Ron Paul gets booed for advocating the Golden Rule. Wow.

[AlbertJ]

This is what I've been trying to say here, over and over. But now here's a clear-cut example, of how we have departed from basic Christian principles in our foreign policy, and some are cheering this on!

At the debate tonight in South Carolina, Paul advocated the Golden Rule, in how we treat other nations. In a state where (I'm assuming) there are many so called christians and conservatives, he got booed for that. This is scary to me. Strangely, a minute later he got cheers when he said we don't need another war, but maybe those were from the more sane people.




Of course, people are talking about this on twitter and youtube. And of course, Christians are looking bad, although who knows if those people who booed were Christians. I hope they weren't.

Here are some tweets from tonight:

golden rule = BOO! murder people = YAY! i refuse to accept mainstream reality of pro-life killers. I substitute my own where freedom reigns

At tonight's Republican debate, Ron Paul said we should have a foreign policy based on the Golden Rule. He got booed. We are in DEEP trouble

How can anyone boo the golden rule? That's like booing someone for not wanting war... oh wait. #EndTheWars

Crowd is booing Ron Paul's invocation of the golden rule. Mighty Christian of you folks. #SCDebate

The Golden Rule gets boo'd at #SCDebate. Heck no, Ron Paul! We don't like that kind of humanity. We only teach that to our kids for giggles!

A room full of "Christians" boos the Golden Rule. - Ric Stewart

I'm scared. The Fox debate audience just booed Ron Paul proposing that we apply the golden rule.

Dear Rick Perry, the "Golden Rule" was different than peeing on your enemies corpses. #scdebate

Oh my God. Ron Paul just got a room full of Christians to boo the Golden Rule. YOU CAN'T MAKE THIS STUFF UP. #SCDebate

Yeah, let's boo the golden rule. Phony Christians... #SCDebate

How can people boo the Golden Rule? It might be the 1 thing all *decent* people can agree on. We teach it to our kids. http://bit.ly/AuA7FE

South Carolina booos when the golden rule is brought up? This is why I have no faith in America......

NEW RULE: If you boo when someone says foreign policy should be guided by Golden Rule, you can't say America's a Christian nation anymore.

It goes on and on....

Satanic neo-confederate horse shit.

Shame on you Miss Buttercup.

[caddis]

Ron Paul fails in the fact that we are not bombing other countries indiscriminately. He can have his golden rule if America starts doing things such as harboring international terrorist groups or begins using WMDs on its own citizens.

He was bood and deserved it for placing us on the same level as those we oppose

[Notalibtard]

I give up on Ron P.

[Šñøü†ê®]

He was bood and deserved it for placing us on the same level as those we oppose

Who is "we" and who do "we" oppose and why?

[caddis]

Who is "we" and who do "we" oppose and why?

I think it's appropriate I should answer your questions with my own:


"So I would say that maybe we ought to consider a 'Golden Rule' in foreign policy. Don't do to other nations what we don't want to have them do to us,...

We endlessly bomb these countries and then we wonder why they get upset with us,"

What countries do we bomb endlessly, and why do we bomb them?

[Guido]

Lily: What you refer to as the "Golden Rule" is called in political discourse "moral equivalence," and it's considered taboo to even mention, much less discuss.

Moral equivalence simply means that "our" actions are judged according to the same moral standards as "their" actions. It is the most fundamental of all Judeo-Christian moral principles, in fact, the principle on which all other moral principles are based.

Yet, in mainstream political discourse it is considered not just wrong, but beyond the pale, a scandal.

The reason is: our political culture is dominated by moralism, as a substitute for morality.

"Moralism" is the application of moral maxims to others while excluding oneself; moralism IS the absence of morality.

[Guido]

Any politician who doesn't accept the basic idea of "American Exceptionalism" is considered beyond the pale -- an extremist and a nutcase.

Basically, American Exceptionalism means: The Golden Rule doesn't apply.

In contemporary American political culture, adherence to the most fundamental and traditional principles of Judea-Christian morality is considered extremism, if not insanity.

[lily]

Any politician who doesn't accept the basic idea of "American Exceptionalism" is considered beyond the pale -- an extremist and a nutcase.

Basically, American Exceptionalism means: The Golden Rule doesn't apply.

In contemporary American political culture, adherence to the most fundamental and traditional principles of Judea-Christian morality is considered extremism, if not insanity.

I've been trying to understand their point of view. Maybe caddis or someone can explain it again? Ok, I just went back and read caddis' post. I think there's a misunderstanding, on what the Golden Rule means. I'm going to reply to him, then I'll be back to share my thoughts... (and probably start a new thread)

[lily]

Ron Paul fails in the fact that we are not bombing other countries indiscriminately. He can have his golden rule if America starts doing things such as harboring international terrorist groups or begins using WMDs on its own citizens.

He was bood and deserved it for placing us on the same level as those we oppose

First of all, we have been bombing over there. You may feel that it's just, but that's your opinion. I don't think you're willing or able to accept that we have been lied to. I get the feeling that because Bush (a Republican) was in power when the wars started, you defend it, because you are still falling for the "Republican vs Democrat" false dichotomy. That is problem #1.

Second, you seem to be misunderstanding what the Golden Rule means. It just means to treat others the way we want to be treated. It doesn't mean that we are morally equal to them... and that is not what Ron Paul was saying at all. He was simply saying that we should treat other nations (not just in the Middle East, but all over the world) in the same way that WE want to be treated, or... the reverse of that, don't do things to other nations that we wouldn't like them to do to us.

We pride ourselves on believing in principles such as Independence, Sovereignty, Liberty, Justice and the power belonging to the people.... yet do our actions as a nation go along with that?

If we believe so much in independence, then how is it any of our business to tell other countries what they can or cannot do? Why is it any of our business to do things like nation building, having our troops in other countries, setting up dictators, etc? That doesn't sound like a nation that truly values independence and self-determination.

So he was just saying that we should (especially if we claim to be christians) treat other nations in the same way that WE would like to be treated. We don't like others telling us what to do, overriding our constitution and infringing on our soveriengty.... so let's not do that to others. It's not that complicated.

[Farnsworth,Luther P.]

This is what I've been trying to say here, over and over. But now here's a clear-cut example, of how we have departed from basic Christian principles in our foreign policy, and some are cheering this on!

At the debate tonight in South Carolina, Paul advocated the Golden Rule, in how we treat other nations. In a state where (I'm assuming) there are many so called christians and conservatives, he got booed for that. This is scary to me. Strangely, a minute later he got cheers when he said we don't need another war, but maybe those were from the more sane people.

You clearly do not understand the Golden Rule, and you also seem to think Christianity=pacifism. It doesn't. Violence was used to drive the loan sharks from the Temple, for one, something Messiah Paul would never ever do in a million years, by the way, he loves them, and there are plenty of examples, like Luke 35 through 38, as well ...

"35
And he said unto them, When I sent you forth without purse, and wallet, and shoes, lacked ye anything? And they said, Nothing.
36
And he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet; and he that hath none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword.
37
For I say unto you, that this which is written must be fulfilled in me, And he was reckoned with transgressors: for that which concerneth me hath fulfilment. 38

And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough. "

Pacifists don't direct their followers to buy swords and arm themselves, and the governments of the countries we bombed were not innocent pacifist hippies either; they were among the most vile savages on the face of the earth. The Golden Rule is a two way street, philosophically.

[lily]

I never said that Jesus was pacifist. So I don't know where you got that from. And what christians call the Golden Rule, as stated by Jesus is:

“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets." Matthew 7:12


As I was just saying.


So don't try to turn this around. Here is what caddis said:

He can have his golden rule if America starts doing things such as harboring international terrorist groups or begins using WMDs on its own citizens.

That makes no sense, we don't have to be on the same level with our enemies morally in order to follow the Golden Rule. So, I'm not misunderstanding the Golden Rule, but maybe I'm misunderstanding what CADDIS is saying, because his wording there is very unclear.

He was bood and deserved it for placing us on the same level as those we oppose

He wasn't placing us on the same level, he was simply saying that our foreign policy should be like the golden rule, which means TREATING OTHER NATIONS THE WAY WE WOULD LIKE THEM TO TREAT US.

[Šñøü†ê®]

omg Farnsworth attempting to interpret Scripture. What is the "sword?" Revelation might help define that. I have not read (which requires constant cross referencing) the entire New Testament in a decade or so but recall Jesus being a pacifist and admonishing his friends to not engage in any violence when they thought their might be a revolution.

Obviously the would NEVER attack innocent people EVER.

[Guido]

You clearly do not understand the Golden Rule, and you also seem to think Christianity=pacifism. It doesn't. Violence was used to drive the loan sharks from the Temple, for one, something Messiah Paul would never ever do in a million years, by the way, he loves them, and there are plenty of examples, like Luke 35 through 38, as well ...

"35
And he said unto them, When I sent you forth without purse, and wallet, and shoes, lacked ye anything? And they said, Nothing.
36
And he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet; and he that hath none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword.
37
For I say unto you, that this which is written must be fulfilled in me, And he was reckoned with transgressors: for that which concerneth me hath fulfilment. 38

And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough. "

Pacifists don't direct their followers to buy swords and arm themselves, and the governments of the countries we bombed were not innocent pacifist hippies either; they were among the most vile savages on the face of the earth. The Golden Rule is a two way street, philosophically.

It's Farnsworth, not Lily, who doesn't understand the Golden Rule.

The Golden Rule expresses the principle of reciprocity -- the idea that what is good for me is also (necessarily, as a matter of principle) good for you as well.

The principle of reciprocity can also be expressed as the principle of universality -- if a judgment is a moral judgment, it must apply universally, to everyone equally.

The distinguishing feature of Western, Judeo-Christian moral thinking is, at least in theory, its universality and in that sense, the Golden Rule is absolutely fundamental.

But these principles simply do not apply in American political culture.

American Exceptionalism means that America is uniquely virtuous and cannot be judged based on the standards that apply to other countries and societies.

The taboo on "moral equivalence" means that nothing we do -- merely by the fact that it's us doing it -- can be judged according to the same standard on which others are judged.

Another way to express the point is: American political culture is entirely Nietzschean ("beyond good and evil") and Christian morality is, as Nietzsche put it, the morality of slaves.

[caddis]

First of all, we have been bombing over there. You may feel that it's just, but that's your opinion.

You failed to make sense of my entire statement. I never said we weren't bombing, I said we weren't bombing indiscriminately

I don't think you're willing or able to accept that we have been lied to.

This in an opinion, not fact

I get the feeling that because Bush (a Republican) was in power when the wars started, you defend it, because you are still falling for the "Republican vs Democrat" false dichotomy.

Between your poor interpretation of what I said, your reliance on opinion, and now your "feeling" you are making a poor argument

Second, you seem to be misunderstanding what the Golden Rule means. It just means to treat others the way we want to be treated.

You misunderstood my post again or you have a different interpretation of "as one would like others to treat oneself" (Which, BTW, is not a Christian concept). The Golden Rule revolves around reciprocity and I clearly said that "He can have his golden rule if America starts doing things such as harboring international terrorist groups or begins using WMDs on its own citizens."

It doesn't mean that we are morally equal to them... and that is not what Ron Paul was saying at all.

And that is why he is wrong. Reciprocity has everything to do with morals, values, and intentions. If we were walking on the sidewalk and I accidentally bumped into you and knocked you down, you wouldn't lose your temper nor would you feel the desire to strike back. If I purposely shoved you onto the ground you would have the opposite reaction. Why? Intention? Only a bad person would do such a thing to you? Do I deserve to be punished now?

Who is America bombing and why? What countries have we not followed your version of the Golden Rule? why?

We pride ourselves on believing in principles such as Independence, Sovereignty, Liberty, Justice and the power belonging to the people.... yet do our actions as a nation go along with that?

yes

If we believe so much in independence, then how is it any of our business to tell other countries what they can or cannot do?

You mean other nations do not do the same to us? The United Nations doesn't exist for this very reason? Every nation is supposed to STFU with respect to all other nations?

Why is it any of our business to do things like nation building,

I'm not a fan of nation building but isn't that the Christian thing to do after you have destroyed a nation by war?

having our troops in other countries

You mean in countries like Korea where they want us or Afghanistan where we are at war?

That doesn't sound like a nation that truly values independence and self-determination

Maybe I missed something from you or Ron Paul, do we have troops in other countries to protect them or to coerce them? Are our troops at their voting polls telling others how to vote?

So he was just saying that we should (especially if we claim to be Christians) treat other nations in the same way that WE would like to be treated.

Do American's like to be ruled by ruthless dictators? Oppressive religious regimes? Controlling communist entities. Is it the Christian thing to allow other people to suffer because they lack the power to help or protect themselves?

We don't like others telling us what to do, overriding our constitution and infringing on our soveriengty.... so let's not do that to others. It's not that complicated.

It's not the difficult, our Constitution and our rule of law are morally superior to those countries we oppose.