Ten Years Ago

[Zordar]

Oh, I know there's no point in debating him. Ganja is a tin-eared musical buffoon, convinced he is right because he knows no better.

I do love the fact that he finds somebody merely liking the Beatles, but not willing to suck them off as the OMG BEST EVAR so offensive. Good times.

[Archaix]

I've been listening to George Harrison a lot lately, particularly Any Road. Man was a genius, and made heavily religious music that ordinarily I would despise but somehow find incredible (like My Sweet Lord).

RIP, and fuck the doctor that screwed you over at the end.

[GanjaFreebird]

Dude you can't argue with ganja as he is the only professional musician EVER so his opinion is gospel truth.

I've never said anything like that. My opinions on music are just opinions...for instance, "Beatles' music is the best ever" is an opinion. Ringo and George being some of the best and most influential intrumentalists in history is not an opinion, but a fact that even many people who personally don't really like The Beatles and their music will admit.

Musical abilities aren't really a matter of opinion...for example, I'm not a big Journey fan, but Neil Schon and the rest of them are also among the best musicians in the world, that's a fact that I can't deny. Prince isn't one of my 10 top favorite artists (or even close), but I would NEVER deny he's one of the most talented musicians ever lived.

Beatles=most overrated band in history. =>my opinion.

And that's fine, it is a matter of an opinion. The fact that all of them were fantastic and absolutely exceptional musicians is not a matter of an opinion, or else they wouldn't be where they are, nor would other Rock/Pop legends (including Elton John, Cream, David Bowie, Eric Clapton, The Rolling Stones, Howlin' Wolf, Alvin Lee, Tom Petty, Bob Dylan, Badfinger, Jim Capaldi and many others) be hiring ex-Beatles members to play instruments on their albums (when they can afford THE BEST sudio session musicians, easily).

[jwreck]

I would suggest that getting a Beatle to play on an album would be much more about marketing than musicianship.

[Truth Teller]

Ringo is a wonderful entertainer, but not much of a drummer. Anybody who thinks otherwise is musically retarded or completely lacking in objectivity and taste. Or both.

If you're talking jazz you might have a point,we're talking rock and roll which is not rocket science.

[GanjaFreebird]

Oh, I know there's no point in debating him. Ganja is a tin-eared musical buffoon, convinced he is right because he knows no better.

I do know better, music is all I ever do, and I have enough education and personal experience to know exactly what I'm talking about here.

Oh please. Find me a singer who can monkey-shriek like David Lee Roth

David Lee Roth is an exceptionally great performer who has a unique singing style, even if he isn't the greatest vocalist in the world. Obviously, he was the best one for Van Halen and they could NEVER sound anywhere as good without him, even when they used a better vocalist.

Having said that, his singing isn't nearly as influential or essential to Rock music as Ringo's or George's playing...not even close. They are all-around geniuses, while DLR is just great at what he does best.

or baboon-croon like Louis Prima.

Louis Prima is GREAT!!

You can't, because they are unique characters, yet neither will ever be named best singer of all time.

They are great singers, and the best for what they do. George and Ringo have a whole lot of other things going for them besides being unique...the list is too long, in fact.

Good and great entertainers, respectively, and Prima might even make a few "top stylist" lists, but that's all. And Ringo's personality or "uniqueness" has never been in question.

Nobody can play the way Ringo does and his style is the most influential one in Rock music. Again, the only drummer that comes close to playing as perfect as Ringo, is Charlie Watts (since 1980s, not before), and even then, Ringo doesn't compromise any creativity/soul by keeping a perfect beat/groove, while Charlie lost some of the creative elements that he used to have in the late 1960s and 1970s after he started playing very solid like he does now.

Starr himself admits he's technically limited

1. Hendrix didn't think he was that good either...REAL great musicians are their own worst critics, actually.

2. Ringo (just like Charlie Watts) is also a Jazz player, and in that context, many Jazz drummers can do technical things that Ringo can't do, but there are even more stuff (that's more important in regards to the music than technical skills alone) that Ringo can do, which they have absolutely no idea about it. Ringo has the REAL musical talent and creative abilities that most drummers and musicians simply don't have, which is why he was already a working musician by the age of 20 and a legend by the age of 24. You have to be REALLY exceptional to get to that level, make no mistake about this.

a stylist and persona

Actually, that might be his weakest link...he is no Mick Jagger, Robert Plant, Daltrey or Morrison when it comes to being a frontman...he has a great sense of humor and can be entertaining when he just sings, but as somebody that have seen him in concert quite a few times, he is most impressive when he plays the drums (especially when he sings while playing the drums), and people go to his shows to hear him play and sing, first of all, not to be entertained by his style and persona.

, and a lot of the people you cite (like Collins) are referring to Starr as an influence or inspiration.

He is an influence on all of them...a drummer who influences the greatest drummers in Rock history, is, indeed, a great drummer, by definition.

And as a guitarist, you should know full well that many of the most "inspirational" players really aren't all that good.

Such as who? I don't know too many. Elvis? Well, at least he played great rhythm guitar, even if he wasn't a Jeff Beck when it comes to lead. The same goes for The Edge.

Inspirational players obviously have to be all that good, or else, why the fuck would they inspire so many people anyways.

No.

Explain.

I've seen examples of your "taste," and your OCD Beatle-slurping is downright creepy, so any lessons on musicianship from you are highly suspect.

It's not about anybody liking The Beatles or their music, it's about their musical skills, which were amazing, regardless of anybody's musical taste or opinions.

. However, I do agree that having a good sound and feel is very important. But they are only components of musicianship.

Probably the most important components of musicianship.

Like you say, there are a lot of people who are flashy or fast and skilled whose playing does nothing for most humans (Allan Holdsworth and Vinnie Moore come to mind), but they're only the ying to the yang.

And the fact that Harrison's playing touches people the way it does, obviously makes him superior to all of the above guitarists by definition.

[Truth Teller]

Starr himself admits he's technically limited

Compared to someone like Art Blakey or Buddy Rich,you are correct.

But we're talking rock and roll.

Plus ,there's way more to music than technics,personally I find many,possibly most ,technical players to be boring.

I've seen examples of your "taste," and your OCD Beatle-slurping is downright creepy, so any lessons on musicianship from you are highly suspect.

What makes your view trump his?

Dude you can't argue with ganja as he is the only professional musician EVER so his opinion is gospel truth.

Oh, I know there's no point in debating him. Ganja is a tin-eared musical buffoon

Why?

Have you heard him play?

convinced he is right because he knows no better.

Irony.

I would suggest that getting a Beatle to play on an album would be much more about marketing than musicianship.

In every case?

[GanjaFreebird]

I would suggest that getting a Beatle to play on an album would be much more about marketing than musicianship.

While there is SOME truth to that, let's not forget that very often (because of legal issues with the labels) they didn't even get the credit for their session work, not only that, but it was kept a secret until many years later, such as John and Paul's vocals on Rolling Stones songs, Harrison's guitar on "Day After Day" and "Badge" and many other examples.

Besides, legendary/famous artists can't possibly benefit by hiring a mediocre (or somebody who isn't one of the best) drummer for their studio recordings, as it will affect the entire quality and do more harm than any possible marketing benefit. We all know that if the drum track is not very good, the recording is pretty much a waste of time, regardless of anything else.

And obviously, John, Paul and George had not much of a "marketing reasons" to hire Ringo for many of their solo albums, not to mention that few music fans even know that anyways, let alone about Ringo playing for Howlin Wolf, B.B. King, Peter Frampton, Carl Perkins, ELO, Steven Stills, Harry Nilsson, or even on Keith Moon's solo album.

[Zordar]

Inspirational players obviously have to be all that good, or else, why the fuck would they inspire so many people anyways.

Been over this with you already.

Ace Frehley was (is?) a pretty good hard rock player. Not great, just pretty good. But you ask anybody who grew up learning guitar in the '70s who their guitar hero was, and "Ace Frehley" comes up as often as Hendrix or Page. He gave Gibson a huge boost in sales during a rough patch, and his 1997 Les Paul is an all-time best-seller.

So there you go. A good but not great player from a boring cock-rock band who inspired legions of young guitarists and sold a shit-ton of guitars. Same thing happened ten years later to a (thankfully) much lesser extent with C.C. Deville. It happens.

Same could be said for guys like Angus Young or Slash, but I appreciate their playing too much to lump them in with Frehley.

Probably the most important components of musicianship.

Probably the only thing you've ever said I agree with.

And the fact that Harrison's playing touches people the way it does, obviously makes him superior to all of the above guitarists by definition

Superior to Holdsworth and Moore? Not from a technical standpoint, but yes, still superior overall. Harrison sure ain't the world's best guitarist or musician, though.

[GanjaFreebird]

If you're talking jazz you might have a point,we're talking rock and roll which is not rocket science.

Actually, Ringo knows Jazz techniques, just listen to "I Feel Fine" as a small example, and he's been playing Jazz and R&B even before he joined The Beatles. Ringo can play anything, but he choses to give each song what it really needs, rather than show off his skills. Are there many Jazz drummers who have technical skills that Ringo doesnt? Sure, but that doesn't really do a whole lot for their careers as musicians, nor for the listeners.

[Notalibtard]

Been over this with you already.

Ace Frehley was (is?) a pretty good hard rock player. Not great, just pretty good. But you ask anybody who grew up learning guitar in the '70s who their guitar hero was, and "Ace Frehley" comes up as often as Hendrix or Page. He gave Gibson a huge boost in sales during a rough patch, and his 1997 Les Paul is an all-time best-seller.

So there you go. A good but not great player from a boring cock-rock band who inspired legions of young guitarists and sold a shit-ton of guitars. Same thing happened ten years later to a (thankfully) much lesser extent with C.C. Deville. It happens.

Same could be said for guys like Angus Young or Slash, but I appreciate their playing too much to lump them in with Frehley.



Probably the only thing you've ever said I agree with.

Superior to Holdsworth and Moore? Not from a technical standpoint, but yes, still superior overall. Harrison sure ain't the world's best guitarist or musician, though.

Now Dave Gilmour is truly inspriational. He does things with the gituar that can make a grown man cry. See "Shine on you Crazy Diamond" Parts 1 thru infinity. He is not the best technically, but his ability to bring out the emotions in his gituar playing is truly amazing.

[Zordar]

Now Dave Gilmour is truly inspriational.

Agreed.

[GanjaFreebird]

Compared to someone like Art Blakey or Buddy Rich,you are correct.

On a good day, Ginger Baker can destroy both of them (as far as technical skills and time signatures go), as besides Jazz/Rock, he also plays African/World music and knows rhythms and drum elements that even the best Jazz players have no idea about...but technical skills isn't everything.

But we're talking rock and roll.

Plus ,there's way more to music than technics,personally I find many,possibly most ,technical players to be boring.

Very true.

What makes your view trump his?

Good question.

In every case?

Obviously not, since very often they didn't even get the credit (nor was it known to anybody), and even most of the times when they DID get the credit, most music fans are absolutely ignorant about it...hell, until recently, I didn't even know about some of their session work:shug:.

[Notalibtard]

The awesomeness starts at 2:18

[GanjaFreebird]

Been over this with you already.

Ace Frehley was (is?) a pretty good hard rock player. Not great, just pretty good. But you ask anybody who grew up learning guitar in the '70s who their guitar hero was, and "Ace Frehley" comes up as often as Hendrix or Page.

No he doesn't, NOT NEARLY as often as Page or Hendrix.

He gave Gibson a huge boost in sales during a rough patch, and his 1997 Les Paul is an all-time best-seller.

I'm sure the same could be said about Elvis and his guitars. KISS were and are a very famous/popular band, after all.

So there you go. A good but not great player from a boring cock-rock band who inspired legions of young guitarists and sold a shit-ton of guitars. Same thing happened ten years later to a (thankfully) much lesser extent with C.C. Deville. It happens.

Professional guitarists/musicians are very rarely huge fans of Frehley or Deville, and usually consider them to be "lucky". George and Ringo get huge respect not only from almost all Rock musicians, but also plenty of musicians of other styles who don't even care for Rock in general.

Same could be said for guys like Angus Young or Slash, but I appreciate their playing too much to lump them in with Frehley.

Both are virtuoso Rock guitarists (Slash occasionally plays at Blues jams that I go to, and he's AMAZING, much better than most people assume), but neither are considered musical geniuses/innovators or all-around masters of music, unlike Clapton or Harrison. They are just excellent Rock/Blues-Rock players who invented great riffs and are great (if not the best) at what they do. The same goes for Keith Richards and Tony Iommi.

Probably the only thing you've ever said I agree with.

But then, wouldn't it make George Harrison among the top best guitarists ever, by definition?

Superior to Holdsworth and Moore? Not from a technical standpoint, but yes, still superior overall.

EXACTLY!!

Harrison sure ain't the world's best guitarist or musician, though.

There is no "best", but he was sure as hell one of them.

[Zordar]

Good question.

By your own admission, I'm a far, far better musician than you: I have been a professional since you were in middle school, and have a master's from a top-5 program, rather than your state-school Cracker Jack bachelor's. More experienced and educated. Of course, I forgive you for not knowing this. How could I expect you to? After all, I don't feel a need to brag about my musical knowledge and contacts every fucking post. Maybe you could help me work on that?

Anyhow, unless you want to change your definition, my opinion is far more valid than yours. Until then, suck it.

[jwreck]

By your own admission, I'm a far, far better musician than you: I have been a professional since you were in middle school, and have a master's from a top-5 program, rather than your state-school Cracker Jack bachelor's. More experienced and educated. Of course, I forgive you for not knowing this. How could I expect you to? After all, I don't feel a need to brag about my musical knowledge and contacts every fucking post. Maybe you could help me work on that?

Anyhow, unless you want to change your definition, my opinion is far more valid than yours. Until then, suck it.

[GanjaFreebird]

By your own admission, I'm a far, far better musician than you:

My own admission? When? I've never heard your playing/music, so I have no idea if you are better than me, or if you're any good at all.

I have been a professional since you were in middle school,

You are a full time pro-musician since 1996?

and have a master's from a top-5 program, rather than your state-school Cracker Jack bachelor's.

College of William and Mary is one of America's best schools, and always has been, genius.

But what college did you get your masters' from, and was it actually a Music master's? If the answer is yes, which instrument/what musical abilities did you concentrate on, while getting your bachelor's and master's?

More experienced and educated.

If you answer my questions above AND post some of your music, we will be able to judge.

Of course, I forgive you for not knowing this. How could I expect you to? After all, I don't feel a need to brag about my musical knowledge and contacts every fucking post. Maybe you could help me work on that?

No need to brag, just show the evidence, that's all, or at least answer my specific questions.

Anyhow, unless you want to change your definition, my opinion is far more valid than yours. Until then, suck it.

We don't know that yet, you have yet to talk specifically about your resume...if your education and accomplishments are really superior to mine, then more power to you, but I'm not convinced of that, quite yet.

[Notalibtard]

On a good day, Ginger Baker can destroy both of them

Last time I saw Ginger he looked liked he needed to be on a ventilator. I think he had to use a electric scooter to get to his drums. Everytime he went for the hi hat he got got up in his oxygen hose.

[GanjaFreebird]

Last time I saw Ginger he looked liked he needed to be on a ventilator. I think he had to use a electric scooter to get to his drums. Everytime he went for the hi hat he got got up in his oxygen hose.

When/where did you see him? He did fell off a horse and broke his back quite a few times, so he probably had a hard time walking at the time, and this is also why he uses morphine inhalers (not oxygen). He has a lot of health problems, just like most people his age with similar lifestyles, and is in a lot of pain, unfortunately.

However, here's a very recent video of him playing (his first tour since Cream reunion), and he doesn't look too bad for a 72 year old drug addict, and can still play too.