Character in Leaders.... If we don't care, then do we get the government we deserve?

[lily]

I was reading the thread on Anthony Weiner, and once again I noticed that some people don't seem to understand the importance of character when it comes to a person in any position of authority. As I was reading the comments, I realized what one of the problems is.

I think one of the problems is that people are so into compartmentalizing, instead of seeing someone as one whole person. People like to divide others into different parts, and each part is like a box, that (in the minds of those who do this) doesn't overlap with the other parts. For example, I hear things like, "Well, in his personal life he may be a liar and a cheater, but he is a smart man and that's all that matters!"

The reality is that compartmentalizing people doesn't work. If someone has a track record of lying in certain parts of their life (let's say to their family) it is downright stupid and naive to expect that same person to be honest, transparent and just when it comes to their job and the things they do as a "leader."

I don't want to make anyone mad here, but it seems it's usually the left (though not all on the left) who don't get this. These are the same people who constantly defended one of the slimiest politicians I've seen in my lifetime, Bill Clinton, who they supported KNOWING he had a ton of scandals even before setting foot in the White House, a bad track record when it comes to abusing his authority, and even after he got caught after he looked America in the eye, wagged his finger at us and lied. We don't care, because he's our guy!!! If someone has a clear disregard for the law, what makes you think that same person is going to uphold the constitution and the things that really matter to you and me? Here's a clue: they won't, they don't give a crap.

Of course no one is perfect, and I'm not saying that a leader should be a saint, but shouldn't we just use a little common sense and wisdom? Every part of a person overlaps with other parts... so the key is to look for someone with integrity. That doesn't mean someone perfect, but fer crying out loud, why would you even WANT to continue electing crooks to office, when it's your own life (and mine, and all of ours) that will be affected? How hard is it to understand that our freedom and way of life and all the things we care about aren't guaranteed to last forever, so if you - like an idiot - hand over our future to crooks or people with shady connections, then you know what? You DO get the government you deserve. And if you don't think that our civil liberties and sovereignty and constitution are being eroded away, you haven't been paying attention.

/rant

[fat mike]

clinton is a wonderful case in point-he claimed to be the first black president-yet he allowed many regressive features to remain-he allowed the tech sector to rape the economy and throw a lot of people out of work,he allowed the inattention to the unions to continue as well as the domination in the unions by organized crime-he didnt enact any ameliorative legislation for the poor-he used the scandals as an excuse for not making progress-i dont tinhk he was intersted in doing anythign for anyone anyway-his health plan or his wifes once again failed to address the biggest impediment to effective health care in this country-the hospital/pharma cartel and the emphasis on expensive drugs and surgery...
how did your emphasis on character help? it was a waste of money and media time-it taught poeple that waht happened to them wasnt important

[lily]

clinton is a wonderful case in point-he claimed to be the first black president-yet he allowed many regressive features to remain-he allowed the tech sector to rape the economy and throw a lot of people out of work,he allowed the inattention to the unions to continue as well as the domination in the unions by organized crime-he didnt enact any ameliorative legislation for the poor-he used the scandals as an excuse for not making progress-i dont tinhk he was intersted in doing anythign for anyone anyway-his health plan or his wifes once again failed to address the biggest impediment to effective health care in this country-the hospital/pharma cartel and the emphasis on expensive drugs and surgery...
how did your emphasis on character help? it was a waste of money and media time-it taught poeple that waht happened to them wasnt important

That's because (like Obama) Clinton wasn't a true 'liberal' but another one-worlder whose allegiance is not to the US but to the elitists he's connected to. I know you don't agree with me on the globalism stuff, but... I'm just saying, that's why - even after claiming to be "for the little guy" and "feel our pain" his actions didn't match up with that. Remember, he was for NAFTA which was only good for multinational corporations. But yeah, it starts with his character.

I think the really bad part is, when you have someone like him - or any politician who gets away with things and people still support them - then it slowly desensitizes the public and it just lowers the bar slowly but surely, until we get to the point that we're willing to turn a blind eye to just about anything. And of course, people in power will go as far as they can go... and if the public is desensitized or apathetic, then eventually we'll end up with tyranny, because we let it happen.

[Šñøü†ê®]

Good points lily, most ultra left wing ideologues will attempt to rationalize the bad behavior because they are so delusional that their corrupt politician has their vision in mind, their delusional vision that makes them superior to average citizens in their minds, that they don't care about anything else. Generally the ultra left wing are so selfish,hypocritical, and seemingly clinically insane like Wiener, that to them the ends justify the means. Slick Willie was a turning point because the fact that Slick Willie was not impeached proved to anyone who had doubts that the republican vs democrat charade is theater. The agenda prescribed for them is set and they merely carry it out.

[86Dùde]

This thread is FULL OF WIN!

[86Dùde]

Speaking of Character, it was Clintoon and his stooges that gave us the repeal of Glass Steagal, cha ching.

[fat mike]

That's because (like Obama) Clinton wasn't a true 'liberal' but another one-worlder whose allegiance is not to the US but to the elitists he's connected to. I know you don't agree with me on the globalism stuff, but... I'm just saying, that's why - even after claiming to be "for the little guy" and "feel our pain" his actions didn't match up with that. Remember, he was for NAFTA which was only good for multinational corporations. But yeah, it starts with his character.

I think the really bad part is, when you have someone like him - or any politician who gets away with things and people still support them - then it slowly desensitizes the public and it just lowers the bar slowly but surely, until we get to the point that we're willing to turn a blind eye to just about anything. And of course, people in power will go as far as they can go... and if the public is desensitized or apathetic, then eventually we'll end up with tyranny, because we let it happen.

character isnt unimportant and we dont disagree on billy boy-im just saying strategically it would have been better to attack him on more pragmatic grounds-the whole thing degenrated into a circus for the tabloids

[Guido]

I think one of the problems is that people are so into compartmentalizing, instead of seeing someone as one whole person. People like to divide others into different parts, and each part is like a box, that (in the minds of those who do this) doesn't overlap with the other parts. For example, I hear things like, "Well, in his personal life he may be a liar and a cheater, but he is a smart man and that's all that matters!"

The reality is that compartmentalizing people doesn't work. If someone has a track record of lying in certain parts of their life (let's say to their family) it is downright stupid and naive to expect that same person to be honest, transparent and just when it comes to their job and the things they do as a "leader."

No need to over-intellectualize this phenomenon. In layman's terms, it's called making excuses, and people make excuses because they have low standards, for themselves and therefore for others.

The majority of people are just mediocre. They lie when convenient, are content to let life pass them by in shitty, dishonest, passionless marriages without even trying to comprehend the meaning of commitment. They would prefer to watch TV than try to talk to their spouses or prepare a decent evening meal and they prefer to jerk off to porn than to deal with the complexities of intimacy. They assume that they are performing their civic duty by voting for Republicans or Democrats, because after all, that's the only choice we have, right?

They expect very little from their own lives and consequently, they don't expect much from the people they elect to represent them in government. If their representatives lie to their faces, so what? What's the big deal? You can't really expect politicians to be better than us voters, can you? I mean, like, everyone does it, right? Lie, cheat, steal if the opportunity arises, just don't do anything really major, and above all, don't get caught.

Consider neutrino as an example. This is a 33-year old man who is a virgin and works at a minimum wage job, even though he's not stupid or disabled. These facts articulate the kind of standards he sets for his own life. It's no accident that he's OK with a complete mediocrity like Anthony Weiner in the US Congress. He trusts a known liar (Weiner) to draw a distinction between those matters in which lying is OK ("private life") and those matters in which lying is not-OK (WMD in Iraq), as long as the liar is a Democrat. Setting higher standards, either for himself or for the politicians who represent him -- that would require some effort, some thought, some nuance, and therefore, it's out of the question.

Naturally, the people elected to Congress are just as mediocre in their own way, even if they're more ambitious, and if the voters accept lying, duplicity, cheating, and the use of public policy as a means for personal enrichment and career advancement, there's no reason in the world for a politician to hold him/herself to a higher standard.

[hadit]

Character informs on the whole person. You are correct, lily, when you say we examine a person's past and overall standard of behavior to decide if we want to risk entrusting them with authority or for that matter, anything. We look at a person's debt repayment history to determine if we want to loan them more money. We look at their criminal background before we trust them to take care of our children. That's why attorneys try so hard to impeach the character of opposing witnesses. Bottom line, character matters.

[Dick Tator]

I don't care what a politician does on their own time. I only care about how they do their job. Who gives a fuck if Wiener was flashing his dick to perfectly legal adult women? I care more about his voting record than the notches in his belt. He is on the wrong side of nearly every issue. He supported ObamaCare but is pushing for NYC to get an exemption from that shit sandwich of a bill. Apparently it's good enough for everyone else but not New York City. Perfect Weiner quote with regards to getting NYC an ObamaCare exemption? “I’m just looking internally to whether the city can save money and have more control over its own destiny.”

If I find out that Dr. Paul is a sex freak, it won't stop me from supporting him. He's not allowed it to affect his ability to support and defend liberty. If I find out that the person who checks me out at Walmart likes to get gang banged, that doesn't affect their ability to check me out. If a fire fighter likes sucking dick in public restrooms... that doesn't mean they can't stop my house from burning to the ground.

Just get over yourselves and these bullshit non-issues. If you want to discuss Weiner and other politicians... come at me with some substance or shut the fuck up. Or you can post in the thread about Scott Brown's childhood or something... it's about the same level.

[lily]

character isnt unimportant and we dont disagree on billy boy-im just saying strategically it would have been better to attack him on more pragmatic grounds-the whole thing degenrated into a circus for the tabloids

It sounds like you're blaming anyone who voiced a complaint about him, rather than acknowledging that people reap what they sow. If you remember, he was in the middle of a lawsuit for sexual harassment (Paula Jones) and that is what led to Monicagate, because she was subpoenaed as a witness, to show a pattern of sexual harassment. (which, btw, even if it's consensual is still sexual harassment if there are rewards/negative consequences in one's job depending on whether they said yes or no) So you said "it would have been better to attack him on pragmatic grounds"... Well, the reality is that his own actions brought about the scandals and lawsuits that he was up to his neck in... and that was just the tip of the iceberg, there were numerous other cover-ups and scandals that the press (for whatever reason) did NOT talk about, they stuck with the more sensational ones like Monica. Personally, I think that was probably on purpose, to distract the public from the serious scandals and crimes, but anyway.

No need to over-intellectualize this phenomenon. In layman's terms, it's called making excuses, and people make excuses because they have low standards, for themselves and therefore for others.

The majority of people are just mediocre. They lie when convenient, are content to let life pass them by in shitty, dishonest, passionless marriages without even trying to comprehend the meaning of commitment. They would prefer to watch TV than try to talk to their spouses or prepare a decent evening meal and they prefer to jerk off to porn than to deal with the complexities of intimacy. They assume that they are performing their civic duty by voting for Republicans or Democrats, because after all, that's the only choice we have, right?

They expect very little from their own lives and consequently, they don't expect much from the people they elect to represent them in government. If their representatives lie to their faces, so what? What's the big deal? You can't really expect politicians to be better than us voters, can you? I mean, like, everyone does it, right? Lie, cheat, steal if the opportunity arises, just don't do anything really major, and above all, don't get caught.

Consider neutrino as an example. This is a 33-year old man who is a virgin and works at a minimum wage job, even though he's not stupid or disabled. These facts articulate the kind of standards he sets for his own life. It's no accident that he's OK with a complete mediocrity like Anthony Weiner in the US Congress. He trusts a known liar (Weiner) to draw a distinction between those matters in which lying is OK ("private life") and those matters in which lying is not-OK (WMD in Iraq), as long as the liar is a Democrat. Setting higher standards, either for himself or for the politicians who represent him -- that would require some effort, some thought, some nuance, and therefore, it's out of the question.

Naturally, the people elected to Congress are just as mediocre in their own way, even if they're more ambitious, and if the voters accept lying, duplicity, cheating, and the use of public policy as a means for personal enrichment and career advancement, there's no reason in the world for a politician to hold him/herself to a higher standard.

I guess you're right, many people do have such low standards for themselves that they inevitably also have low standards for others. I also think a lot of it apathy... People are just so dang apathetic that we've almost gotten to the point where corruption in government doesn't even bother people enough to do anything... Heck, as long as they have their tv shows, and a roof over their head, who cares what is going on in Washington or in the rest of the world, right? That mentality can only last for so long.... Eventually it will lead to something major, because if we willingly hand our country over to crooks and traitors, they WILL take advantage of that apathy and stupidity. Maybe it has been happening so slowly and gradually that a lot of people don't even notice anything wrong, but the point will come where people finally realize we're like frogs sitting in boiling water, and it will be too late to do something about it.

Character informs on the whole person. You are correct, lily, when you say we examine a person's past and overall standard of behavior to decide if we want to risk entrusting them with authority or for that matter, anything. We look at a person's debt repayment history to determine if we want to loan them more money. We look at their criminal background before we trust them to take care of our children. That's why attorneys try so hard to impeach the character of opposing witnesses. Bottom line, character matters.

Yes, and this is what is so weird to me. When a person applies for a job at a good company, there's usually a strict hiring process, they check out the person's credit history, they do a background check, etc, etc. To be a nanny (through an agency) I had to go through a background check, to make sure of course that I didn't have any felonies, etc. In the business world, or in organizations, leaders are held to a higher standard than the average Joe Schmo, yet in politics....for some odd reason, many people don't think they should be held to a higher standard.... In fact, they're usually held to a LOWER standard than you or I. If I had a job at a good company, and I was up to my eyeballs in lawsuits againts me, and I had at least one scandal per week, and numerous associates that were convicted of crimes, would they ask me to resign or let me go? Heck yeah, who would want someone like that in their company? Yet, as we saw with Slick, his staunchly partisan supporters defended him no matter what, and like robots, continually defended him and pretended he was the victim, and anyone who said anything bad about him were the bad ones. What is it about politics that causes people to lose all common sense and wisdom? I think people forget - politicians are public servants - they work for US, not the other way around, and there is no need to treat them like kings, because the things they do will eventually have an affect on all of us. So why not be smart and hold their feet to the fire? If someone has proven themselves to be corrupt, a liar, or total phony, then why defend them? That is utter stupidity, imo, when there are tons of other people out there who would not only do a much better job, but not have that cloak of corruption hanging over their heads.

[lily]

I don't care what a politician does on their own time. I only care about how they do their job. Who gives a fuck if Wiener was flashing his dick to perfectly legal adult women? I care more about his voting record than the notches in his belt. He is on the wrong side of nearly every issue. He supported ObamaCare but is pushing for NYC to get an exemption from that shit sandwich of a bill. Apparently it's good enough for everyone else but not New York City. Perfect Weiner quote with regards to getting NYC an ObamaCare exemption? “I’m just looking internally to whether the city can save money and have more control over its own destiny.”

If I find out that Dr. Paul is a sex freak, it won't stop me from supporting him. He's not allowed it to affect his ability to support and defend liberty. If I find out that the person who checks me out at Walmart likes to get gang banged, that doesn't affect their ability to check me out. If a fire fighter likes sucking dick in public restrooms... that doesn't mean they can't stop my house from burning to the ground.

Just get over yourselves and these bullshit non-issues. If you want to discuss Weiner and other politicians... come at me with some substance or shut the fuck up. Or you can post in the thread about Scott Brown's childhood or something... it's about the same level.

^ This is the exact problem. This is one of the reasons why our country is so screwed up. And you didn't even really respond to the points made in the OP, you completely ignored them. And you also seem to have misunderstood something important here. Character is not soley about one's sexual conduct. That is just one aspect of a person's character, but there are other things such as honesty, sincerity, reliablity, courage, loyalty, a sense of justice, I could go on and on. What you ignored in the OP is that those things aren't things that we can put into boxes. A person either has them or they don't. You can't be a total slimeball in your "personal life" and be an honest, good person in one's work, because a person's character is who they are when no one is looking. How is that so hard to understand?

[lily]

Also Dick, this is not about that Weiner guy. It's about looking at why we have corruption in government and the question, do we get the government we deserve? Is it because we are apathetic and really don't care much about who we elect to be our "leaders"? I think the answer is obvious. As Lulu accurately put it on another thread, if you settle for crap, you'll get crap. So true.

[Dick Tator]

Also Dick, this is not about that Weiner guy. It's about looking at why we have corruption in government and the question, do we get the government we deserve? Is it because we are apathetic and really don't care much about who we elect to be our "leaders"? I think the answer is obvious. As Lulu accurately put it on another thread, if you settle for crap, you'll get crap. So true.

We've got a bullshit government because of idiots (like you apparently) who care more about non-issues than real issues. Obama seems to be a great father and husband. Doesn't make him a good President. He could lie to his family and cheat on his wife every day for his entire term and it would have no bearing on his job performance.

[lily]

We've got a bullshit government because of idiots (like you apparently) who care more about non-issues than real issues. Obama seems to be a great father and husband. Doesn't make him a good President. He could lie to his family and cheat on his wife every day for his entire term and it would have no bearing on his job performance.

You still don't get it, you still didn't respond to any of the points on this thread, and you still seem to think this is about something way more narrow than what it is actually about.

Let me try to put this in a different way for you. Please answer these questions: Do you think honesty matters in a leader? Yes or no? Do you think that loyalty and sincerity matter in a leader, yes or no? Do you think that how one views human life matters in a leader, yes or no?

[fat mike]

It sounds like you're blaming anyone who voiced a complaint about him, rather than acknowledging that people reap what they sow. If you remember, he was in the middle of a lawsuit for sexual harassment (Paula Jones) and that is what led to Monicagate, because she was subpoenaed as a witness, to show a pattern of sexual harassment. (which, btw, even if it's consensual is still sexual harassment if there are rewards/negative consequences in one's job depending on whether they said yes or no) So you said "it would have been better to attack him on pragmatic grounds"... Well, the reality is that his own actions brought about the scandals and lawsuits that he was up to his neck in... and that was just the tip of the iceberg, there were numerous other cover-ups and scandals that the press (for whatever reason) did NOT talk about, they stuck with the more sensational ones like Monica. Personally, I think that was probably on purpose, to distract the public from the serious scandals and crimes, but anyway.

and you dont think the opposition had any responsibility to redirect the publics attention? or did they bask in billys infamy? youre not addressing the point-sure the man was wrong and deserved to be punished but the gop acted like they didnt have anythign else to hang their hat on-you really think the circus was necessary or useful?? maybe you like cheesy tabloids?
what he did to the country is more important than waht he did to those girls -quit acting like im trying to exonerate him..read my first post maybe?

[lily]

and you dont think the opposition had any responsibility to redirect the publics attention? or did they bask in billys infamy? youre not addressing the point-sure the man was wrong and deserved to be punished but the gop acted like they didnt have anythign else to hang their hat on-you really think the circus was necessary or useful?? maybe you like cheesy tabloids?
what he did to the country is more important than waht he did to those girls -quit acting like im trying to exonerate him..read my first post maybe?

I know you're not trying to exonerate him, but you didn't understand what I was saying. It's not the big bad "GOP" who brought about the scandals. HE DID. He was in a lawsuit, which is what led to the other fiasco, because the lawyers were trying to show the pattern of his behavior. How is that the fault of the GOP? Unless you're trying to claim that Paula Jones was an undercover GOP operative, or something silly like that, which totally ignores the fact that he has a long, well-documented history of sexual harassment, including even a rape charge.

The closest you've got is to say that the MEDIA chose to focus on the more sensational scandals (like Monicagate) but as I said before, personally I think that was probably to distract the public from the more serious crimes and scandals. And the media (which is practically the right arm of the government) is not synonymous with "the GOP" - the media are pretty much the same ilk of people who got him into office in the first place.

[fat mike]

You still don't get it, you still didn't respond to any of the points on this thread, and you still seem to think this is about something way more narrow than what it is actually about.

Let me try to put this in a different way for you. Please answer these questions: Do you think honesty matters in a leader? Yes or no? Do you think that loyalty and sincerity matter in a leader, yes or no? Do you think that how one views human life matters in a leader, yes or no?

was the scandal stuff about starrs quest for fame? abso freaking lutely-dick is right-show us the beef-if obama is wrong on the issues i dont care if he loves his wife

[fat mike]

you really dont think the right can manipulate the media? did anyone stand up and say this is a waste of time?

and to the charge that clinton orchestrated the dad blamed thing-it cost him a bunch of money and hamstringed his effectiveness at his job-this was starrs baby-whine and cry all you want that the media is in love with the dems-the media just likes sex.. youre off base..

[lily]

was the scandal stuff about starrs quest for fame? abso freaking lutely-dick is right-show us the beef-if obama is wrong on the issues i dont care if he loves his wife

I have no idea what your first sentence means. Secondly, why are you focusing on Obama? Still letting partisan loyalty rule? Finally, I guess I misunderstood your first post. I thought you agreed that character matters, apparently you don't.