Makes sense. It's not possible to completely remove ourselves from our frame of mind, and we only do that which we feel the rewards will outweigh the cost. I remember in high school Key Club tried to paint themselves as selfless volunteers, until the school paper ran an article on the fact that all those hours were to look good on college apps and because the more time they put in the more parties they got to go to. After that the show was over and they were open about all the fun-stuff they did without much attention to volunteering. Pretty sad.

Laters,
Nomi
>^..^<

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Of course Cats are smarter than Dogs. You'd never see eight cats pulling a sled through snow, would you?

Originally posted by DaOgre:
We are all selfish... anything we do, we do for personal satisfaction on some level. If I give a bum a quarter, its because that'll make me feel better about myself. If I go to church its because I feel like Im a better person if I do. Working out means I think it will give me some personal benefit...Whatcha all think?

I think there is a differance between societal driven selfishness and the basic need for survival.

Personally, I don't care why people do the things you listed above. It's their business and they can rationalize it any way they like.

However, our biology is selfish. Procreation is a natural but deliberate self-serving act to keep your genetic code present in the next generation, right? Our basic drives are inherently selfish either to stay alive or to continue our species' existance.

[This message has been edited by eanax (edited 06-08-2001).]

I agree... but look at how biology works... orgasm... feels good... eating a good meal...feels good... getting a breath of air when youve been underwater... feels good... Nature lets us know that doing things we need for our selves makes us feel good...I dont know what bearing this has... but yeah... boom shaka laka

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"Who wants some? Huh? Who wants a little?"
-TOAO Ash

Yea i do think everything is self motivated on some level. Not that that invalidates or detracts from acts of charity, but i think its a legitimate foil to people who claim to be selfless and denounce other people for looking out for their own good. As far as procreation being the ultimate motivator, that maybe true for animals, but when it comes to humans it all depends on who you are...

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"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." -Nietzsche

I was talking with Cody about this a while ago and wonder what you all think about this.

We are all selfish... anything we do, we do for personal satisfaction on some level. If I give a bum a quarter, its because that'll make me feel better about myself. If I go to church its because I feel like Im a better person if I do. Working out means I think it will give me some personal benefit...

Whatcha all think?

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"Who wants some? Huh? Who wants a little?"
-TOAO Ash

Of course selfishness is a ness survival trate hard coded into us all. I do think that my gen is the true ME gen however. Look at my "new conservitives" thread or "american car" thread. Young people dont care about the FDR ideals of helping others in need, they care about tax cuts. Young people dont care about slave labor, environmental degradation, or saving American jobs, they care about getting a cheap product about ALL else. If you have known know different than it all seems fine. But if you are old enough to remember when this wasnt the case, it seems the conservitive greed is taking over our youth

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Winner of the "peoples Choice award" for supreme advocate for the people!

I'm not "always right", it just seems that way

Spelling is for kids! I think you got the point!

Originally posted by Fordman50:
Young people dont care about the FDR ideals of helping others in need, they care about tax cuts. Young people dont care about slave labor, environmental degradation, or saving American jobs, they care about getting a cheap product about ALL else. If you have known know different than it all seems fine. But if you are old enough to remember when this wasnt the case, it seems the conservitive greed is taking over our youth



Whoa whoa, I fail to see how you can say young people today care less about the environment and slave labor than in the past. The American jobs thing i dunno, but id point to the anti-globalization movement as evidence of many young people who do care about American jobs. Regardless, environmental regulations are tighter today than ever before, as are labor laws. I bet they buried and dumped a hell of a lot more toxic waste back in the 60's than they do today. Also I hear they weren't reall swell to those immigrant grape pickers back in the day either. And when Ralph Nader gets over a million votes I dont think thats a real indication the kids are swinging to the right.

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"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." -Nietzsche

[This message has been edited by CodyChaos (edited 06-09-2001).]

I beleive that humans as a whole are selfish creatures. It is how I make sense out of the world. I know that everyone does everything for a reason. Deep down inside humans get some sort of satisfaction for the actions they want to perform. I know that humans are selfish. It makes it easier to figure out what people will do and why people do them.

If nowadays the youth is less inclined to care about the environment, slavery, or helping others (which I doubt is true), it is because the satisfaction for not caring about those things...ie remaining oblivious, out weighs the satisfaction they would get if they did care.

The human body is designed to be selfish physically and mentally. As is all organisms. A cheetah mother feeds and cares for its young to have it survive. Because of her primal urges to fulfill her desire to pass on her genes and continue the species. Instinctively, humans are no different. A baby is born with one driving thought on his/her mind, to fufill his/her own needs. Selfishness is the way of survival and survival is the driving force of life. Humans have tried to distance themselves from the trials of survival. But deep down inside it is still there and dictates actions. This want to fulfill needs is also a mental one. All wanted actions are to elicit satisfaction and satiation of desires, whatever they may be. A human is a selfish creature, no matter how hard it is denied.

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-Will

Originally posted by CodyChaos:
Whoa whoa, I fail to see how you can say young people today care less about the environment and slave labor than in the past. The American jobs thing i dunno, but id point to the anti-globalization movement as evidence of many young people who do care about American jobs. Regardless, environmental regulations are tighter today than ever before, as are labor laws. I bet they buried and dumped a hell of a lot more toxic waste back in the 60's than they do today. Also I hear they weren't reall swell to those immigrant grape pickers back in the day either. And when Ralph Nader gets over a million votes I dont think thats a real indication the kids are swinging to the right.



A handful of protestors does nt a movement make. The REAL way people make REAL differences in the world is by voting with their wallets. If products are boycotted that are made with exploitative labor than things will change. If Americans only by products/cars from factories that have the strict environmetal laws and controls than things will change. Its MONEY that makes the difference.

Its good that protesters can make people aware of the issues, but its up to you to take that in and act upon it with your money. When all the choices are laid out, clearly American products are about the only ones that meet ALL of the rigid standards that we shold all instist upon. The bonus of this idea is that our economy will boom like never before if we all did this.

However, the selfishness is all of us would rather save a couple of pennies than help saveUS jobs while protecting the environment.

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Winner of the "peoples Choice award" for supreme advocate for the people!

I'm not "always right", it just seems that way

Spelling is for kids! I think you got the point!

Originally posted by Fordman50:
A handful of protestors does nt a movement make. The REAL way people make REAL differences in the world is by voting with their wallets. If products are boycotted that are made with exploitative labor than things will change. If Americans only by products/cars from factories that have the strict environmetal laws and controls than things will change. Its MONEY that makes the difference.

Its good that protesters can make people aware of the issues, but its up to you to take that in and act upon it with your money. When all the choices are laid out, clearly American products are about the only ones that meet ALL of the rigid standards that we shold all instist upon. The bonus of this idea is that our economy will boom like never before if we all did this.

However, the selfishness is all of us would rather save a couple of pennies than help saveUS jobs while protecting the environment.



Youve completley lost sight of the point of the thread in the first place. You obviously get more of a kick and emotional high from saving the environment or whatever than the rest of us do. You also get off more on hoarding your political ideologies over others... just like I get a kick from looking at arguments like this and laughing. No one NEEDS to save the rainforests... sure the Earth may day... but big deal... I get more satisfaction being able to wipe my *** with paper rather than my hand than save a few trees...its a fact... and your not a selfless person... NO ONE is selfless... its a matter of what makes you feel good... and for you its buying american and voting your beliefs.. for me its eating steak and being liberal... to each their own

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"Who wants some? Huh? Who wants a little?"
-TOAO Ash

[This message has been edited by DaOgre (edited 06-11-2001).]

its a dog eat dog world.im selfish when it comes down to it.if im starving and there is only one piece of pizza left im gonna eat it.

Well i mean the point about voting with your consumer choices is a good one. The buy American thing makes more sense when you reason it like that. The problem is alot of your everday mundane junk people use is designed, marketed, and bought from US companies but the actual labor is done in other countries. Thats not main focus of the WTO protests though, they are protesting the secretive nature of the talks and the deals being made. I mean i buy cosmetic/toiletry products that arent tested on animals but its a bit tough to avoid everything made in Taiwan, Korea, China, Mexico, and Malaysia.

Besides, the USA had pretty atrocious labor conditions not too long ago too. It was the US laborers who changed that by unionizing and standing up to the government agents and pinkerton thugs that tried to wreck their movements. Alot of laborers paid in blood for the protections we all enjoy today. Obviously advances in technology and overall living standards helped too but its largely just a sad side effect of the process of industrialization that nations go through.

Originally posted by Fordman50:
A handful of protestors does nt a movement make. The REAL way people make REAL differences in the world is by voting with their wallets. If products are boycotted that are made with exploitative labor than things will change. If Americans only by products/cars from factories that have the strict environmetal laws and controls than things will change. Its MONEY that makes the difference.

Its good that protesters can make people aware of the issues, but its up to you to take that in and act upon it with your money. When all the choices are laid out, clearly American products are about the only ones that meet ALL of the rigid standards that we shold all instist upon. The bonus of this idea is that our economy will boom like never before if we all did this.

However, the selfishness is all of us would rather save a couple of pennies than help saveUS jobs while protecting the environment.





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"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." -Nietzsche

Yea and then I'll eat you! heh heh heh

Originally posted by Calypso:
its a dog eat dog world.im selfish when it comes down to it.if im starving and there is only one piece of pizza left im gonna eat it.



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"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." -Nietzsche

Ok, I got my last essay to write for English, so I'll make this quick. Heh, I remember having this discussion with Cody and Nathan at Libertatia last year (gonna miss you this time around, Ogre)and disagreeing with them. In my opinion, our decisions are based on values, not self-gratification. I can attribute more value to helping someone else out than helping myself in some way. This doesn't necessarily mean that I get a better feeling from doing the selfless act, it just means that for some reason I place more value in the altruistic path. All in all, however, I believe that for most people (perhaps all) the majority of their actions are motivated by selfishness. There are a few shining cases, however, when an individual acts out of instinct, sense of duty or responsibility, compassion, etc. Sorry I don't have time to elaborate, but basically I just don't believe that you can blanket all human actions under the umbrella of self-gratification.

-Patrick

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"The difference between an individual terrorist and a government in some cases may be simply that the former has a bomb but doesn't have an air force."
-William Blum

Patrick, here is how I see what you are saying. Given that there is some overall good that dictates virtues and morality, you choose to follow those edicts because it makes you feel better in some way. You choose to value a sense of duty, instinct is ingrained into a living creature to look out for its own survival, etc.

With that set down as my view, I now take your side Patrick. I think that every choice is determined by self-interest, but thinking about things in this manner is too simplisitic (or maybe too complicated) to really be helpful at all. If you think about it, claiming that someone is a virtuous person is a much better description than rating how that person values each and every action and determining which ones they believe are more beneficial. Talking about virtues and other reasons to act, whereas I am sure they are rooted in self-interest at their base, is a higher, more abstract concept of actions. I believe it is fine in any situation to talk about someone being motivated by morals rather than self-interest, though there still is self-interest involved.

Nate

Good point Nate, but two things. First, I don't necessarily do things because it makes me feel better, that would be conceding that I do all things out of a selfish desire (also, I didn't mean it to sound like *I'm* a virtuous person, not floating my own boat or anything like that...). Second, I concede that self-interest is always involved (I never meant to infer otherwise), but it is not necessarily the deciding factor. Like most everything else, self-interest is given a value rating. Whether a person decides to value self-interest over responsibility, etc. is entirely up to the individual.

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"The difference between an individual terrorist and a government in some cases may be simply that the former has a bomb but doesn't have an air force."
-William Blum

LOL @ DaOgre. You keep wiping your *** with paper. I think we will all support you on that issue http://discussanything.com/Ubb/wink.gif

Pat, Let he who is without "virtue", cast the fist stone. See where Im going?


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Winner of the "peoples Choice award" for supreme advocate for the people!

I'm not "always right", it just seems that way

Spelling is for kids! I think you got the point!

Lets break it down to a specific example... namely the one that Cody, Pat, and I were discussing over... Some guy floated up to our piraty embankment and asked if we would help him get his boat into the water (I think) we all helped him, but he got a buncha water in the boat in the process...so we all sat down and watched as he began bailing out water. Cody and I sat there and begun discussing self-intrest... wanting to prove us wrong... Pat got up and helped the guy bail out the water...

We decided that to Pat, he obviously got more out of bailing out the water than sitting in the shade... saying things have a value is fine... but its the same as self intrest... your missing a key point.

Your intrest is to act in your values... and your values told you to help him bail out the boat, so you did... and this fufilled your values, and likewise gave you a sense of fufilment... otherwise you wouldnt have done it?

Its still values, or self intrest or whatever...just putting a different spin on the wording.

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"Who wants some? Huh? Who wants a little?"
-TOAO Ash

What is the point of living without pleasure, any type (not just sexual). Dont we all live for pleasure. We works hard to buy nice cars, go on vacation, to have things, all for what ??? PERSONAL PLEASURE! Even people who have given their lives to God such as priests do it for pleasure, pleasure of knowing they will be accepted into God's kingdom. I think it's impossible to not live for some kind of pleasure. It's a pleasure for me to just breath and live everyday......so its impossible to not live in or for pleasure!

Sorry, been gone for a while. First off, you got it backwards Nathan, you and Cody helped the guy because I couldn't; I had a shattered femur and was unable to stand up without the aid of two crutches, and therefore couldn't help the guy out. Anyways, I used to agree with Cody's and your's viewpoint long before you even voiced it, but then I realized that my acceptance of aforementioned code to be based on ignorance. To claim that ALL human actions are based on selfishness is to deny the wide range of human emotions that exist. Your fallacy is that you believe that everyone else thinks the way you do, and this just isn't so. I am not denying the fact that many actions are based on self-gratification, however, as illustrated by the amount of video games I play http://discussanything.com/Ubb/smile.gif .

-Big Daddy P

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"The difference between an individual terrorist and a government in some cases may be simply that the former has a bomb but doesn't have an air force."
-William Blum

Originally posted by PatTheAnarChrist:
Sorry, been gone for a while. First off, you got it backwards Nathan, you and Cody helped the guy because I couldn't; I had a shattered femur and was unable to stand up without the aid of two crutches, and therefore couldn't help the guy out. Anyways, I used to agree with Cody's and your's viewpoint long before you even voiced it, but then I realized that my acceptance of aforementioned code to be based on ignorance. To claim that ALL human actions are based on selfishness is to deny the wide range of human emotions that exist. Your fallacy is that you believe that everyone else thinks the way you do, and this just isn't so. I am not denying the fact that many actions are based on self-gratification, however, as illustrated by the amount of video games I play http://discussanything.com/Ubb/smile.gif .

-Big Daddy P



Well I dont think Im being ignorant... you've seen everyone on this website say they have "selfish" motivations... Ive yet to see someone, or see an example of someone who doesnt...

If Im being so ignorant please englighten me



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Well, if crime fighters fight crime and fire fighters fight fire, what do freedom fighters fight? They never mention that part to us, do they?
George Carlin

Originally posted by PatTheAnarChrist:
Sorry, been gone for a while. First off, you got it backwards Nathan, you and Cody helped the guy because I couldn't; I had a shattered femur and was unable to stand up without the aid of two crutches, and therefore couldn't help the guy out. Anyways, I used to agree with Cody's and your's viewpoint long before you even voiced it, but then I realized that my acceptance of aforementioned code to be based on ignorance. To claim that ALL human actions are based on selfishness is to deny the wide range of human emotions that exist. Your fallacy is that you believe that everyone else thinks the way you do, and this just isn't so. I am not denying the fact that many actions are based on self-gratification, however, as illustrated by the amount of video games I play http://discussanything.com/Ubb/smile.gif .

-Big Daddy P



No dude you do it for emotional fufillment, emotions are the product of your desires. Fufilling them is selfish to even if you dont recognize that it is.



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"He could not plead want of employment, nor incapacity of getting his bread in an honest way, but frankly own'd it was to get rid of the disagreeable superiority of some masters he was acquainted with and the love of novelty and change."

William Defoe on Bartholomew Roberts career of piracy

Originally posted by CodyChaos:
No dude you do it for emotional fufillment, emotions are the product of your desires. Fufilling them is selfish to even if you dont recognize that it is.



Well, or maybe there are different ways of thinking that your view on this subject doesn't recognize. This is more than a philosophical argument, it's a psychological argument, and so I don't think that with all of our limited knowledges in the study of psychology, we're gonna be able to reach a definitive conclusion on this subject.

-Patrick

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aka, Grand Master Wheat Thin
"The difference between an individual terrorist and a government in some cases may be simply that the former has a bomb but doesn't have an air force."
-William Blum

Originally posted by PatTheAnarChrist:
Well, or maybe there are different ways of thinking that your view on this subject doesn't recognize. This is more than a philosophical argument, it's a psychological argument, and so I don't think that with all of our limited knowledges in the study of psychology, we're gonna be able to reach a definitive conclusion on this subject.

-Patrick



Im calling you out Pat... tell me some of these "Other ways of thinking" because I dont see them... and I dont believe they exsist... if theres a form of thinking that no one knows about and no one does...whats the point in acknoledging it?

none...

So show us why we "cant" argue this



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Well, if crime fighters fight crime and fire fighters fight fire, what do freedom fighters fight? They never mention that part to us, do they?
George Carlin

I already told you one form of thinking. What I was TRYING to say in the above quote is that none of us has the knowledge necessary to say that my form of living life is the ONLY way it's done. When Cody or you tell me I do something because, I tend to think that's not a valid argument, because you two don't observe me enough, or have the god-like ability to read my mind that isnecessary if you want to know how I think. Now, if you wanna say MOST people live their lives according to selfish desires ALMOST ALL of the time, that's different. In fact, I would agree with that. You do know have enough proof to say that this is a universal way of thinking. That's what I was saying.

Personally, I don't see how this is "calling me out", either, cause I've already clearly stated my views. Now, if you said it just to sound cool, like we're in a western or something, that's another story...

Draw Pardner!!!
-Patrick

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aka, Grand Master Wheat Thin
"The difference between an individual terrorist and a government in some cases may be simply that the former has a bomb but doesn't have an air force."
-William Blum

Originally posted by PatTheAnarChrist:
I already told you one form of thinking. What I was TRYING to say in the above quote is that none of us has the knowledge necessary to say that my form of living life is the ONLY way it's done. When Cody or you tell me I do something because, I tend to think that's not a valid argument, because you two don't observe me enough, or have the god-like ability to read my mind that isnecessary if you want to know how I think. Now, if you wanna say MOST people live their lives according to selfish desires ALMOST ALL of the time, that's different. In fact, I would agree with that. You do know have enough proof to say that this is a universal way of thinking. That's what I was saying.

Personally, I don't see how this is "calling me out", either, cause I've already clearly stated my views. Now, if you said it just to sound cool, like we're in a western or something, that's another story...

Draw Pardner!!!
-Patrick




First off... yeah it was just to sound cool...

secondly...

I think I do know enough about the human psyche to make that assumtion...and I did... and Ive yet to see how anyone isn't getting satisfaction for what they do

No matter how selfless an act you do... it still gives you some sense of satisfaction... or you wouldnt do it... I dont see your argument...


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Well, if crime fighters fight crime and fire fighters fight fire, what do freedom fighters fight? They never mention that part to us, do they?
George Carlin

Originally posted by DaOgre:

First off... yeah it was just to sound cool...

secondly...

I think I do know enough about the human psyche to make that assumtion...and I did... and Ive yet to see how anyone isn't getting satisfaction for what they do

No matter how selfless an act you do... it still gives you some sense of satisfaction... or you wouldnt do it... I dont see your argument...




Why did you post this in the debate forum when you refuse to concede that there are other valid points of view? That being said, this is going to be my last post on this subject...

Anyways, read back to my early posts, what I said is that selfish desires are not always the PRIMARY motivation, but they can still be present. I really feel like I've made my point clear on this before, and I don't see why we have to argue the same thing back and forth time and time again, with you saying that I'm wrong, and me saying that you don't know what I'm thinking, and nobody else really contributing to this thread. It just doesn't make sense to me (unless the majority of this board considers us to be intellectual giants worthy of a Platonic dialogue, which I highly doubt).

-Patrick

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aka, Grand Master Wheat Thin
"The difference between an individual terrorist and a government in some cases may be simply that the former has a bomb but doesn't have an air force."
-William Blum

Well... the reason I posted it is because the bored is to debate things... you debate, I debate, other people debate...

YAY

So what do you other folks think?

Can we do selfless acts?

some historical info on motivations...

Maslow's Hierarchy
1.Biological / Physiological Needs. These needs are biological and consists of the needs for oxygen, food, water, and a relatively constant body temperature. These needs are the strongest because if deprived, the person would die.
2.Security / Safety Needs. Except in times of emergency or periods of disorganization in the social structure (such as widespread rioting) adults do not experience their security needs. Children, however often display signs of insecurity and their need to be safe.
3.Social (Love, Affection and Belongingness) Needs. People have needs to escape feelings of loneliness and alienation and give (and receive) love, affection and the sense of belonging.
4.Ego / Esteem Needs. People need a stable, firmly based, high level of self-respect, and respect from others in order to feel satisfied, self confident and valuable. If these needs are not met, the person feels inferior, weak, helpless and worthless.
5.Self-actualization Fulfillment. Maslow describes self-actualization as an ongoing process.
Self-actualizing people are, with one single exception, involved in a cause outside their own skin. The are devoted, work at something, something very precious to them--som calling or vocation, in the old sense, the priestly sense. When you select out for careful study very fine and healthy people, strong people, creative people, saintly people, sagacious people... you get a different view of mankind. You ask how tall
can people grow, what can a human being become?

The people at each level in the hierarchy of needs seeks information on dealing with what is important to them.

1.Coping -seeking information when lost, out of food, or sick
2.Helping -seeking information on how to be safe such as food, shelter, emergency supplies
3.Enlightening -seeking information on how to have a happier marriage, more friends
4.Empowering -seeking information to help the ego
5.Edifying -seeking moral and spiritual uplifting such is found with the word of God, spiritual music, and paintings

Once a person is self actualized, one is in a position to find their calling. A musician must make music, an artist must paint, and a poet must write. If these needs are not met, the person feels restlessness, on edge, tense, and lacking something. Lower needs may also produce a restless feeling, but here is it much easier to find the
cause. If a person is hungry, unsafe, not loved or accepted, or lacking self-esteem the cause is apparent. It is not always clear what a person wants when there is a need for self-actualization.

Maslow believes that the only reason that people would not move through the needs to self-actualization is because of the hindrances placed in their way by society. For example, education can be a hindrance, or can promote personal growth. Maslow indicated that educational process could take some of the steps listed below
to promote personal growth:

1.We should teach people to be authentic; to be aware of their inner selves and to hear their inner-feeling voices.
2.We should teach people to transcend their own cultural conditioning, and become world citizens.
3.We should help people discover their vocation in life, their calling, fate or destiny. This is especially focused upon finding the right career and the right mate.
4.We should teach people that life is precious, that there is joy to be experienced in life, and if people are open to seeing the good and joyous in all kinds of situations, it makes life worth living.
5.We must accept the person and help him or her learn their inner nature. From real knowledge of aptitudes and limitations we can know what to build upon, what potentials are really there.
6.We must see that the person's basic needs are satisfied. That includes safety, belongingness and
esteem needs.
7.We should refreshen consciousness, teaching the person to appreciate beauty and the other good things in nature and in living.
8.We should teach people that controls are good, and complete abandon is bad. It takes control to improve the quality of life in all areas .
9.We should teach people to transcend the trifling problems and grapple with the serious problems in life. These include the problems of injustice, of pain, suffering and death.
10. We must teach people to be good choosers. They must be given practice in making choices, first between one goody and another; later between one god and another.

Acknowledgments

A. H. Maslow The Farther Reaches of Human Nature, Esalen Books, Viking Press
SBN 670-30853-6 hardbound, 670-00360-3 softbound

Abraham H. Maslow Toward a Psychology of Being, D. Van Nostrand Company, 1968
Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 68-30757

On June 8, 1970, A.H. Maslow passed away due to a fatal heart attack.

N.B. All fairly neat so far as I see, but the basic answer remains -- Selfish rules the individual, from near term through far term future .

If interested in Much More Maslow, the web has many sources. :)

Awesome post... thanks for the info