too many of us know what happened soon after that election.

[hadit]

On the contrary, welfare reform reduced gov't power. Less money, fewer gov't functionaries, fewer administrators, less power.

Actually, that's a good point. It DID reduce the exercise of government power. It did not, however, prevent government from exercising that power again in the future.

Note that not engaging in foreign adventures -wars- also reduces gov't power. That is also diminishing, and it's about time.

I don't see that happening. We traded Iraq for Libya, and Iran is next in line.

The reason consumers of gov't -AKA citizens- have been reluctant to go back to the 1928 Republican platform of too little regulation: because too many of us know what happened soon after that election.

There's too little regulation, and there's too much regulation. Basically, government never leaves things where they are, and generally adds regulation with every legislative cycle. That means that periodically we have to pull the reins in a bit and cut back.