Take the political compass test and post your results, dammit.

[optimus]

[lily]

Ron Paul is anti abortion. That's not the libertarian view. Same with his opposition to IDs for illegals. Was also in favor of don't ask, don't tell. A libertarian view would allow the individual to tell anyone he wanted. Also voted to ban gay adoptions. He's also anti-free trade, which isn't the libertarian view. Also wanted to end birthright citizenship. Voted for a border fence and a bunch of other crack-downs on illegals . . . not a libertarian point of view.

He may be more libertarian than most Republicans, but that doesn't mean he's Mr. Freedom.

It's true that he is against abortion but it's your opinion that "that is not the libertarian view", many would disagree.

There are many libertarians who are pro-life, and based on the principle that we have the obligation to not aggress against or violate the rights of anyone else, it really comes down to whether or not one views the preborn baby as a human being.

This site explains it all: http://www.l4l.org/index.html

[TrailHiker]

What is extremist? Other than some ranting teabaggers at townhalls, what is extremist about our government? We have so many freedoms other countries have never had so I don't understand what you're talking about.

Your reply is a good example. Thanx for playing


BTW Lulu, you have managed to comment a couple times on this thread but I don't see your test results. Am I missing something?

[Java_man]

It's true that he is against abortion but it's your opinion that "that is not the libertarian view", many would disagree.

There are many libertarians who are pro-life, and based on the principle that we have the obligation to not aggress against or violate the rights of anyone else, it really comes down to whether or not one views the preborn baby as a human being.

This site explains it all: http://www.l4l.org/index.html

Boo is correct

1.4 Abortion

Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.

http://www.lp.org/platform

[Lulu]

BTW Lulu, you have managed to comment a couple times on this thread but I don't see your test results. Am I missing something?

I was around where Ralph Nadar was. Actually Saison and I were off by a box or two. If I remember is was 2 over and 4 down or 4 down and 2 over, something like that.

[BooRadley]

She's going to say that's the party's view, but not all libertarians agree with the party, JM.

Hey, how many of the old bandwagon "conservatives" are now bandwagon "libertarians"? I haven't been around to see the big switch.

[lily]

Boo is correct


http://www.lp.org/platform

He used a small l when he said "libertarian", he did not say "The Libertarian Party"

There are many libertarians who disagree, in fact it seems that increasingly more libertarians are recognizing that it goes against libertarian principles to deny the most basic right- the right to life, of an innocent baby in the womb.

The LP or any political party is not what determines what is actually true, and a political party CAN be wrong. Anything who thinks a political party CANNOT be wrong should have their head examined.

[AlbertJ]

Economic Left/Right: 4.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.67

[lily]

She's going to say that's the party's view, but not all libertarians agree with the party, JM.

Hey, how many of the old bandwagon "conservatives" are now bandwagon "libertarians"? I haven't been around to see the big switch.

I don't call myself a libertarian, and I don't like to use the word conservative (because too many people now equate it with neocons)... but as our founders knew that a government can get too big and oppressive, I also strongly believe in protecting our God-given freedom and rights.

I just happen to disagree that that there is a "right" to murder a preborn baby, for no reason other than convenience.

[AlbertJ]

Anyone who thinks the church CANNOT be wrong should have their head examined.

[BooRadley]

I don't like to use the word conservative (because too many people now equate it with neocons)

The word "conservative" is now the same dirty word that the word "liberal" was back in the '90's. That's thanks to all the same stuff you've seen the rightwingers here post for the last several years. That's what people think the word "conservative" means now (because that's what the word "conservative" means now). I expect a lot of the people who made that so to start calling themselves "libertarians" now, to try to escape their own stigma.

I just happen to disagree that that there is a "right" to murder a preborn baby, for no reason other than convenience.

Until you can prove that a fertilized egg is a human being, it's just your opinion that it is one. Having the government come in and force other people to live by your personal opinions isn't libertarian. When science can prove that a fertilized egg is the same as a living baby, then the egg will have the same rights as a baby. Until then, you're attempting to use the government to force other people to live by your personal beliefs, and that's as un-libertarian as it gets.

[Java_man]

Hey, how many of the old bandwagon "conservatives" are now bandwagon "libertarians"? I haven't been around to see the big switch.

they "never supported bush" you know

[lily]

Until you can prove that a fertilized egg is a human being, it's just your opinion that it is one. Having the government come in and force other people to live by your personal opinions isn't libertarian. When science can prove that a fertilized egg is the same as a living baby, then the egg will have the same rights as a baby. Until then, you're attempting to use the government to force other people to live by your personal beliefs, and that's as un-libertarian as it gets.

You're using words deceptively. A zygote IS a human being, but when we talk about abortion (the kind you go to a doctor for) we're not talking about a fertilized egg, most abortions take place between 6-12 weeks, I think most commonly around 7-9 weeks, and by that time your "fertilized egg" rhetoric flies out the window.

What is being sliced up and sucked out a tube is a baby with a beating heart, a body, a face, brain waves, arms, legs, even fingers and toes later in the first trimester.

So, I know your "fertilized egg" mantra may be a good tool for deception, but that's not what we're talking about here. Unless you are referring to the day after pill.

[BooRadley]

they "never supported bush" you know

Indeed. After voting for him twice and screaming down anyone who questioned him, they never really supported him.

It's like clockwork.

You're using words deceptively. A zygote IS a human being, but when we talk about abortion (the kind you go to a doctor for) we're not talking about a fertilized egg, most abortions take place between 6-12 weeks, I think most commonly around 7-9 weeks, and by that time your "fertilized egg" rhetoric flies out the window.

What is being sliced up and sucked out a tube is a baby with a beating heart, a body, a face, brain waves, arms, legs, even fingers and toes later in the first trimester.

So, I know your "fertilized egg" mantra may be a good tool for deception, but that's not what we're talking about here. Unless you are referring to the day after pill.

When does a fertilized egg become a human being, and how can you prove it's a human being at that point? A long time ago, over 200 years ago, we used prevailing wisdom to decide when a person gets rights, and it was decided that it was at birth -- for example, we have birthright citizenship, not fertilizationright citizenship. We consider someone to be born on their birth day, not on their conception day.

If you can prove that a zygote is the same thing as a newborn baby, and deserves the same rights, then you'll get your ban on abortion.

I just happen to disagree that that there is a "right" to murder a preborn baby, for no reason other than convenience.

Do you know how very few people want to ban abortion in all circumstances?

[AlbertJ]

True conservatives support womens rights.

[lily]

Indeed. After voting for him twice and screaming down anyone who questioned him, they never really supported him.

I hope you're not referring to me because I never voted for either Bush, I voted for Perot and then I didn't vote in the last couple elections. As for others, there are many people here who have no problem saying they voted for Bush, because they felt he was the lesser of two evils. Most of them are not ashamed of it. So I don't know who you guys are babbling about.

When does a fertilized egg become a human being, and how can you prove it's a human being at that point? A long time ago, over 200 years ago, we used prevailing wisdom to decide when a person gets rights, and it was decided that it was at birth -- for example, we have birthright citizenship, not fertilizationright citizenship. We consider someone to be born on their birth day, not on their conception day.

If you can prove that a zygote is the same thing as a newborn baby, and deserves the same rights, then you'll get your ban on abortion.



Do you know how very few people want to ban abortion in all circumstances?

This isn't an abortion thread. But it's undeniable that the preborn baby IS a member of the human species (if not, tell me what species it is) and IS alive, a living being. Therefore, a human being. Go to that site I gave you the link to (Libertarians for Life) and read the articles there. There are some really good articles, that demolish every argument the proaborts put forth.

[CCC]

True conservatives support womens rights.

True conservatives do support women's rights.

True conservatives also don't call abortion a "right." Calling abortion a "woman's right" is as absurd as calling rape a "men's right." Plus, statistically a greater number of victims of abortion are female.

[CCC]

A long time ago, over 200 years ago, we used prevailing wisdom to decide when a person gets rights, and it was decided that it was at birth -- for example, we have birthright citizenship, not fertilizationright citizenship. We consider someone to be born on their birth day, not on their conception day.

Over 200 years ago women did not have the same rights as white men.
Over 200 years ago minorities, particularly slaves from African nations, did not have the same rights as white men.

Figures you would use racist logic and archaic science in justifying abortion. The slaveowners mentality was to redefine a person in his own bigoted, racist image to justify depriving of another human being his/her rights. History repeats itself. It was disgusting then; it's disgusting now. The slave advocate is now the abortion advocate. You must be proud of yourself to belong to such a select group.

[BooRadley]

Now THAT's funny. I've never seen anyone try to twist abortion into a race issue like that. A+

[BooRadley]

Anyway, the point is that banning abortion is the conservative, not the libertarian, viewpoint, and that's what Ron Paul supports, along with a whole lot of other conservative positions. He's only a little bit libertarian . . . like in that graph.