Man that is rough! I would perfer that no abortions take place and that all children are raised in loving, caring, and financially stable homes. We all know that is not the case. I don't and I can't pass judgement on women that feel they have to go the abortion route. I do believe it is her decision to choose. I am frustrated when I hear that some women have had 3 or 4. If you can't figure out how not to get pregnant then I certainly don't want you ever raising a child. The thing is to infringe on this womans right to choose might infringe on all womens rights. It is very tough. There is a lot of grey area.

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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

The scary part about that to me is the fact that they KNOW it's wrong . . . they even go so far as to say it even looked human (eh, imagine that), but they have no regrets and know they did the right thing . . .

Okay, regardless of the side you sit on, abortion is either wrong ("it's" human) or okay ("it's NOT human"). There's no middle ground (semi-human??). So, TO ME, if you FEEL it's wrong, you agree that "it's human" therefore you just murdered not A child, but YOUR child. So, they have no regrets about killing THEIR child because somehow everyone will be better off now . . . uh, except for the dead kid, of course.

It't not the abortion that's scary to me . . . it's the fact that this couple KNEW it was wrong, FELT it was wrong, but somehow have no regrets about doing it. In every sense, that's evil REGARDLESS of your stance on abortion.

And that crack about being harder on the mother than the father, I take HEAVY exception to that. I'm a father . . . no, I'm a DAD, that kid is a father . . . no, strike that, he just happened to be there for the conception. A MAN'S first responsibility is the protection of his children, and this kid helped kill his child. The very thought of someone hurting my son is so repulsive to me, I get physically ill. No father . . . no MAN would allow a person to harm his child . . . period.

I heard it put well in a conversation with a "super mom" and a man. The woman said "I'm willing to die for my children . . . women know what sacrifice is . . ." The man returned "I'm willing to kill for my children or their mother . . . without hesitation, restraint, or remorse. Now, who would YOU rather have protecting your children?" Granted, a little extreme, but I COMPLETELY understand. A real father's love knows no bounds. I know mine doesn't.

Child? Kid? It definitely sounds terrible when you put it like that. I know that is the problem with the debate. Some are able to detatch and not feel that bad about the fetus because they are not seeing a living breathing, child or kid.
My wife had an abortion when she was 16 because it was concieved during a date rape. Now she can't have kids and I've heard her say if I had that child she would be 23 sh-t like that. Some women deal with it for awhile but feel at the time they just can't be a mother right then for whatever reason.

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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

I know the person who posted it personally. He and his GF didn't consider it a life, but rather the potential for a life. It saddens him because of what life it could have brought forth. He doesn't see it as ending a life, but preventing one. So, no they didn't think they were doing anything wrong, just something psychologically difficult.

Hope that clears it up, and for the record, that's how I feel about early term abortions. Mid to late term... that's another story.

Originally posted by pitchafit:
I know the person who posted it personally. He and his GF didn't consider it a life, but rather the potential for a life. It saddens him because of what life it could have brought forth. He doesn't see it as ending a life, but preventing one. So, no they didn't think they were doing anything wrong, just something psychologically difficult.

Hope that clears it up, and for the record, that's how I feel about early term abortions. Mid to late term... that's another story.

I'm feelin' ya.



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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

Ok, now that we have this discussion moving a little...here is the identity of the original poster (http://ultimate.infopop.com/~rageagainst/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000895.html)

So this is where the thread goes quiete...
Didn't expect it, did ya?

Well, the whole ordeal was definitely a learning experience for me, not something I plan to do again. We're taking extra precautions from now on.

Originally posted by pitchafit:
So this is where the thread goes quiete...
Didn't expect it, did ya?

Well, the whole ordeal was definitely a learning experience for me, not something I plan to do again. We're taking extra precautions from now on.



You may have f-cked 'em up a little with that one.


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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

This is from another BB where abortion was being discussed. Got a hell of a reaction, good and bad. Very educational. Makes you think.

Some of you are going to hate me for this, but I see this as education. Very few have to deal with the issue first hand. Unfortunately this weekend I became one of those few.

Our appointment was for Saturday the 26th at 10:30 am. We arrived an hour early to the clinic with protesters waiting to greet us outside the door. My GF wasn't feeling too well. She wanted to get it over with quickly. We both knew what we were getting into, but naturally we had a little remorse.

When I mentioned the protesters I'm sure a lot of you envisioned a huge group of Christian fundamentalists shouting "murderer" and "babykiller" and possibly throwing rocks. It wasn't the case. One ran up to speak to us. He said, "Please hear me out. I'm not here to judge you or to make your decisions for you but if you would please take this pamphlet...". Naturally we returned his courtesy towards us by taking the pamphlets. The pamphlet talked about the procedures concerning late term abortions which even I'll admit were a bit horrifying, but since she was anly a couple weeks pregnant, it didn't really apply to us. We ounded the corner towards the entrance to find another group singing hymns, and a few elderly Catholics walking a praying with their roseries. This isn't exactly the violent wackos we se on TV.

After filing out the paperwork and giving them my check for $335, we sat in the lobby to wait. She read about the procedure she was about to undergo inwhich the fetus is located and then vaccuumed out through a small tube. I sat, looking around the room. There were about half a dozen that also had appointments that morning. One was a teenage girl who was escorted by her friend, roughly 16 or 17. She was crying into her friends arms. I glanced around the room at the others, and there was not a smile in the place. Nobody really wanted to be there. People who get abortions do have a concience. They are not there in the best of spirits. They are not there because they want to be there.

I leaned over to my GF and said, "If you don't want to go through, I'll understand". She said that she'll be fine, she just wants to get it over with and be done with the whole mess.

She went through the door at 10:45 to start with whatever ensued, and I was left in the waiting room. I knew the procedure was 2 hours long, but never have I had a longer 2 hours. I could hardly sit still in the waiting room. I wondered if she was alright, if something was going to go wrong in such a simple procedure. I wanted to leave my seat, go to the front desk, and ask how was she doing the whole time, but I knew the clerk knew as much about how it was going as me. There was a door at the rear of the room where the patients exited afterwards. Everytime the door opened my eyes were on it hoping she would come out ok. Two patients exited, still drowsy from the drugs used to knock them out. The third patient was the teenage girl who was crying eatlier. She wasn't crying. Her face was a blank slate from the drugs still in her system. Her friend walked her out of the clinic, and I still waited. I heard a police siren outside. The protesters left pretty quickly to go protest another day, and soon after the squad car left as well. No teargas, no drama. Two hours had passed, and still no sign of my better half. I was really starting to worry, when the door swung open and she stepped out. I grabbed her purse and got to her quickly to walk her to the car. She said she was fine, but was really woozy and wanted to go home. As we were driving home she looked over to me, and said, "Let's not do this again, ok Bo?".

Apparently there was a second waiting room, before the operating room because she had a conversation with the crying teenager I mentioned earlier. The girl had looked over to her and told her just how lucky she(GF) was. My GF said, "What do you mean?" and the 16 y/o girl told her story. She had gotten pregnant from a one night stand with a guy who now, she can't locate. After looking for him, she found out that he had impregnated 3 other girls in that town, cutting off all contact afterwards. She told her how lucky she was to have me there with her, and how lucky she was not to be abandoned.

She told me how much it meant to her that I was there waiting for her when she exited the door, and she told me how much she loved me. She told me that she had seen our future kid on a screen. It was about a centimeter long with a small head, and little nubs on the side that would later become arms. At that point I could see how much harder it must be for women than for us men. We never have to see it.

In the end, neither of us are happy about it, but we don't regret the choice. What we do regret is this happening now rather than at a later time when we could have been more prepared for a child. She's recovered quite well and we're looking to the future. We know someday we'll have children, but in the mean time, we're going to be a lot more carefull to avoid the situation again. It isn't something we want to go through again.

Nah, I just think everyone's tired of talking about sucking out potential humans with vacuums. Oh, and just so you don't misinterpret what I said, I'm pro-choice, but I really wouldn't want my girlfriend to have an abortion. And also, for the record, I think the potential father should have a say in it too.

-Patrick

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"The difference between an individual terrorist and a government in some cases may be simply that the former has a bomb but doesn't have an air force."
-William Blum

Ive been party to abortions too and had no regrets, sure it wasnt my "kid" thing or girlfriend, but both I and my friend found it to be a relatively sterile and non traumatic experience, which if necessary id gladly participate in again.

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"He could not plead want of employment, nor incapacity of getting his bread in an honest way, but frankly own'd it was to get rid of the disagreeable superiority of some masters he was acquainted with and the love of novelty and change."

William Defoe on Bartholomew Roberts career of piracy

[This message has been edited by CodyChaos (edited 06-30-2001).]

Bro, we didn't go silent! Just werent online! That was written amazingly well. It must have been a traumatic experience.

I have been talking with friend/GF recently about it. IM hardcore pro choice, myself, I can't speak for. You need to be in that situation to make the decision.

I am happy however that you both feel comfortable with the choice, and that you have grown from it and learned from it.



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Manu Narayan

Pitchfit, EXCELLENT post about abortion, similar to my own recognisance of the subject and where my feelings lie on it. A similar experince happened with myself and my lady. We were both dirt poor and wondered if bringing a baby into our world at the time would be a bigger travesty for the child than having the abortion. It's obviously a VERY tough decision to make, with no RIGHT answer available. Today, I am married to my woman, and we have two beautiful children. But I am forever wondering.......

Must have been rough neero.

Can I ask you a question. Do you ever regret it? I know you said you wonder/question. But regret?

Did getting it affect your relationship at all?

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Manu Narayan

i think dat if more peeps wouldnt b out having so much sex then there would b no reason for abortion

I might as well post my general believes on abortion now.

I have no problem with it, and I think people should have the right to have an abortion. I understand why someone would not want an abortion, but that gives them no right to try to control other peoples rights and choices. The one thing I can not stand is trying to control someone else, because of your beliefs.

There will always be a need for abortions. One of the reasons is that 15 year old slut you wrote about. There are a lot of those and unfortunatly they don't all get abortions.

Another reason is irresponsible promiscuous dirtbag guys who refuse to accept responsibility in providing for and raising their sons and daughters. There are a lot of those too.

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"He could not plead want of employment, nor incapacity of getting his bread in an honest way, but frankly own'd it was to get rid of the disagreeable superiority of some masters he was acquainted with and the love of novelty and change."

William Defoe on Bartholomew Roberts career of piracy



[This message has been edited by CodyChaos (edited 07-15-2001).]

Yes, those dirt bag guys should have been aborted too. do you suppose they wee raised by sluts? How did they get to be dirt bags? Now that's a question.

Hold on . . . let me button this fire suit up . . . .

Okay, first of all, guys are WIRED for sex. The only reason we're (guys) not having sex RIGHT now is because either we just did it or there's not a good opportunity. That's about it.

Some guys are just scum, and they'll stick it in anything and walk away. That's the truth. HOWEVER, somebody had to give them permission, so they can't take all the blame.

I think part of the problem is an elimination in social pressure NOT to pump out units on a monthly basis. Basically, when I was in jr. high, if an older kid got a girl preggers, his social life was over. There were going to get married and raise the kid. As I got into high school, that pressure lessened . . . girls would date guys with kids. Then it became something like a trophy. It was a macho thing to have a couple of sophomore girls carrying little "you's" around.

I don't know . . . I just think that much of the problem is that NOTHING is a big deal, anymore. Having a baby IS a big deal. Guys need to take responsibility over what they do, but GIRLS SHOULD, TOO! And it's more than just using protection, yourself. You should let your friends now that it's NOT okay to be 16 with a baby. We have to help the ones that are, but let's not make it something "fun", you know?

Mr. Durden, once again you hit the nail on the head. The social taboos have disappeared. Religion aside, they served to limit the number of single parents and its consequent poverty and lack of values. Problem is, especially with the onset of multi-culturalism, we have begun to legitimize dysfunctional cultures. some of these take great pride in their ability to be sperm donors, not parents. I believe in the great chain saw solution. If you can't feed clothe and support your child you are guilty of child abuse. Either a chain saw or needle and thread is required to "neutralize" the offending organs.

See, how odl are you guys? Im 19, out of high school 2 years now...and the social taboos haven't been lifted, lessened, perhaps....in no way was it like a trophy. In no way was it 100% acceptable.

Now, I did come from a fairly affluent area, a subrub of LA, majority white, so we can say whatever about my warped sample...

But doesn't this ultimately go back to parents? Honestly. Who instills values/morals into our children? Who is supposed to teach them about safe sex? Who is supposed to teach them about STDs? Schools? TV? I think not...

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Manu Narayan

Originally posted by Manu:
See, how odl are you guys? Im 19, out of high school 2 years now...and the social taboos haven't been lifted, lessened, perhaps....in no way was it like a trophy. In no way was it 100% acceptable.

Now, I did come from a fairly affluent area, a subrub of LA, majority white, so we can say whatever about my warped sample...

But doesn't this ultimately go back to parents? Honestly. Who instills values/morals into our children? Who is supposed to teach them about safe sex? Who is supposed to teach them about STDs? Schools? TV? I think not...



When children are haveing children, there are NO parents to instill those values. In the inner city here there is some kind of scorecard called "jewels in the crown". Jewels being how many girls you can knock up.

Parents are the most effective medium for instilling values, but, as much as I hate it, society STILL contributes in the way of consequences. I mean, you can TELL a teenager that pre-marital sex isn't such a good idea, but if there are no societal consequences, they'll find it much easier. The same goes for any kind of "anti-social" behaviour.

To me, any kind of hedonistic uncotrolled behavious is going to flourish unless acted against. I'm not saying we turn the world into a Theocracy, but I think we DO, as a society, need to recognize that somethings just aren't terribly productive nor "good" for us. Being 16 with 3 kids is NOT a good thing. Encouraging a teenage father of 4 (with 4 different moms) to make it 5 by sleeping with him is NOT a good thing.

If society would, as a group, express a little intolerance towards planting your seed everywhere (and letting it BE planted), maybe we could a) curb the pregnancies and b) make fatherhood something special to be around for.