I really like the last part
REGENSBURG, Germany - Pope Benedict XVI said Tuesday that Islamic holy war was against God's nature and invited Muslims to join in a peaceful cultural dialogue.

In a speech at Regensburg University, Benedict made an unusual reference to jihad, or holy war — a concept used by today's Islamic extremists to justify suicide bombings and other attacks.

Benedict's address was about faith and reason, and how they cannot be separated and are essential for "that genuine dialogue of cultures and religions so urgently needed today."

Citing historic Christian commentary on holy war and forced conversion, the 79-year-old pontiff quoted from a 14th-century Byzantine emperor, Manuel II Paleologos.

"The emperor comes to speak about the issue of jihad, holy war," the pope said. "He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.'"


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060912/ap_on_re_eu/germany_pope_visit_23

I guess now they will put out a jihad hit on him .

I don't agree with catholism, but at least he has the guts to speak out against these 'radical'killers .

So, in an attempt to establish a peaceful dialogue with muslims, Benedict quotes an emperor who said that Muhammed only brought evil and inhuman things to mankind? Great diplomacy, jackass! Why don't you just call them a bunch of pig-dogs while you're at it? That'll get the peace process started. :rolleyes:

So, in an attempt to establish a peaceful dialogue with muslims, Benedict quotes an emperor who said that Muhammed only brought evil and inhuman things to mankind? Great diplomacy, jackass! Why don't you just call them a bunch of pig-dogs while you're at it? That'll get the peace process started. :rolleyes:


This kind of thinking is what empowers the beast of radical;s . peace to them is weakness . And until the so-called 'peaceful ' ones stand up they are in the same catagory ,imo.

when Al Qaeda bombs the Vatican, can we bomb Mecca?

why doesnt he say something constructive, or just shut up?
oh yea because hes a fanatic.

Feenix beat me to what I was going to say.

Besides, he sort of neglected that whole "Crusades" business in that statement, didn't he?

never mind.

Pope Benedict XVI said Tuesday that Islamic holy war was against God's nature and invited Muslims to join in a peaceful cultural dialogue.

Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.'"

That's like someone saying to Christian...let us discuss religion in peace...Jesus was a mother****ing spawn of satan. :devil:

why doesnt he say something constructive, or just shut up?
oh yea because hes a fanatic.

I don't think I have ever seen you, even once, speak out against the radical Islamic Jihadists, the ones who are all about death and destruction, terrorism, etc. (If you have, I haven't seen it) Yet, I constantly see you attacking people who speak out against them.

I know that your beleif is that it isn't "true Islam" (which isn't saying much, since Muslims state that a person has to be fluent in Arabic in order to understand the Koran, and most Muslims don't speak Arabic) but even if that's what you think, I still don't see you ever speaking out against the radical Islamofacists, all I see from you is constant defense.

I support what the Pope said, regardless of the Crusades, which are ancient history, some of which were purely defensive, and were publicly and officially apologized for by the Vatican by John Paul II.

The quote was truthful, because Mohammed was a warrior, and many have been given the choice to convert or be put to the sword since Islams' inception. Any religion that has a rule to convert or die IS evil, and I'm glad he pointed it out.

It's time we quit dancing around the fact that Islam is producing incredible amounts of evil and violence. If this offends the "good" muslims, then maybe they should rid themselves of their violent wing, so that the criticism will come to an end.

In the end, it's up to Muslims themselves to accept or reject the direction their religion has taken, and accept the fact that they're responsible for the murder and mayhem that's being committed around the world in it's name.

If it wasn't happening, no one would be pointing it out.

We also need to seperate the term "jiahd" from holy war, because for a Muslim, something as simple as giving up smoking can be considered Jihad, as well as many other struggles either personal, or as a group. The word has been misused for years.

I first heard it when the Soviets went into Afgahnistan and Muslims from all over converged there to kick them out. Since that time, it's been associated with holy war in Western cultures, when it has a much broader meaning than just that.

I don't think I have ever seen you, even once, speak out against the radical Islamic Jihadists, the ones who are all about death and destruction, terrorism, etc. (If you have, I haven't seen it) Yet, I constantly see you attacking people who speak out against them.

I know that your beleif is that it isn't "true Islam" (which isn't saying much, since Muslims state that a person has to be fluent in Arabic in order to understand the Koran, and most Muslims don't speak Arabic) but even if that's what you think, I still don't see you ever speaking out against the radical Islamofacists, all I see from you is constant defense.
Posts, not posters.

:bang:

Posts, not posters.


That's how I interpreted it - an observation about the consistent tone of messages. For what it's worth....

Posts, not posters.

:bang:

Actually, I was objecting to his post. Or to be more specific, all the posts combined that fail to condemn or even acknowledge radical Islamofacism, but instead condemn the people who speak out against it.

I forgot to say - good post, Betrade.

Lily - Oki frequently condemns Islamic terrorism. But that's hardly the point. The point is that it is not a good idea (as several posters have pointed out) to talk about a 'peaceful cultural dialogue' with Islam in one breath and,in the next, say that its most holy figure brought 'things only evil and inhuman'.

Mark

So, in an attempt to establish a peaceful dialogue with muslims, Benedict quotes an emperor who said that Muhammed only brought evil and inhuman things to mankind?
I read a newspaper article about this speech earlier the other day and the "larger picture" of the speech was about his belief that God should not be used to justify fanaticism. Hence the quotation of the emperor's statement which reportedly cites Mohammed's endorsement of religious violence and forced conversion. Additionally, the Pope made sure to repeatedly emphasize that he was quoting someone else and that it was a historical example of God being used to justify fanaticism.

I forgot to say - good post, Betrade.

Thanks!

I don't think I have ever seen you, even once, speak out against the radical Islamic Jihadists, the ones who are all about death and destruction, terrorism, etc. (If you have, I haven't seen it) Yet, I constantly see you attacking people who speak out against them.

I know that your beleif is that it isn't "true Islam" (which isn't saying much, since Muslims state that a person has to be fluent in Arabic in order to understand the Koran, and most Muslims don't speak Arabic) but even if that's what you think, I still don't see you ever speaking out against the radical Islamofacists, all I see from you is constant defense.then you dont read properly, lily. but to oblidge you, I hate crazy fanatic extremist 'muslims', their ideas are insane, their goals are criminal,to be short, a bunch of mentally disturbed crazy basterds.,

there. now will you stop trying to make it look like Im one of them, because I come to the defence of normal people who happen to be muslims, because so many people dont know the difference between extremism and beieng religous? its getting old.

btw do I ever see you speak out against all this muslim hate?

Actually, I was objecting to his post. Or to be more specific, all the posts combined that fail to condemn or even acknowledge radical Islamofacism, but instead condemn the people who speak out against it.the pope speaks out agianst mohammed, thereby insulting muslims. its like saying that jews are evil, something the church has done for centuries, and only stopped doing about a decade ago. I have no idea why hed be so stupid, do we need any more misuderstanding between these religons? its in no way less dumb then some imam saying that christians are a bunch of crusaders.

I have a little song going through my head right now after reading that article and some of the posts in this thread.

"The Inquisition! What a show!"

So, in an attempt to establish a peaceful dialogue with muslims, Benedict quotes an emperor who said that Muhammed only brought evil and inhuman things to mankind? Great diplomacy, jackass! Why don't you just call them a bunch of pig-dogs while you're at it? That'll get the peace process started.

BUT IT'S THE TRUTH THOUGH!!!!!!

Before we can make peace with most of them, they need to realize that their religion causes evil, inhuman things and mental problems, as well as that their "prophet" was nothing but a violent pedophile who just happened to be much smarter than the people he was around and was succesful convincing so many idiots that he was talking to God:rolleyes: .

BUT IT'S THE TRUTH THOUGH!!!!!!

Before we can make peace with most of them, they need to realize that their religion causes evil, inhuman things and mental problems, as well as that their "prophet" was nothing but a violent pedophile who just happened to be much smarter than the people he was around and was succesful convincing so many idiots that he was talking to God:rolleyes: .

That's not the point. That's not what peace is about. You're never going to make peace by forcing everyone to admit you're right. That's how you make war. Peace is having respect for someone else as a human being, regardless of how wrong you think their beliefs are.

It doesn't matter if we're right and they're wrong. What matters is that we agree to disagree, and stop killing each other over it!

That's not the point. That's not what peace is about. You're never going to make peace by forcing everyone to admit you're right. That's how you make war. Peace is having respect for someone else as a human being, regardless of how wrong you think their beliefs are.

It doesn't matter if we're right and they're wrong. What matters is that we agree to disagree, and stop killing each other over it!



LOL, try to ask a mad radical to just agree to dissagree ! And hope the blade used to behead you is sharper than the ones they used on other American and world ciizens !

Maybe you need to go to a website and check out the videos of those who ' agreed to dissagree '. Michael Savage has these videos . I have never seen one and never will if I can help it , but some people need to watch them to understand just what the hell we'r dealing with here !!!!!

WHAT IS WRONG WITH NAIVE PEOPLE ! 911 DIDN'T WORK, BOMBINGS ALL OVER THE WORLD DIDN'T WORK .

LOL, try to ask a mad radical to just agree to dissagree ! And hope the blade used to behead you is sharper than the ones they used on other American and world ciizens !

Maybe you need to go to a website and check out the videos of those who ' agreed to dissagree '. Michael Savage has these videos . I have never seen one and never will if I can help it , but some people need to watch them to understand just what the hell we'r dealing with here !!!!!

WHAT IS WRONG WITH NAIVE PEOPLE ! 911 DIDN'T WORK, BOMBINGS ALL OVER THE WORLD DIDN'T WORK .

So the solution is.....

That's not the point. That's not what peace is about. You're never going to make peace by forcing everyone to admit you're right. That's how you make war. Peace is having respect for someone else as a human being, regardless of how wrong you think their beliefs are.

It doesn't matter if we're right and they're wrong. What matters is that we agree to disagree, and stop killing each other over it!

I think part of the problem is that some people think their way is the only way, and that the other side has to compromise themselves 100%.
In truth, compromise has to come from both sides.
You can't attempt to accept people & condemn their religion at the same time, and call it a peaceful gesture. It's merely an eloquent call to war.

So the solution is.....


The solution is for good men not to let bad men take over . But it seems now that only bad men are leading the world, because good men were complacent and didn't pay attention . So we are all in trouble . Mankind has rules to go by, and when these rules are broken or ignored man is in chaos . This is the first time in history where bad rules all mankind ,imo . We will destroy our own selves if a supernatural power doesn't stop us ,imo. This is the ONLY time in history we are able to kill every living thing on earth . This is now not only possible, but likely if devine intervention isn't used soon !

I think part of the problem is that some people think their way is the only way, and that the other side has to compromise themselves 100%.
In truth, compromise has to come from both sides.
You can't attempt to accept people & condemn their religion at the same time, and call it a peaceful gesture. It's merely an eloquent call to war.


you can't compremise without a partner . Otherwise it is submission .

you can't compremise without a partner . Otherwise it is submission .
Exactly my point, thanks, Pappy.

Besides, he sort of neglected that whole "Crusades" business in that statement, didn't he?

Kind of telling when one wants to equate the evils of Christianity and Islam, you have to go back hundreds of years for Christianity's crimes

Kind of telling when one wants to equate the evils of Christianity and Islam, you have to go back hundreds of years for Christianity's crimes
Really? Ever been to Ireland?

it seems that his words were pulled out of context.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5346480.stm

In his speech at Regensburg University, the German-born pontiff explored the historical and philosophical differences between Islam and Christianity and the relationship between violence and faith.

Stressing that they were not his own words, he quoted Emperor Manual II Paleologos of Byzantine, the Orthodox Christian empire which had its capital in what is now the Turkish city of Istanbul.

The emperors words were, he said: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

Benedict said "I quote" twice to stress the words were not his and added that violence was "incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul".

Really? Ever been to Ireland?

:D

:nice:

Mark

Really? Ever been to Ireland?

Are they still converting heathens there?

God bless the pope.

Damn, it's almost as if a Christian leader didn't kill over a hundred thousand people in the Middle East since March 2003, I didn't know that was 700 years ago....:rolleyes:

In CA's World, Christians waving crucifixes around are kidnapping Muslims, torturing them, and converting them after killing everyone else in their family.

Also in CA's World, there's no difference between anything, and everything is bad. I don't know how he musters the courage to leave the house, but I salute his bravery.

In CA's World, Christians waving crucifixes around are kidnapping Muslims, torturing them, and converting them after killing everyone else in their family.

Also in CA's World, there's no difference between anything, and everything is bad. I don't know how he musters the courage to leave the house, but I salute his bravery.

LOL

+5 Funny


As for the insipid whining about the Crusades, I seem to recall something about the invasions of the entire north African coast, Spain, Sicily, attacks on France and Italy that were repulsed, then there is that whole invasion of Greece, the siege of Vienna thing, Bosnia and the Balkans conquests, etc. ... maybe I'm mistaken here ...

you can't compremise without a partner . Otherwise it is submission .

Yes, well, despite all the hubris and anecdotes being spread around like manure, this great wave of supposedly 'moderate, reasonable muslims' has failed to materialize anywhere important, except of course on western TV cameras once in a while, nor have they been very busy at dethroning any of these Mullahs and shieks and asteroid worshipping crackpots. It would seem to be easy enough to accomplish, if all those claims of 'the vast majority of muslims don't support terrorism' aren't just bald faced lies... 'the vast majority' ... that's a lot, isn't it? ...

BUT IT'S THE TRUTH THOUGH!!!!!!

Before we can make peace with most of them, they need to realize that their religion causes evil, inhuman things and mental problems, as well as that their "prophet" was nothing but a violent pedophile who just happened to be much smarter than the people he was around and was succesful convincing so many idiots that he was talking to God:rolleyes: .

You just named why it's so appealing to it's dedicated followers ...

Damn, it's almost as if a Christian leader didn't kill over a hundred thousand people in the Middle East since March 2003, I didn't know that was 700 years ago....:rolleyes:

Don't let your hate for Bush and extremeness lead you to the point of absurdity.

1) Bush's war in Iraq is not about Jesus, so your comparison with Islamic Jihadists who wage war in the name of Islam is ridiculous.
2) Bush didn't murder 100,000 people. Soldiers or even civilians who die in a war is not the same thing as murder. Intentionally targetting innocent civilians is another story, but it is the Islamic terrorists you almost never hear the left speak out against who do that (while the left simultaneously accuses Bush or Israel of it, which shows the hate and insanity, not to mention extreme hypocrisy)
3) Claiming to be a Christian is not the same thing as actually being a Christian.

You just named why it's so appealing to it's dedicated followers ...

Why would anyone in their right mind want to follow a man such as what GF described?

Because it's an Arab cult, developed by and for Arabs. Arabs are just a collection of bandit gangs, and have never been much of anything else. The appeal is in looting and killing your neighbors, a hobby that has wide appeal in 'Islamic' nations; it's better to have slaves than work hard yourself, and better to steal than to farm, in the eyes of most of the ME's 'cultures'. Islam is specifically directed at looting, murder, and enslavement of others. It was invented for just that purpose.

The mystery is why it is so appealing to non-Arab cultures in eastern Asia. I can see why it appeals to the bandit hill and desert tribes of North Africa, Afghanistan and Pakistan; Iran is somewhat of a mystery, as they do have a history of real civilizations, but then it is also the country that has a large population of moderates, and those will eventually prevail. They are the best candidate country for taking the place of the Ottomans and sitting on the Arab bandits and murderers creating chaos these days. That loon and the asteroid worshippers running the country now's days are numbered; it wouldn't take much to topple them and create a civil war there.

In CA's World, Christians waving crucifixes around are kidnapping Muslims, torturing them, and converting them after killing everyone else in their family.

Funny, because Bush has done all that except for trying to convert them, try reading the news for once.

Also in CA's World, there's no difference between anything, and everything is bad. I don't know how he musters the courage to leave the house, but I salute his bravery.


It never fails that you can't post without dodging the subject at hand and getting personal, I guess you can't handle reality, maybe living in Vegas is distorting your perceptions of the world.

Why do far right wingers always act so childish?

Don't let your hate for Bush and extremeness lead you to the point of absurdity.

1) Bush's war in Iraq is not about Jesus, so your comparison with Islamic Jihadists who wage war in the name of Islam is ridiculous.

Uh-oh, not the hate card again. Is it wrong to hate tyrants now???

"The revelation comes after Mr Bush launched an impassioned attack yesterday in Washington on Islamic militants, likening their ideology to that of Communism, and accusing them of seeking to "enslave whole nations" and set up a radical Islamic empire "that spans from Spain to Indonesia". In the programmeElusive Peace: Israel and the Arabs, which starts on Monday, the former Palestinian foreign minister Nabil Shaath says Mr Bush told him and Mahmoud Abbas, former prime minister and now Palestinian President: "I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.' And I did, and then God would tell me, 'George go and end the tyranny in Iraq,' and I did."

And "now again", Mr Bush is quoted as telling the two, "I feel God's words coming to me: 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East.' And by God, I'm gonna do it."

http://www.commondreams.org/cgi-bin/print.cgi?file=/headlines05/1007-03.htm


2) Bush didn't murder 100,000 people. Soldiers or even civilians who die in a war is not the same thing as murder. Intentionally targetting innocent civilians is another story, but it is the Islamic terrorists you almost never hear the left speak out against who do that (while the left simultaneously accuses Bush or Israel of it, which shows the hate and insanity, not to mention extreme hypocrisy)


This has been explained over and over and over again here, we expect barbaric behavior from them, not from us, we expect civility and a higher standard of our supposed enlightened western leaders. That is why it's so disgusting to see our leaders doing what only the barbarians in the ME are supposed to do.

Bush started an illegal war based on fabrications in which tens of thousands have been horribly killed as a direct result, that makes him a murderer. I don't live in the world of newsspeak along with the far right (neo-cons) who believe murder can only be committed by terrorists, or Muslims, or gangbangers, or leaders of foreign nations.

The Jihadists don't think killing civilians in their war is murder either, as far as I'm concerned I wish all the warmongers over here would get their asses over to the ME and put their money where their mouths are and leave the rest of us sane people out of their childish fairy tale squabbles.



3) Claiming to be a Christian is not the same thing as actually being a Christian.


I agree, I don't think Bush is a "real" christian either, but then that's the same excuse the evil muslims use, "they aren't "real" Muslims.

How about we just call them all stupid evil people who like to kill others and make excuses for it?

Damn, it's almost as if a Christian leader didn't kill over a hundred thousand people in the Middle East since March 2003, I didn't know that was 700 years ago....:rolleyes:Bush is not a Christian leader....not that that would alter your view against Bush or Christianity

Really? Ever been to Ireland?Were the Troubles in Ireland really over religion?

Were the Troubles in Ireland really over religion?

The troubles in Ireland were much the same as nominally religious troubles anywhere else in the world. They are invariably about tribalism and/or territory. Religion just gets dragged into it somewhere along the way as a good reason for killing people.

Mark

So basically, you're all arguing: which is worse? Islam or Christianity?

Can't we have a third option? Like individuality??? :scratch:

If Muslims kill, destroy, and kidnap over the Pope's remarks, then you might have to consider the Pope as....get this....correct.

It never fails that you can't post without dodging the subject at hand and getting personal, I guess you can't handle reality, maybe living in Vegas is distorting your perceptions of the world.

Why do far right wingers always act so childish?

I don't mean this as a personal attack at all, but I've never known you to distinguish anything, nor have any sort of perspective. I've also never known you to like or approve of anything. It's from THIS, that, if you'll excuse me, why I find it easy to pick on you.

Now if you allow me to resume teasing you, you're exactly the sort of person that would bring up Japanese-American internment camps if anyone ever brought up the Holocaust. And the thing is, I'm pretty sure that's not hyperbole.

The serial killer and the fellow who accidentally jumped the curb and killed a pedestrian are both killers, right?

I'm just glad the pope spoke up .

Well, why stop there...
Lets quote on some more great leaders of christianity:

Pope Urban II - "On this account I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ's heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends. I say this to those who are present, it meant also for those who are absent. Moreover, Christ commands it.

"All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested. O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion! Let those who have been accustomed unjustly to wage private warfare against the faithful now go against the infidels and end with victory this war which should have been begun long ago. Let those who for a long time, have been robbers, now become knights. Let those who have been fighting against their brothers and relatives now fight in a proper way against the barbarians. Let those who have been serving as mercenaries for small pay now obtain the eternal reward. Let those who have been wearing themselves out in both body and soul now work for a double honor."


Peter the Hermit - "Lets kich them muzlim butts!"


Albert of Aix - "In every admonition and sermon, with all the persuasion of which he was capable, he urged setting out on the journey as soon as possible. In response to his constant admonition and call, bishops, abbots, clerics, and monks set out; next, most noble laymen, and princes of the different kingdoms; then, all the common people, the chaste as well as the sinful, adulterers, homicides, thieves, perjurers, and robbers; indeed, every class of the Christian profession, nay, also, women and those influenced by the spirit of penance -- all joyfully entered upon this expedition. (...)
"Godfrey, surnamed Burela native of the city Etampes, master and standard-bearer of two hundred foot soldiers, himself a foot soldier, and a man of great strength - seeing the flight of the Hungarians away from the walls, then quickly crossed over the walls by means of a ladder he chanced to find there. Reinald of Broyes, a distinguished knight, clad in helmet and coat of mail, ascended just after Godfrey; soon all the knights, as well as the footsoldiers, hastened to enter the city. The Hungarians, seeing their own imminent peril, gathered seven thousand strong for defense; and, having passed out through another gate which looked toward the east, they stationed themselves on the summit of a lofty crag, beyond which flowed the Danube, where they were invincibly fortified. A very large part of these were unable to escape quickly through the narrow passage, and they fell before the gate. Some who hoped to find refuge on the top of the mountain were cut down by the pursuing pilgrims; still others, thrown headlong from the summit of the mountain, were buried in the waves of the Danube, but many escaped by boat. About four thousand Hungarians fell there, but only a hundred pilgrims, not counting the wounded, were killed at that same place."


Emperor Alexius - "Bloody Hell! You killed more Christians than infidels..."


Gesta - "(...)the Turks, hearing that Peter the Hermit and Walter the Penniless were in Civitote, which is located above the city of Nicaea, went there with great joy to kill them and those who were with them. And when they had come, they encountered Walter with his men (all of) whom the Turks soon killed. But Peter the Hermit had gone to Constantinople a short while before because he was unable to restrain that varied host, which was not willing to listen either to him or to his words. The Turks, indeed, rushed upon these people and killed many of them. Some they found sleeping, some lying down, others naked - all of whom they killed. With these people they found a certain priest celebrating mass, whom they straightway martyred upon the altar. Those who could escape fled to Civitote; others hurled themselves headlong into the sea, while some hid in the forests and mountains. But the Turks, pursuing them to the fortress, collected wood to bum them with the fort. The Christians who were in the fort, therefore, set fire to the wood that had been collected, and the fire, turning in the direction of the Turks, cremated some of them; but from the fire the Lord delivered our people at that time. Nevertheless, the Turks took them alive and divided them, just as they had done the others, and scattered them through all these regions, some to Chorosan, and others to Persia. This all happened in the month of October. The Emperor, upon hearing that the Turks had so scattered our people, was exceedingly glad and sent for them (the Turks) had them cross the Strait.. After they were across, he purchased all their arms"

I'm also inclined to believe this is an example of taking a quote out of context and being rather selective with the Pope's words. After all, this is the man who said "It is true that the Muslim world is not totally mistaken when it reproaches the West of Christian tradition of moral decadence and the manipulation of human life...This imposes on us a serious examination of conscience."

Islam is flawed in that there is no central or final authority, as well as numerous "denominations" warring with one another. There will never be a broad concensus within Islam, because it's a fractured belief system, with followers following a variety of leaders both dead and alive.

The Catholic Church, for example, can call together the Bishops from every diocese on the planet with a day or two if need be. Nationality is irrelevant in that particular faith. The Pope issues a decree, writes his encyclicals that interpert and clarify the faith, and adds what he sees fit to the Catechism when necessary, and it becomes doctrine or dogma.

That's why the entire Church submits to the Bishop of Rome. It learned early on that there has to be a final authority. That ability doesn't exist in Isalm, or in any other religion for that matter. Every other religion is denominational, regional, or even state based.

Islam has divided itself for centuries now, and there will NEVER be one interpertation of that faith. The divisions are now huge. They're killing each other all over the world, because they can't agree on what the Koran even means or says, or how it's to be interperted. I don't know what part tradition plays, but it obviously has serious impact on who believes what, depending upon what they were taught, and by whom they were taught it.

I've heard for many years what a "peaceful" belief system Islam is, but my eyes tell me otherwise. It's anything but peaceful, in spite of the Muslims who are peaceful. There are violent factions within the faith, and they're growing daily to the point where they have become major movements at every level.

That's obvious, and the worst thing we can do is to ignore whats staring us in the face almost daily, and go on pretending we're dealing with peaceful folks. We're not, and the peaceful Muslims are doing very little to rid themselves of the violence within the faith. I don't even believe they have the ability to do much about it. It's gotten too far out of control.

Funny, because Bush has done all that except for trying to convert them, try reading the news for once.



Really? Where are the mass graves of Muslims that Bush executed? Where are the video tapes of Bush threatening to behead kidnapped Muslim civilians?

Your moral relativism is beyond repulsive.

If the Catholic Church should still be blamed for the Crusades and the Inquisition, which happened centuries ago, then I think it's only right the Republican Party continue to take credit for ending slavery, seeing how that was only 140 years ago. Is this a deal?

Does anyone knows what the Pop really said, before jumping to conclusions?
His very speach - I mean.

But it's funny how if somebody make a connection between Islam and violence - the very moment muslims prove he is right.

Here is the relevant section: (from an article in the WSJ - subscription account required).

Recently … I read the edition by Professor Theodore Khoury (M
Junster) of part of the dialogue carried on -- perhaps in 1391 in the winter barracks near Ankara -- by the erudite Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus and an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam, and the truth of both. It was presumably the emperor himself who set down this dialogue, during the siege of Constantinople between 1394 and 1402; and this would explain why his arguments are given in greater detail than those of his Persian interlocutor. The dialogue ranges widely over the structures of faith contained in the Bible and in the Qur'an, and deals especially with the image of God and of man, while necessarily returning repeatedly to the relationship between -- as they were called -- three "Laws" or "rules of life": the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Qur'an. It is not my intention to discuss this question in the present lecture; here I would like to discuss only one point -- itself rather marginal to the dialogue as a whole -- which, in the context of the issue of "faith and reason", I found interesting and which can serve as the starting-point for my reflections on this issue. In the seventh conversation .. edited by Professor Khoury, the emperor touches on the theme of the holy war. The emperor must have known that surah 2, 256 reads: "There is no compulsion in religion". According to the experts, this is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat. But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Qur'an, concerning holy war. Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels", he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached". The emperor, after having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God", he says, "is not pleased by blood -- and not acting reasonably .. is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats.. To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death...".

The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature. The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality. Here Khoury quotes a work of the noted French Islamist R. Arnaldez, who points out that Ibn Hazn went so far as to state that God is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us. Were it God's will, we would even have to practice idolatry.

(...)

"Not to act reasonably, not to act with "logos (reason)", is contrary to the nature of God", said Manuel II, according to his Christian understanding of God, in response to his Persian interlocutor. It is to this great "logos", to this breadth of reason, that we invite our partners in the dialogue of cultures. To rediscover it constantly is the great task of the university.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB115849635710865620.html?mod=googlenews_wsj


From the above, it is pretty clear that The Pope was delving into the balance of Faith and Reason, and showing that promoting Holy War was contrary to the latter and God's Law.

The Muslims who are reacting violently to his statement are just proving his point.

What worries me is that it appears we have the Catholic version of GWB in charge of the Catholic Church. The man must be a stone idiot not to have understood the results of his comments. GWB and now the Pope continue to give the fanatics on either side fodder to inflame them.

Stupid comments just plain stupid!!!

and now he's apologized. :nonono: how much can you respect a religous leader with that kind of conviction?

jwreck, he didn't apologize for what he said, only that it created unhappiness in the Muslim community.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060917/ap_on_re_eu/pope_muslims

...the former deputy of Cairo's Al-Azhar Mosque, the Sunni Arab world's most powerful institution, told Al-Arabiya TV the explanation was "not enough."

"He should apologize because he insulted the beliefs of Islam. He must apologize in a frank way and say he made a mistake," Mahmoud Ashour said.

Mohammed al-Nujeimi, a professor at the Institute of Judicial and Islamic Studies in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, also criticized the pope's statement.

"The pope does not want to apologize. He is evading apology and what he said today is a repetition of his previous statement," he told Al-Arabiya TV.

The Vatican had released a statement Saturday saying the pope "sincerely regrets" that Muslims were offended, but stopped short of apologizing....

huh, just goes to show you can't believe everything you read. thanks for the clarification.

btw, wtf is up spabby! long time no see.

real life boring ass stuff, you know how it is. good to see you too :)

you just knew I was reading the reactions to this mess though. muslims shot a nun 4 times in the back in somalia today to express their "outrage" at being indirectly referred to as violent by the Pope. that will clarify how non-violent they are, you think?

If the Catholic Church should still be blamed for the Crusades and the Inquisition, which happened centuries ago, then I think it's only right the Republican Party continue to take credit for ending slavery, seeing how that was only 140 years ago. Is this a deal?
Slavery is still a fact and you benefit from it, consuming its fruits. THe answer is NO.

The Muslims who are reacting violently to his statement are just proving his point.
Splendid. Now, how about even more violent so-called christians, burning their opponents with phosphor grenades? What lesson are there for them from our good Pope, bless him...

What worries me is that it appears we have the Catholic version of GWB in charge of the Catholic Church. The man must be a stone idiot not to have understood the results of his comments. GWB and now the Pope continue to give the fanatics on either side fodder to inflame them.

Stupid comments just plain stupid!!!
Thank you! :D The extremists of the world are just the same, no matter what denomination.

Splendid. Now, how about even more violent so-called christians, burning their opponents with phosphor grenades? What lesson are there for them from our good Pope, bless him...

Do you consider soldiers extremists?

Do you consider soldiers extremists?
Not the one I know personally :D no, seriously Dude... The ones who carry out hatred are not the one to blame. Extremists are political charlatans who polarize the polemic to gain power over people. They use fear to attract more voters than they usually do... sounds familiar?

They use fear to attract more voters than they usually do... sounds familiar?

Yeah, it sounds like a faux democracy.

Splendid. Now, how about even more violent so-called christians, burning their opponents with phosphor grenades? What lesson are there for them from our good Pope, bless him...


Really? Where did the Catholic Church initiate a religious war in which non-Christians are being burned with phosphor grenades? Where are the mass protests of Christians demanding that Muslims being wiped off of the face of the Earth?

Really? Where did the Catholic Church initiate a religious war in which non-Christians are being burned with phosphor grenades? Where are the mass protests of Christians demanding that Muslims being wiped off of the face of the Earth?
Where you ask? Right here on DA *sardonic laughter*

I don't mean this as a personal attack at all, but I've never known you to distinguish anything, nor have any sort of perspective. I've also never known you to like or approve of anything. It's from THIS, that, if you'll excuse me, why I find it easy to pick on you.

Now if you allow me to resume teasing you, you're exactly the sort of person that would bring up Japanese-American internment camps if anyone ever brought up the Holocaust. And the thing is, I'm pretty sure that's not hyperbole.

The serial killer and the fellow who accidentally jumped the curb and killed a pedestrian are both killers, right?


Brilliant post. :nice:

I wish Fabio would answer your question.

Slavery is still a fact and you benefit from it, consuming its fruits. THe answer is NO.

American slavery is no more, and hasn't been for a long time.

American slavery is no more, and hasn't been for a long time.
Oh, but you are so modest... rise your gaze... behold the whole, new world of IMFs creation (http://www.imf.org/external/np/exr/ccrit/eng/cri.htm)... behold the cashflow created by the so called free market... do I need to tease you more, or did you got it, Hadit?

real life boring ass stuff, you know how it is. good to see you too :)

you just knew I was reading the reactions to this mess though. muslims shot a nun 4 times in the back in somalia today to express their "outrage" at being indirectly referred to as violent by the Pope. that will clarify how non-violent they are, you think?


Spab! :) Great to see you!

And I was thinking the same thing about the Muslim reaction. "How dare someone read a quote about Muslims being violent. We're not violent!!!!" *shoots an elderly nun 4 times, screams in rage in the street and burns the pope in effigy*


Apparently, the nun, as she lay dying :( said, "I forgive" about her killers.



Similar to how Jesus said, "Forgive them father, for they know not what they do." about those who crucified him, as he was on the cross.

I hope Muslims will think about that.

I guess now they will put out a jihad hit on him .

I don't agree with catholism, but at least he has the guts to speak out against these 'radical'killers .

Isn't it all in the same boat. christins and catholic?

Or as George Carlin said "Chrsitians worship the dead guy on a stick and catholics worship the stick the dead guy was on"

Oh, but you are so modest... rise your gaze... behold the whole, new world of IMFs creation (http://www.imf.org/external/np/exr/ccrit/eng/cri.htm)... behold the cashflow created by the so called free market... do I need to tease you more, or did you got it, Hadit?

Name some American slaves. I'm sure you can.

What worries me is that it appears we have the Catholic version of GWB in charge of the Catholic Church. The man must be a stone idiot not to have understood the results of his comments. GWB and now the Pope continue to give the fanatics on either side fodder to inflame them.

Stupid comments just plain stupid!!!

It isn't his fault that people use his words to justify their own evil deeds. He can say whatever he wants.

Muslim clerics say inflammatory things every day all over the world, yet no one goes on murderous ramapages because of it.

I'm getting really tired of the double standards, and the messengers being blamed for the actions of others, who freely choose to do what they do.

Name some American slaves. I'm sure you can.
You are really doing your best to seem not quite as bright as you are. Thats not very becoming. One could easily be deceived by such pretendent pose :D

It isn't his fault that people use his words to justify their own evil deeds. He can say whatever he wants.

Muslim clerics say inflammatory things every day all over the world, yet no one goes on murderous ramapages because of it.

I'm getting really tired of the double standards, and the messengers being blamed for the actions of others, who freely choose to do what they do.
So, you actually acquit even the most fanatical leader from his responsibility as leader of his people? Do you find no corelation whatsoever with decades of indoctrination and pogromes, hatred and war crimes?

I get tired of double standards as well, it doesnt matter what pretext, the sins should be judged equaly no matter WHO commited them.

It isn't his fault that people use his words to justify their own evil deeds. He can say whatever he wants.

Muslim clerics say inflammatory things every day all over the world, yet no one goes on murderous ramapages because of it.

I'm getting really tired of the double standards, and the messengers being blamed for the actions of others, who freely choose to do what they do.


Using such people's logic, a man would be justified in raping a woman if she turned him down for a date.

It isn't his fault that people use his words to justify their own evil deeds. He can say whatever he wants.

Muslim clerics say inflammatory things every day all over the world, yet no one goes on murderous ramapages because of it.

I'm getting really tired of the double standards, and the messengers being blamed for the actions of others, who freely choose to do what they do.


Its not about double standards stupid is stupid no matter who the individual is, however, if that individual is Pope or President stupid is simply alot more costly in terms of outcome than with some back alley Mullah with a grade 3 education. In neither case can the stupidity be excused but in the case of the uneducated it alot more understandable.