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Cd. 01-31-2005 08:40 PM

Seydlitz Division: Germans against the Nazis
 
http://216.239.39.104/translate_c?hl...l%3Den%26lr%3D

Quote:

The Seydlitz troop

To 60. Anniversary of the establishment of the national committee "free Germany" (part of IV): On 11./12. September 1943 in Lunowo with Moscow the federation of German officers was created

"without generals that does not become anything." The realization in July 1943 with the national committee "free Germany" (NKFD) of developed pluralistischen, by the majority combat federation for the rescue of Germany before the disaster, formed from prisoner of war armed forces member, was general. And in such a way few days already set after the conference of establishment of Krasnogorsk an active traffic between Moscow and Lunowo (here the NKFD its seat had taken) and the different prisoner-of-war camps in, in which the officers and generals had taken obligatory accomodation. With the end of the battle around Stalingrad and the surrender of the 6. Friedrich Paulus of approximately 20 further generals and 2500 officers was nevertheless guessed/advised army into the shank beside general field marshal: Division commanders, general staff officers, regiment and battalion commanders, court-martial advice, armed forces clergyman...

The experience Stalingrad - the promise not-held of their highest commander to frighten the including those of the Goebbelspropaganda for dead explained survivor, who in the following proclaimed total war - had let many go on distance to Hitler and Co., but even plausible arguments, which resulted alone from the current war process at all fronts to North Africa and Italy, were not enough, to draw from the already emotional carried out break the conclusions. The performed oath, the alleged landesverrat, the prejudices opposite the Soviet Union like at all, the fear of a bolschewisierten postwar Germany proved to communism as strong barriers.

Envoys of the committee, soldier and officers just like Politemigranten, in addition, Soviet representatives traveled repeated to the camps Susdal, Krasnogorsk or Woikowo, in order to recruit in particular with the generals for the goals of the national committee. Against the existing doubts and reservations they set the necessity convincingly justified in the communist manifesto at people and armed forces not to make with the war conclusion which can be won to be able to still turn away with the fall of Hitler and the feedback of the armed forces Germany threatening disaster.

Not least the few higher officers, who than guests could see the NKFD Gruendungskonferenz to follow without being already ready, showed themselves "free Germany" to the movement than initiators independent officer federation. Colonel Luitpold Steidle, a regiment commander, and Colonel Hans Hans-Guenther van Hooven, Nachrichtenfuehrer of the 6. Army, as well as lieutenant colonel Alfred Bredt, supplying boss of the IITH army corps of the Paulus army, belonged finally to the prominent members of an appropriate initiative group to the establishment of such an organization. Their preparations experienced for the initially mentioned reasons both from the national committee and from the Soviet authorities support.

Those was also bitterly necessary, because most higher officers locked for the arguments of their comrades persistently. Apart from verbal attacks it came already times to palpablenesses; Colonel general Heitz, Chef of an army corps, fell thereby even completely from the role, when he "created" and "traitor" threatened Steidle with impacts.

While field marshal Paulus behaved reserved, even a statement against the "Abtruennigen" signed (which he took back soon thereafter however again), showed up only four generals the arguments opposite more accessible. Their personal Stalingrad experiences were not displaced and the military Subordination to the victim please. There the general of the artillery was Walther of Seydlitz, commander of the left army corps, which had been relieved still in the boiler of its post, because he had instructed on 25 January 1943 to stop the fight. The two major generals petrols Korfes and Martin Lattmann were, only in Stalingrad appointed division commanders there. And in addition came lieutenant general Alexander noble from Daniels, which as one of the first division commanders led troop remainders still before the forced surrender of the entire army after negotiations with Soviet parliament eras its into the shank.

Whereby the insights took occasionally very strange ways. From general Korfes about is delivered, like it a Soviet professor Eugen Varga, a well-known economist, with its own weapons struck, by reminding him quasi before met crew, in a prominent occupied round of talks, of its, refusal of a war fixed expressed in former times in writing in an essay against the Soviet Union.

Seydlitz, for which from its dislike against Hitler's war guidance also into the shank did not make make no secret, had not forgotten, how officers of its staff died with the Abmarsch into the shank on 31 January under the balls of German machine guns. And it reminded its comrades with the nocturnal call "rope rye" in addition, to the happening of 1812/1813 and the GermanRussian fraternity in arms forged at that time against Napoleon, into which one of its ancestors had been involved.

Thus finally almost hundred armed forces officers appeared themselves on 11./12. September in Lunowo with Moscow, in order to constitute the federation of German officers. The fact that the prepared documents over the tasks and goals of the BDO as well as a call had to be agreed upon to generals and officers of the armed forces before with the Soviet page should not surprise; the constitution of the federation nevertheless took place in its sphere of influence.

In the process of the establishment conference first Colonel van Hooven spoke about the military situation. Its result: "the total war is become totally offering no prospects... Therefore it is a compelling requirement of the reason and the humanity to terminate this war and close peace, before it is too late." Colonel Steidle justified the goal of falling Hitler's rule among other things with referring to the barrierless breach of law and so far ignoring of the life never known by the Nazi regime. General Seydlitz demanded the fall of Hitler and the rapid completion of the war as requirement of the hour. "the fight for the release of Germany and the completion of the war requires the union of all forces, good will is and the same goals zustreben... without consideration for a party and occupation, for class and conditions, on konfessionelle and world-descriptive differences." Major general Lattmann justified the necessity to quit the oath sworn on Hitler not least with the own experiences in Stalingrad. Further contributions were concerned with the necessary propaganda measures as well as with the advertisement in the prisoner-of-war camps. For the national committee Erich Weinert, major Karl rush as a vice-president and the Gefreite Hans Zippel, which emphasized agreeing the thing in common in the goals of both organizations, spoke its president.

The choice of the governing bodies took place unanimously: President of the federation became a general Walther of Seydlitz. As vices-president Daniels, Hooven and Steidle and into the 19koepfigen executive committee also the two other generals Korfes and Lattmann were selected.

Which concerns late often maintained collection of the BDO by the national committee, then it is of the fact to remind that the connection of the officer federation was to the NKFD - regarding the most important common goals no surprise - already in the initiative group decided thing. It did not place a BDO member before not-intended completed facts. At all ran, then from available "minutes of the establishment conference", the two days in Lunowo not less kaempferisch than the two days of Krasnogorsk, apart from that there still finally common angestimmten combat song of "brothers is to be inferred to the sun, to the liberty"...

Also the admission of the NKFD officers around major Karl, taken place in Lunowo, rush, captain Ernst Hadermann and Leutnant Heinrich count von Einsiedel in the officer federation as well as on 14 September the decided extension of the selected national committee of 38 to 55 members is a voucher for the community desired. Thus Seydlitz and Daniels became vices-president of the NKFD at the same time.

The BDO nevertheless kept not only in as much its self-sufficiency as its selected governing bodies were not dissolved after the "connection"; Seydlitz remained as a vice-president of the NKFD always also a president of the BDO, which turned besides in this characteristic also repeated with specific interests to the Soviet "partners".

If they were done there, often later for instance in the GDR historiography, but not only into a pot, then might have lain in the nature of the thing: Apart from the common goals there was common front employments and - above all also - the use of the two most important media of the national committee: To the constant broadcast editorship of the transmitter "free Germany" about major Egbert von Proschlitz and Frankenberg belonged, in the editorship of the newspaper of the same name worked among other things captain Hadermann and the Majore Heinrich Homann and Herbert Stoesslein. In both media politico-military views, situation estimates of the war process from destined mouth, statements had their firm place to the international happening. In the Soviet prisoner-of-war camps one spoke already jokeful of the "general indicator", if the appearing weekly newspaper arrived.

Members of the BDO - her number grew by the way in the further war process on several thousands on - were used like member of the movement free Germany also as authorized persons at the different front sections; Colonel Steidle already mentioned practiced this function nearly without interruption of December 1943 until February 1945 with the 2. Ukrainian front - comparable a German army group - out, last with the effort around the combatless delivery of the city Breslau (Wroclaw), explained as the fortress. The handbills written by him signed it as "the authorized person of the national committee ›Freies Deutschland‹ at the local Fontabschnitt - Steidle, Colonel, Kdr. G.R. 767, 376. I.D., vice-president of the federation of German officers ".

Leeb 02-10-2005 09:02 AM

Perhaps the German's cooperating was a matter of life or death. Something like 95,000 Germans were taken prisoner at Stalingrad, only about 5,000 survived to make it back to Germany one day. The rest died in death marches or gulags.


Quote:

From 1939 on, the Gulag filled up with nationals from the USSR's enemies: Finns, Poles, Germans, Italians, Romanians, and Japanese, many of whom were held for years after 1945. Although, technically, German prisoners of war were under the jurisdiction of GUPVI (Main Directorate for POW and Internee Affairs), they were nonetheless used no differently than other Gulag inmates. Indeed, in the first few years of the war the death rate for POWs exceeded that for non-POWs in the camps. Comparatively few German were taken alive before Stalingrad.Most were shot out of hand, many of them mutilated. Of the 95,000 German POWs captured at Stalingrad, only 5,000 survived to return home. Of the dead, some forty thousand did not survive the march from Stalingrad to the Beketovka camp, where 42,000 more perished of hunger and disease. Particularly murderous treatment was inflicted on SS POWs, many of whom, along with remnants of the Vlasov forces, were imprisoned and died on Wrangel Island.

By the war's end, the USSR held 3.4 million German soldiers prisoner. Under the provisions of the Yalta Agreement, the U.S. and U.K. had agreed to the use of German POWs in the Soviet Gulag as "reparations-in-kind." Thus, rather than repatriate them to their homeland, Stalin began incorporating this captive human booty into the work camps in the summer of 1945. Recognizing that the German prisoners of war were productive workers, Stalin ordered that they be given food rations proportionate to their work. The ration included 600 grams of black bread every day, spaghetti, a little meat, sugar, vegetables, and rice. Officers got somewhat more, while, naturally, Axis "war criminals" got less. Nonetheless, between 1941 and 1952, almost a million German POWs died in the camps. The last of the surviving POWs (10,000 men) were released from the Soviet Union in 1955, after a decade of forced labor. Approximately 1.5 million German soldiers from the Second World War are still listed as missing in action. Of an additional 875,000 German civilians abducted and transported to the camps, almost half perished....
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v21/v21n1p39_michaels.html

Cd. 02-10-2005 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leeb
Perhaps the German's cooperating was a matter of life or death. Something like 95,000 Germans were taken prisoner at Stalingrad, only about 5,000 survived to make it back to Germany one day. The rest died in death marches or gulags.




http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v21/v21n1p39_michaels.html

True. The Soviets were beasts.

The prisoners at Stalingrad were held longer than most German prisoners because they were labeled "War Criminals". Most were held until the mid 1950s. Members of several SS units suffered similarly. The worst punishment was doled out to Soviet collaborators who served in the German military. Russian, Ukrainian and other volunteers who served, often for their own survival, under General Vlasov's Russian Liberation Army or other units were ether shot outright or sent to Siberia for the rest of their lives. A very fortunate few were finally liberated from the Gulag in 1991 after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

teilhard 03-02-2005 08:20 PM

only reason they were anti-nazi is because they were caught by the russians. what's the NKFD? what about the NKVD? What about the WHITE ROSE?

Cd. 03-05-2005 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teilhard
only reason they were anti-nazi is because they were caught by the russians. what's the NKFD? what about the NKVD? What about the WHITE ROSE?

I already posted on the White Rose. That was the group in Munich founded by Hans and Sophie Schroll. They were a pacifist group of idealists. Rather sad story if you ask me. A couple of very decent and idealistic young people who died young for their beliefs. There was also the anarchist youth gangs who were active in Cologne and other cities. I did a post on that as well.

Odysseus 04-01-2005 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Criminal
True. The Soviets were beasts.

Yes, and no. While I do not want to get into a huge debate and discuss the clash if two deeply idolistic and propoganda led societies, let us not forget about a few things.

When the Germans were smashing Soviet armies and taking mass prisoners, they too were guilty of horrible attrocities. Russian POWs were kept in "camps" that consisted of nothing more then a barded wire enclosure - no buildings of any kind. They were mistreated, mistreated, and generally uncared for. Many died of starvation and disease, and in some camps, as was experienced by the Germans later in 43, incidents of cannibilism occured. The Germans also kciked Russians out of their homes in Stalingrad, stole all their livestock, warm clothes and food. There were also reports of Germans firing for fun into the columns of Russian POWs as they were marched into captivity (an event which occured by the Soviets on the Germans after the collapse of the 6th army).

Really, the Eastern front, and foremost Stalingrad, was the scene of horrible attrocities on both sides, and the absolute suffering endured by both sides was something that no person should have had to live through.

It is amazing that anyone survived that battle and the aftermath.

Cd. 04-02-2005 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Odysseus
Yes, and no. While I do not want to get into a huge debate and discuss the clash if two deeply idolistic and propoganda led societies, let us not forget about a few things.

When the Germans were smashing Soviet armies and taking mass prisoners, they too were guilty of horrible attrocities. Russian POWs were kept in "camps" that consisted of nothing more then a barded wire enclosure - no buildings of any kind. They were mistreated, mistreated, and generally uncared for. Many died of starvation and disease, and in some camps, as was experienced by the Germans later in 43, incidents of cannibilism occured. The Germans also kciked Russians out of their homes in Stalingrad, stole all their livestock, warm clothes and food. There were also reports of Germans firing for fun into the columns of Russian POWs as they were marched into captivity (an event which occured by the Soviets on the Germans after the collapse of the 6th army).

Really, the Eastern front, and foremost Stalingrad, was the scene of horrible attrocities on both sides, and the absolute suffering endured by both sides was something that no person should have had to live through.

It is amazing that anyone survived that battle and the aftermath.

Germans were no angels ether. A major reason for the German treatment of the Soviets may have to do with the fact that the USSR was not a signer of the Geneva Convention and refused to gurantee the safety of war prisoners. The Germans treated them accordingly.


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