Please answer this question.

[hadit]

Jarik: it is really pointless trying to convince the theist on this board, heck all theist their god is bad. As they cannot critically think, they are blinkered and biased to there own personal (SPAG(Self Projection As God)ed) deity, they cannot see the immorality in their own god as it is a personification of themselves. Hence why they cannot see the immorality in the acts and actions, they allow their god to take.
If you think of them as suffering with a virus (of the mind) it is easier to allow them to ramble on with their assumptions, the only reason you should post your thoughts or rebuttals, should be for other who aren't so closed/minded to see the rational/logical side of the argument.

Basically, you are saying that justice is immoral.

[pavlos]

Jarik as I said earlier in post #80 "If you think of them as suffering with a virus (of the mind) it is easier to allow them to ramble on with their assumptions, the only reason you should post your thoughts or rebuttals, should be for others who aren't so closed/minded to see the rational/logical side of the argument."
Case in point, The very next post after mine (post #81)

There is no justice under god, it is immoral.

[hadit]

There is no justice under god, it is immoral.

You don't even have the authority to define justice for all of mankind, why do you think you have the authority to define it for God Himself and hold Him accountable to your limited understanding? You are, in essence, setting yourself up as God when you are not. This is the arrogance of man asserting itself in a most ugly way.

[pavlos]

Jarik About now you should be getting the gist to what I've been saying. (considering post #81 and #83) As I've said they cannot critically think, they are blinkered and biased to there own personal (SPAG(Self Projection As God)ed) deity, it is all pure irrational Woo Woo BS.

[lily]

You don't even have the authority to define justice for all of mankind, why do you think you have the authority to define it for God Himself and hold Him accountable to your limited understanding? You are, in essence, setting yourself up as God when you are not. This is the arrogance of man asserting itself in a most ugly way.

What I think is ironic is that many of the hardcore atheists here seem to have a genuine moral indignation towards God... but what they don't realize is that they're showing that they believe there is such a thing as right/wrong, or good/evil. They're put themselves in a corner - if they say there ISN'T an objective standard that applies to everyone, then all they're doing is sharing their opinion, which is meaningless. But if they say that an objective absolute standard DOES exist, then who is the Lawgiver? It doesn't go along with their naturalistic worldview. What's funny is they don't even realize they're borrowing from the Christian worldview, while out of the other side of their mouth bashing it.

[GanjaFreebird]

I think that all people who argue that their religious beliefs are facts...are idiots, first of all.

That also shows that they aren't even secure in their spiritual beliefs as they waste a lot of their time arguing about it when there isn't any use to it.

I'm confident in my own spiritual beliefs, that's why I have no interest arguing about them being true or not...I don't CARE if you see God the way I do, the way I see it is that there is a truth and many roads to find it, and I'm going to do it my way because God created me the way I am and gave me my logical abilities and I will trust what I believe God gave me to the fullest extent without confusing facts with any non-facts, regardless if I believe in them or not.

Does God have the right to take away life? Of course not, however, I don't think He does, as He doesn't have control over everything like that, else, he would be the "asshole" that anti-religious people claim he is. The greatest lesson from the Torah/Bible that you can learn is that there's no perfection, in absolutely nobody and nothing, however, there is improvement and advancing, and I believe this is what both humans and God have experienced and will continue to experience, although on different levels of course.

[pavlos]

Lol, no atheists here don't have a moral indignation towards god, that would be infantile. They have it towards the immoral beliefs of the theist, they are dumbstruck as to how so called good people can hold beliefs in such irrational and totally evil things, They can't belief how morally inept theist can be. Who else would conjure up such evil deities, and then justify them. The only reasons for this must be either they are completely amoral or they suffer from a virus of the mind.
I'd prefer to go with the latter.

[Šñøü†ê®]

I think that all people who argue that their religious beliefs are facts...are idiots, first of all.

Gonga, ZIONISM is based on a religion, right? You, Teller, and Cowpunk and some other trolls argue on behalf of ZIONISM, right? Well the conclusion we must reach ain't rocket science if you believe what you typed there! But you are probably not a total idiot because unlike Teller, you do not claim to host a CNN show!

Religion is interesting to discuss mainly when the discussers are not accused of being this or that. That violates the shalt not bear false witness Commandment found in the Old Testament! You, Teller, and Cowpunk and some other trolls are guilty of violating that, but the New Testament provides a way to deal with your violations!

[Jarik]

Except that He has not done so. He is perfectly within His right to deliver justice, and will do so again, only this time for the last time.

I've reviewed this post multiple times... once with a magnifying glass just in case... and have yet to find any logical rebuttals.

[Jarik]

What I think is ironic is that many of the hardcore atheists here seem to have a genuine moral indignation towards God... but what they don't realize is that they're showing that they believe there is such a thing as right/wrong, or good/evil. They're put themselves in a corner - if they say there ISN'T an objective standard that applies to everyone, then all they're doing is sharing their opinion, which is meaningless. But if they say that an objective absolute standard DOES exist, then who is the Lawgiver? It doesn't go along with their naturalistic worldview. What's funny is they don't even realize they're borrowing from the Christian worldview, while out of the other side of their mouth bashing it.

The lawgiver, or more correctly, lawgivers, were hundreds of people that over time convinced people that morality was good for humanity and wrote it down under the name of God so they would believe it with religious fervor.

It just so happens that a lot of the big morals we accept today are good for humanity in keeping it alive and well. Is that not ironic? I tells me that we say "don't kill" and "don't steal" because these actions stir up trouble that's bad for the human race, thus our instincts tell us to frown upon them.

[AlbertJ]

Lol, no atheists here don't have a moral indignation towards god, that would be infantile. They have it towards the immoral beliefs of the theist, they are dumbstruck as to how so called good people can hold beliefs in such irrational and totally evil things, They can't belief how morally inept theist can be. Who else would conjure up such evil deities, and then justify them. The only reasons for this must be either they are completely amoral or they suffer from a virus of the mind.
I'd prefer to go with the latter.

Moral indignation against theists does not constitute atheism.

[Jarik]

Moral indignation against theists does not constitute atheism.

He didn't claim that it did, he was speaking in relativity to him and I and he was correct.

[lily]

The lawgiver, or more correctly, lawgivers, were hundreds of people that over time convinced people that morality was good for humanity and wrote it down under the name of God so they would believe it with religious fervor.

It just so happens that a lot of the big morals we accept today are good for humanity in keeping it alive and well. Is that not ironic? I tells me that we say "don't kill" and "don't steal" because these actions stir up trouble that's bad for the human race, thus our instincts tell us to frown upon them.

If you think morality is man-made, then you don't believe in objective moral truths... you believe in moral relativism.

And if you believe in moral relativism, then your claims that God is "unjust", "abusive" or "bad" hold no weight, because according to your own worldview, there is no such thing as objective moral truths...there is no such thing as a real right/wrong, it's all relative. In other words, all you have is your opinion, which is no better or worse than anyone else's.

Do you see now how your argument is self-defeating?

[AlbertJ]

He didn't claim that it did, he was speaking in relativity to him and I and he was correct.

I read and understood exactly what he said.

[GanjaFreebird]

Gonga, ZIONISM is based on a religion, right?

Not really, and most of Zionism's founding fathers were atheist/agnostic/secular Jews. It's rather based on hisotry and culture if anything.

You, Teller, and Cowpunk and some other trolls argue on behalf of ZIONISM, right? Well the conclusion we must reach ain't rocket science if you believe what you typed there! But you are probably not a total idiot because unlike Teller, you do not claim to host a CNN show!

The fact that the Jews owned Eretz Israel 2000 years ago is a historical fact that was proved through historical and biological evidence, nothing to do with Judaism or the Torah which is a matter of one's personal beliefs.

Religion is interesting to discuss mainly when the discussers are not accused of being this or that. That violates the shalt not bear false witness Commandment found in the Old Testament! You, Teller, and Cowpunk and some other trolls are guilty of violating that, but the New Testament provides a way to deal with your violations!

My Hebrew, we do not believe in the New Testament to begin with.

[Jarik]

If you think morality is man-made, then you don't believe in objective moral truths... you believe in moral relativism.

And if you believe in moral relativism, then your claims that God is "unjust", "abusive" or "bad" hold no weight, because according to your own worldview, there is no such thing as objective moral truths...there is no such thing as a real right/wrong, it's all relative. In other words, all you have is your opinion, which is no better or worse than anyone else's.

Do you see now how your argument is self-defeating?

But moral relativism can still be used to call God unjust. Above all things, the survival of the species and the health of our fellow humans is our priority and we can make relative morals that compliment this goal (most of which agree with the big morals followed today)

If God committed the atrocities told of in the old writings, including genocide and enslavement, then he is immoral according to these relative morals because genocide and enslavement are bad for the survival and health of humanity.

The exception being genocide used to solve world hunger or something, which could actually be good for humanity given the correct circumstances.

[Jarik]

I read and understood exactly what he said.

I read and understood exactly what you said

[lily]

But moral relativism can still be used to call God unjust. Above all things, the survival of the species and the health of our fellow humans is our priority and we can make relative morals that compliment this goal (most of which agree with the big morals followed today)

If God committed the atrocities told of in the old writings, including genocide and enslavement, then he is immoral according to these relative morals because genocide and enslavement are bad for the survival and health of humanity.

The exception being genocide used to solve world hunger or something, which could actually be good for humanity given the correct circumstances.

So much to reply to here. With all due respect, you have misunderstood a number of things. But I really have to go cook dinner, so I'll try to get back to this later.

[hadit]

Lol, no atheists here don't have a moral indignation towards god, that would be infantile. They have it towards the immoral beliefs of the theist, they are dumbstruck as to how so called good people can hold beliefs in such irrational and totally evil things, They can't belief how morally inept theist can be. Who else would conjure up such evil deities, and then justify them. The only reasons for this must be either they are completely amoral or they suffer from a virus of the mind.
I'd prefer to go with the latter.

As lily so adroitly pointed out, you cannot simultaneously insist there is nothing greater than man himself while proclaiming a belief in the concept of universal good and universal evil. Either there is something greater than man who sets the standard or you are projecting yourself as God. Hmmmm, that sounds familiar. The bottom line remains, God has the right to take life.

[hadit]

I've reviewed this post multiple times... once with a magnifying glass just in case... and have yet to find any logical rebuttals.

You fail to deal with justice.