Christopher Hitchens Dead At Age 62

[Cyclone Ranger]

More like simply defending themselves against the Palestinians' endless terrorist onslaught.

[Archaix]

Your word for what Israeli governments have been doing is "threatening"? Have you failed to notice the other stuff -- like stealing, exploiting, killing, destroying, ethnic cleansing, and so on? Are they not only doing it, but threatening to do it as well? OMG!

Threatened by promise of future Israeli action according to #48 in the poll above.

Why do you "sincerely hope" that Israelis do not support terrorism? Speaking in terms of horrible, illegal, morally repulsive things that people do to other people for no good reason, what distinguishes the things Israelis do apparently support from terrorism? In this context, what is special about terrorism?

I sincerely hope that ordinary Israelis do not think the terrorism of their nation's founding was justified and that state policies of terror in the present day are acceptable. I don't see what's so controversial about that.

Why should Palestinians not "resort to terrorism"? What should they resort to?

Anything else.

[Misteria]

More like simply defending themselves against the Palestinians' endless terrorist onslaught.

Guess who is going to do Sar El volunteering.

[Cyclone Ranger]

I specifically mentioned Oman, which (according to an article on the website you cited) is an Islamic society "in which to be honourable means to honour others’." On another article about Qatar: "Dr. Jouhaina Sultan Seif El-Issa, vice chairperson of Qatar's supreme council for family affairs, points out that Qatari business women account for more than 50 percent of the total equity investors and dealers in the Doha Stock Market...She said Qatar has established two Foundations: one, for child and women protection, and the other, to combat human trafficking."

That may be true, but should be put into its proper context:

In practice, however, discrimination against women exists. For example, Qatari women must have permission from their male guardians to obtain driver's licenses, and men may prevent female relatives from leaving the country. Female workforce participation rates remain low and women remain concentrated in traditional sectors, notably education and medicine. However, the barriers to employment are more informal than formal; Qatari women who choose to are found working in a range of professional positions.

http://freedomhouse.org/template.cfm...&ccrcountry=61

The UAE has less positive feedback, and I'll concede that.

All of which is marvelous, but honor killings still happen without punishment. For example, here a court in Qatar commutes a teenager's murder sentence as long as he doesn't murder anyone in the next three years else like he strangled his sister : http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topic...6&parent_id=16

To get back to the point on this issue: Islamic-majority countries are not necessarily hamstrung by their religion or 'culture', insofar as they have a broad, shared culture (Christopher Hitchens would no doubt disagree). Democracy and better rights are possible in these societies, as Reuel Gerecht has argued, and Islam can accomodate -and even encourage- democracy.

Hard to say whether it could in its fundamentalist form or not. For example, many of the Sharia's laws must be observed by the state, and therefore require an Islamic fundamentalist government to be carried out.

You're not following me. You said: "UNWRA is also ignoring the fact that most East Bank residents are Palestinian. Certainly, at least half of Jordan is Palestinian in ethnicity, and probably quite a bit more. The focus of Jordanian nationalism is the Hashemites, not the Palestinians." You still haven't shown any evidence for this.

All of this has been discussed in the media many times:

Hashemite statements have to be seen in the light of efforts to integrate and manage east bank Palestinians. The many Palestinians on the east bank, estimated between 40 and 70 percent of the total population, compelled the king to demonstrate his commitment to the Palestine issue. These considerations explain why for forty years Amman rhetorically adopted Palestinian aspirations.

http://www.danielpipes.org/298/is-jordan-palestine

Of course it is, but speculating that the percentage is higher is pointless if you can't say how much higher. Is more than 50%? As high as 70%? How do we know embarressment is not countered by the anonymity factor? How do we know they didn't have to even say anything, but fill in the questionairre as they were fed questions (as has been the case whenever I've taken a public survey)?

We can't know that, but we can certainly make a legitimate guess that it's at least a bit higher.

I sincerely hope Israelis do not support terrorism (although I have never suggested they do), but the policy of the Israeli governments have been seen to be threatening. I think there's good grounds for this, as I've explained all along. And before TT pipes in, I don't think that means Palestinians should resort to terrorism.

I don't agree. The Israelis take action against the Palestinians when the latter perpetrate suicide bombings and rocket attacks against the former. When they don't, there is complete quiet.

A rose-spectacled view of history that ignores all evidence to the contrary. That link of mine also shows that the Israeli Government even considered for future use using Stuka sirens to scare Palestinians away so they could settle their land -ironic, right?

ie, you have no evidence to contradict it.

They drove innocent people out of their land and occupied it for the Jewish Homeland.

I don't agree. Those people chose to reject the partition plan, and support the Arab League's invasion of the Israeli partition. Had they not done so, they would have their Palestinian homeland.

Then that undermines the concept of one historically static group having legitimacy over an area.

Bullshit. The concept of a people and the concept of a biological "race" aren't commensurate.

They have to organise themselves thus because they have been forced into the margins of what was once Palestine by the ethnic/racial homeland of the Jews. I don't like that at all -I'd much prefer both groups live together in mutual tolerance, and for Jewish immigration as it is now to cease.

1. There never was a historical Palestinian nation. They lived in the Ottoman's empire.

2. The West Bank, Hebron and Gaza are HARDLY the margins of anything.

3. Israel was created for Jewish immigration, chartered by the United Nation for Jewish immigration, and will continue to have Jewish immigration very likely forever. It's the modern economic power it is today because Jewish immigrants built it from desert sand. You have no business telling the Israelis to cease Jewish immigration into their sovereign nation.

They rebelled against the Ottoman Empire during WWI because they believed the British would welcome their support, help them overthrow the Empire and reward the Palestinians after the war with proper statehood.

BS. The Palestinians never even considered statehood, or that they were anything other than generic Arab Muslims, until after the Jews created Israel. The Palestinians told the Crane King Commission that they were part of Syria. Nor is there much evidence the Palestinians ever 'rebelled' against the Ottomans in any meaningful way.

I doubt you can find evidence of that, but please feel free to try. The reason for the rise of the Nazi Party had little to do with a sudden surge in racism and much more to do with a complex feeling of frustration politically, economically and socially -and if you read any good book on the subject it'll tell you the same thing.

Nonsense. As discussed in Evans' The Coming of the Third Reich, the Nazis support came most from ultra-nationalists frustrated with the existing nationalist right's refusal to stand up against Weimar democracy. Workers had little to gain from support of the NSDAP, given their anti-union stance, nor did the German middle class.

Racism and antisemitism were simply the most basic foundation of Nazism, were openly discussed by them, and promoted through the SA. Racism and anti-Semitism were extremely prevalent in Germany anyhow.

The election of Hamas is doubtless the same given that they're not even the most popular political choice amongst Palestinians, according to your poll, -3rd, after 'none of the above' (#69).

Hamas is popular enough to have won overwhelming landslide elections every time the Palestinians have gone to the polls, and there isn't any reason to believe that's changed.

[antiquity]

CR....The Nazi party ec ish fertig gestellt and the Holocaust was over with 67 years ago....get over it.

[Cyclone Ranger]

Not in a billion years.

[Misteria]

Not in a billion years.

ITA its outrageous to even try to push it behind us like it happened a long time ago, we should never be made to forget the Holocaust or any other ones.

[antiquity]

I asked by grandson if they mentioned anything about the Holocaust in school and he said they did as they discussed WWII but not what it was about. He didn't seem to care one way or the other. I think most Americans and European feel the same way, they don't dwell on it as a big thing any longer. He thinks upgrading to a 4mb cell phone as his biggest priority right now.

People deal with things when time passes just as they did after the big flood? or three or four wars that effected their lives more than what the Nazi did 70-75 years ago, many things have more effect on lives of people right now than the holocaust. Even weather disasters and not having a job has more effect on people than worrying about something that happened 70 years ago to some one else.

[Cyclone Ranger]

Then you'll get it over it eventually.

[antiquity]

Its hard to get over it because of the guilt trip you and Ganja put on the rest of society. No one in America had anything to due with the holocaust, get on some Germany/Nazi web site and make them feel guilty. Your pleas are falling on death ears.

[GanjaFreebird]

It is, and a lot of people would be safe if they hadn’t moved to Israel under the illusion that it was ‘their’ land to inherit,

Well it IS our fuckin' land and we're already there and not going anywhere. Get over it.

Evidence? College professors typically have tenure, and generally can't be fired for any ideological reason.

CR, Snouter wouldn't know any better as he's never had a real job, with or without a tenure.

The very ideology of homelands and peoples under whose auspices the Jews were all but exterminated has become the sustaining ideology of Israel, a state devoted to Jewish ethnic sovereignty. This is why we always hear that Israel – not Israelis – has a "right to exist." What matters are not the citizens of a state, but the state itself, the totemic icon of ‘the Jewish people’.

Israel has no reason to exist unless it's a Jewish state, which is why it was created to begin with, genius.

When Zionists suggest that the French and Germans have a right to their states, they conveniently forget that this means the inhabitants of France and Germany, not those of some French or German ancestry, not a ‘people’ in the sense of an ethnic group.

What about the 50+ Arab-Muslim states? Did you forget about them, or what?

The ethnic nationalism embodied in Zionism is fundamentally different from and offensive to the civic nationalism that characterizes modern democracies. What is unfolding in Israel today is the incremental but quickly accelerating dissolution of the trappings of liberal democracy in favor of ethnocracy.

Even if true, it's up to the Israelis to decide what they want in their country, not up to you. I mean, every "arab spring" country have elected radical Muslims, and yet you support their right to self-determination, so why should Israel be treated any differently, even if we decided to turn Israel into an ultra-orthodox Jewish fundementalist state, rather than the liberal secular democracy that it is?

I don't think that means Palestinians should resort to terrorism.

But they do, and this is why we have to defend ourselves.

They drove innocent people out of their land and occupied it for the Jewish Homeland.

Those people weren't innocent, they were at war against us, and it wasn't their land, as most of them moved there only AFTER we built it in the 1800s. Stop bullshiting, thanks in advance.

They have to organise themselves thus because they have been forced into the margins of what was once Palestine by the ethnic/racial homeland of the Jews.

That land was never theirs to begin with. Most of them moved there from Jordan and other Arab countries AFTER the Zionists built it. Before the Zionists, there were only 300,000-400,000 in the ENTIRE Palestine, including Muslims, Jews (such as my family on my father's side) and Christians. The Zionists made it possible for both Jews and Muslims to actually move there.

I don't like that at all -I'd much prefer both groups live together in mutual tolerance, and for Jewish immigration as it is now to cease.

WTF? Why the FUCK should the Jewish immigration to Israel cease? Please tell me. What part of a JEWISH STATE don't you understand?

Why should Palestinians not "resort to terrorism"? What should they resort to?

That's an easy one...accept pre-1967 Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state, stop terrorism and agree to Barak's deal from 2000, which Arafat regretted turning down. You might say "it's not good enough", but that's a whole lot better than what they have today, and they need to decide if their goal is actually having their own state, or continue to try to destroy Israel.

[Cyclone Ranger]

Its hard to get over it because of the guilt trip you and Ganja put on the rest of society. No one in America had anything to due with the holocaust, get on some Germany/Nazi web site and make them feel guilty. Your pleas are falling on death ears.

If it's worth doing, then it won't be easy.

Not to mention the fact that there weren't any "pleas." As a rabid anti-Semite, you just can't tolerate any mention of the Holocaust.

[Šñøü†ê®]

Ganga, what if:

1) yahweh was wrong to order ancient Israel to kill native tribes and steal their land or,
2) yahweh was disgusted with the failure of the tribes of Israel and scattered them until the end time, or
3) you do not descend from a tribe of Israel or,
4) yahweh never existed and,
5) you are just crazy racist guys from russia whose mafia techniques feature using religion to leech off host countries
6) Any country has no reason to exist as a racist country so yes, it should not exist as a racist "state."

[Cyclone Ranger]

Answer: who gives a shit?

Of course, you're just an inane, unemployed troll, but you haven't explained how is Israel is any more "racist" than any other country, given that it enforces equal rights for all its citizens, regardless of race.

[Šñøü†ê®]

^Unable to respond to reason alert!

[Cyclone Ranger]

^ That's because you have none alert!

[Šñøü†ê®]

^My guess is yahweh doesn't like you!

[GanjaFreebird]

Ganga, what if:

1) yahweh was wrong to order ancient Israel to kill native tribes and steal their land or,

God is never wrong.

2) yahweh was disgusted with the failure of the tribes of Israel and scattered them until the end time, or

Obviviously not, as Eretz Israel exists today AND with God's help and miracles, we beat the shit out of our enemies in 1948, 1967 and many other times. God loves his Chosen people, obviously!!

3) you do not descend from a tribe of Israel or,

I do, make no mistake about that one, and to be fair, so do you, as your Jewish nose is even bigger than mine.

4) yahweh never existed and,

Well, I do believe in God, however, many atheists, agnostics and non-religious people support Israel for completely secular reasons, including many of Israel's founding fathers.

The fact that the Hebrew people had a homeland in Eretz Israel for many many years isn't a matter of a belief in Judaism/God, it's a matter of historical facts, or else they wouldn't be finding ancient Jewish stuff all of the time in Jerusalem, Hevron, Beer Sheva and other places. The history of our people in Israel isn't questionable, it's 100% confirmed by hitorical, archeological and biological studies.

you are just crazy racist guys from russia whose mafia techniques feature using religion to leech off host countries

1. I would love to see your evidence that Ethiopean Jews, Sephardic Jews, Nigerian Jews and Mizrahi Jews ever lived anywhere close to Russia. Good luck.

2. If we wanted to use our religion to leech off the goyim, Israel wouldn't have been created to begin with, retard. The only Jew that I know of that is leeching off anybody outside of Israel is YOU.

3. Some of my family were living in Israel/Palestine (Hevron and Jerusalem, to be exact) until the 1800's, and they only moved to Europe then, probably because of the Arab-Muslim violence against them.

4. DNA studies prove that almost all Jews today are originally from the middle east and have MUCH more in common genetically with Arabs and other mid-eastern people than with Russians and other European people. Science doesn't lie, however, you do.

[jwreck]

I can't believe you fucking halfwits turned this into yet another jew thread. DUMBASSES.

[GanjaFreebird]

I can't believe you fucking halfwits turned this into yet another jew thread. DUMBASSES.

And you can thank our Hebrews Snouter and Guido for that one. Having said that, Hitchens WAS a Jew who had issues with Israel, so it's not really off-topic either.