Good, bad, indifferent?

What are your thoughts?

Personally Im against it... I see the point and how it is supposed to do good, but in the end its just another form of racial segrigation...

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"Who wants some? Huh? Who wants a little?"
-TOAO Ash

It is not another form of racial segregation. Affirmative Action as we know it today has a lot of problems and needs some re-working, however it is still extremely neccessary. Do you think black people and/or women could just wait around for the rulers to do the right thing? It is historical fact unless forced to, people will not do the right thing. That is why there was a Civil Rights Movement and an Equal Rights Ammendment.

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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.

Originally posted by freedom:
It is not another form of racial segregation. Affirmative Action as we know it today has a lot of problems and needs some re-working, however it is still extremely neccessary. Do you think black people and/or women could just wait around for the rulers to do the right thing? It is historical fact unless forced to, people will not do the right thing. That is why there was a Civil Rights Movement and an Equal Rights Ammendment.




Of course it is segregation... it is giving someone a benefit because of the color of their skin, or their gender... maybe segregation was the wrong word to use but the fact remains its favoring someone because of their race...


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"Who wants some? Huh? Who wants a little?"
-TOAO Ash

Originally posted by DaOgre:

Of course it is segregation... it is giving someone a benefit because of the color of their skin, or their gender... maybe segregation was the wrong word to use but the fact remains its favoring someone because of their race...




Definitely the wrong choice of words.

seg·re·ga·tion (sgr-gshn)
n.
The act or process of segregating or the condition of being segregated.
The policy or practice of separating people of different races, classes, or ethnic groups, as in schools, housing, and public or commercial facilities, especially as a form of discrimination.
Genetics. The separation of paired alleles or homologous chromosomes, especially during meiosis, so that the members of each pair appear in different gametes.

Their would be absolutely no need to give someone a benifit because of their race if it were not fact that people were discriminated and oppressed based on their race/gender. And yes it is still prevelant in todays society. Remember Denny's, Circuit City, Texacco, Coca-Cola and these are just a few big companies that got caught a mere microcosm of corparate America.


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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.

I thought a little background would be helpful before it starts.

Politics | Affirmative Action

Until the mid-1960s legal barriers prevented blacks and other racial minorities in the United States from entering many jobs and educational institutions. While women were rarely legally barred from jobs or education, many universities would not admit them and many employers would not hire them. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibited discrimination in public accommodations and employment. A section of the act known as Title VII, which specifically banned discrimination in employment, laid the groundwork for the subsequent development of affirmative action. The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC), created by the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and the Office of Federal Contract Compliance became important enforcement agencies for affirmative action.

The term affirmative action was first used by President John F. Kennedy in a 1961 executive order. This order declared that federal contractors should "take affirmative action" to ensure that job applicants and employees are treated "without regard to their race, creed, color, or national origin." While the original goal of the Civil Rights Movement had been "color-blind" laws, simply ending a long-standing policy of discrimination did not go far enough for many people. As President Lyndon Johnson explained in a 1965 speech, "You do not take a person who, for years, has been hobbled by chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line of a race and say, 'you are free to compete with all the others,' and still justly believe that you have been completely fair."

President Richard Nixon was the first to implement federal policies designed to guarantee minority hiring. Responding to continuing racial inequalities in the work force, in 1969 the Nixon administration developed the Philadelphia Plan, requiring that contractors on federally assisted projects set specific goals for hiring minorities. Federal courts upheld this plan in 1970 and 1971.

CONTROVERSY
From its beginnings in the United States in the 1960s, affirmative action has been highly controversial. Critics charge that affirmative action policies, which give preferential treatment to people based on their membership in a group, violate the principle that all individuals are equal under the law. These critics argue that it is unfair to discriminate against members of one group today to compensate for discrimination against other groups in the past. They regard affirmative action as a form of reverse discrimination that unfairly prevents whites and men from being hired and promoted.

Advocates of affirmative action respond that discrimination is, by definition, unfair treatment of people because they belong to a certain group. Therefore, effective remedies must systematically aid groups that have suffered from discrimination. Supporters contend that affirmative action policies are the only way to ensure an integrated society in which all segments of the population have an equal opportunity to share in jobs, education, and other benefits. They argue that numerical goals for hiring, promotions, and college admissions are necessary to integrate fields traditionally closed to women and minorities because of discrimination.

LEGISLATION AND SUPREME COURT RULINGS
The scope and limitations of affirmative action policy have been defined through a series of legislative initiatives and decisions by the Supreme Court of the United States. In Griggs v. Duke Power (1971) the Supreme Court held that Title VII bans "not only overt discrimination but also practices that are fair in form but discriminatory in operation." In order to avoid discrimination lawsuits under Title VII, public and private employers began to adopt hiring policies designed to recruit more minorities. The Equal Opportunity Act of 1972 expanded Title VII protections to educational institutions, leading to the extension of affirmative action to colleges and universities.

In later cases the Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of affirmative action but placed some restrictions on its implementation. The Supreme Court's ruling in Regents of the University of California v. Bakke (1978) declared that it was unconstitutional for the medical school of the University of California at Davis to establish a rigid quota system by reserving a certain number of places in each class for minorities. However, the ruling upheld the right of schools to consider a variety of factors when evaluating applicants, including race, ethnicity, gender, and economic status. In United Steelworkers v. Weber (1979) the Court ruled that a short-term voluntary training program that gave preference to minorities was constitutional. The Court reasoned that a temporary program designed to remedy specific past discriminatory practices did not unduly restrict the advancement of whites. In Fullilove v. Klutznick (1980) the Supreme Court upheld a provision of the Public Works Employment Act of 1977, which provided a 10 percent "set-aside" for hiring minority contractors on federally funded public works projects. The majority of the justices believed that the Congress of the United States has special powers to remedy past and ongoing discrimination in the awarding of federal contracts.

Conservative justices appointed to the Supreme Court by Republican presidents in the 1980s and 1990s attempted to limit the scope of affirmative action. Although sharply divided on the issue, the Court has struck down a number of affirmative action programs as unfair or too broad in their application. In Wygant v. Jackson Board of Education (1986) the Supreme Court struck down a plan to protect minority teachers from layoffs at the expense of white teachers with greater seniority. In Richmond v. J. A. Croson Co. (1989) the Court rejected a local set-aside program for minority contractors, ruling that local governments do not have the same power as Congress to enact such programs. The Supreme Court's ruling in Ward's Cove Packing Company v. Antonio (1989) revised the standards established by the 1971 Griggs decision. The Ward's Cove decision required that employees filing discrimination lawsuits demonstrate that specific hiring practices had led to racial disparities in the workplace. Even if this could be shown, these hiring practices would still be legal if they served "legitimate employment goals of the employer."

In Metro Broadcasting v. Federal Communications Commission (1990) the Court upheld federal laws designed to increase the number of minority-owned radio and television stations. These rulings did not signal the end of affirmative action. Meanwhile, Congress responded to a number of conservative rulings by the Supreme Court by passing the Civil Rights Act of 1991, which strengthened antidiscrimination laws and largely reversed the Ward's Cove decision.

RECENT DEVELOPMENTS
In the 1990s affirmative action became a highly charged legal and political issue. In Adarand Constructors v. Peסa (1995) the Supreme Court examined a federal statute that reserved "not less than 10 percent" of funds provided for highway construction for small businesses owned by "socially and economically disadvantaged individuals." The Court's majority opinion, written by Sandra Day O'Connor, overturned the statute and declared that even federal affirmative action programs are constitutional only when they are "narrowly tailored" to serve a "compelling government interest." In April 1998 a federal appeals court eliminated a Federal Communications Commission program designed to increase opportunities for minorities in broadcasting.

Affirmative action has been controversial in local politics as well. Under pressure from Governor Pete Wilson, the regents of the University of California voted in 1995 to end all affirmative action in hiring and admissions for the entire state university system. In 1996 the Fifth U.S. Circuit Court barred the University of Texas Law School from "any consideration of race or ethnicity" in its admissions decisions. Since these rulings have been enacted, both institutions have seen a dramatic drop not only in the admissions of black and Hispanic students but also in the number of minority applicants.

In 1996 California voters endorsed Proposition 209, called the "Civil Rights Initiative" by its supporters, ending all state-sponsored affirmative action programs. At that time, commentators predicted a wave of similar state rulings barring race and gender preferences. However, efforts failed in Ohio, Colorado, and Florida to collect signatures for a similar ballot initiative. Bills modeled on Proposition 209 have been introduced in 13 state legislatures and none has been successful. In November 1997 Houston, Texas, voters defeated a ballot measure that would have repealed the city's race and gender-based hiring programs.

With legislatures, the public, and the courts divided over the issue, the status of affirmative action remains uncertain.




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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.

IM with freedom on this.

I don't believe that affirmative action should mean getting a subpar worker, but if there are two people, same credentials, abilities, etc, I think there should be a 'quota' to help not have discrimination.

One thing freedom, black people aren't the only ones discriminated against. :-) Remember that. White people (sometimes) but indians, mexicans, etc etc.

The problem is, by IDEA affimative action (how I defined it) is good, but it really can't be regulated without using quotas, and quotas are blind numbers.

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Manu Narayan

Originally posted by Manu:
IM with freedom on this.

I don't believe that affirmative action should mean getting a subpar worker, but if there are two people, same credentials, abilities, etc, I think there should be a 'quota' to help not have discrimination.

One thing freedom, black people aren't the only ones discriminated against. :-) Remember that. White people (sometimes) but indians, mexicans, etc etc.

The problem is, by IDEA affimative action (how I defined it) is good, but it really can't be regulated without using quotas, and quotas are blind numbers.



Now it has started. I knew that someone would inevitably bring up quotas. Quotas is the dirty word that people use to discredit and attack affirmative action. The use of quotas is not what affirmative action is all about but it is one of the problems that came along. Quotas are hard to stomach because everyone will have a story that an under qualified black/woman got the job because of it...... No, maybe they gave the black or woman the job because they had ilegally discriminated in the past and now were trying to do right. So they gave that black/woman/other minority the opportunity that they had previously denied because of race, because of their race. Is that so tragic?


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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.

Yeah that is.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

And yeah, Quotas are part of the system that came a long that made it not work. You yourself said that Affirmative action is needed, but the system needs reform. Quotas are an aspect of that.

We live off of a system of capitalism and economics, how can we in good concise have people hire someoen who is not upt op par or inadequate JUST BECAUSE OF THEIR COLOR.

Like I said, I believe a 'quota' is fine, if that doesn't involved having to settle for a worker with less skill.

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Manu Narayan

Originally posted by Manu:
Yeah that is.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

And yeah, Quotas are part of the system that came a long that made it not work. You yourself said that Affirmative action is needed, but the system needs reform. Quotas are an aspect of that.

We live off of a system of capitalism and economics, how can we in good concise have people hire someoen who is not upt op par or inadequate JUST BECAUSE OF THEIR COLOR.

Like I said, I believe a 'quota' is fine, if that doesn't involved having to settle for a worker with less skill.



If you search hard enough you will always be able to find someone white that will have better qualifications. All you have to do is hold out. That is part of the problem of saying it has to be based soley on qualifications. Now I don't think someone with a high school diploma and no experience should get an opportunity for a degree required entry level position but maybe if they graduated with a 2.8 not a 4.0 but had their degree they could still be considered or you could just wait until you got a white applicant with more experience and continue to discrriminate.
It is very tricky and it needs a lot of work. I guess that is why on the face of it a lot of people would just as soon throw it out all together. You may be right that some form of quotas is the only way it works but we have to be very careful.


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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.

see, now you're hitting on the intent of my post. We NEED fairness, a lack of discrimination, but how do you regulate that or mandate that?

As far as there always beign a better white candidate, you don't seem to think too highly of us minorities do you?

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Manu Narayan

Originally posted by Manu:
see, now you're hitting on the intent of my post. We NEED fairness, a lack of discrimination, but how do you regulate that or mandate that?

As far as there always beign a better white candidate, you don't seem to think too highly of us minorities do you?



I say that because of the numbers and the population difference hence if you hold out you should always but maybe not be able to find a better qualified white and justify discrimination.



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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.

I am sure it is possible to wait around for a better qualified candidate who is white. I also do not deny that some sick people would do that. However, I do not think that that sitation would happen very often. Maybe it is just because I live in California, but I do not know of anyone here who would actually choose to wait for white employee to come along if they are trying to hire someone. Again, I am not saying that it does not happen, but I cannot see this being such a major concern. People today (in southern california) are so much more open to hiring minorities.

Some people could also hold out for a better qualified minority, but we chould not take that into account I guess.

Nate

I think affirmative action is silly. Want to know why? Because its 100% arbitrary... Give me some sort of criteria for proving someone belongs to a certain race or ethnicity and then we'll talk. Affirmative action is just as stupid as racism, they both rely on the same psuedo-biological quackery and they both justify each other.

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"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." -Nietzsche

A second point worth making is if most corporation and business' did only hire white hued males then that would leave something like almost 70% of the population unemployed, obviously thats not the case. So the basis for saying discrimination is a rampant problem is very shakey.

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"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." -Nietzsche

Originally posted by CodyChaos:
A second point worth making is if most corporation and business' did only hire white hued males then that would leave something like almost 70% of the population unemployed, obviously thats not the case. So the basis for saying discrimination is a rampant problem is very shakey.



Well it is much deeper than that and they now have found it acceptable to hire white women but pay them less money. They will also hire the right kind of black people. Typically women and light skinned black males. And yes there are still plenty of companies that will hold out for the better qualified white male especially if it is a position where the earnings are high or white males would have to be supervised. California is a world unto itself. Down here in the south you can make take the wrong exit and it is like the twilight zone. You can barel tell if it is 2001 or 1801.
Here is an excert from an article written about black history month that has some very interesting and relevant info:
"A few speeches here, a few posters there, a few ads everywhere and we're
all supposed to forget the continuing widespread injustice and inequity
of race in America. We've created a string of holidays and rituals
throughout the year that effectively appease people who have every
reason to be upset about the privileges bestowed based on class, race,
gender and sexuality.

What have we gotten in return for our complacency? Thirty-four white
men. Those are the chairmen of the 34 standing committees in the new
107th Congress. In a country where women make up the majority of the
people, and where blacks and Latinos count for a quarter of the
population, white male political leadership is still shockingly and
anachronistically unrepresentative.

Of the 18 committee chairs in the House of Representatives, only two
were born in the last half century, half were born in the 1920s and 30s,
none are believed to be gay, all are Republicans, and all are white men.
It's not much different in the Senate. There are no Latinos, no gays and
no blacks in the entire U.S. Senate, a problem that became glaringly
apparent when the Congressional Black Caucus could not find a single
senator to support its opposition to Florida's electoral vote
certification last month. Eighty-eight of the 100 U.S. Senators are men.

Newsweek magazine reported in 1993 that white males make up just 39.2
percent of the population, "yet they account for 82.5 percent of the
Forbes 400 (folks worth at least $265 million), 77 percent of Congress,
92 percent of state governors, 70 percent of tenured college faculty,
almost 90 percent of daily newspaper editors, (and) 77 percent of TV
news directors." The sad news is that the numbers haven't changed much
since then.

When 39 percent of the population controls 70-90 percent of the power,
it's not because they're the only ones who can. It's because they set
the standards for what it takes to get power. Despite all the rhetoric
about "meritocracy," what we have here is nothing less than "affirmative
action" for white men.

Since the beginning of the republic, every president, every chief
justice, every speaker of the house has been white and male. Every
single one. America will celebrate its 225th birthday with a president
who lost the election and an attorney general who doesn't believe in
civil rights. Both, of course, are white men.

That's what democracy looks like in America 2001. In fact, it looks
remarkably like "democracy" did 20 years ago, or 225 years ago. We don't
often challenge the status quo because white men made the rules that
make us believe the status quo is fair. Women and minorities have been
somewhat easily pacified by tokenism, symbolism and holidays. "It's just
a jump to the left," the character explains. "And then a step to the
right," the Rocky Horror Picture Show chorus reminds us. A few
well-thrown crumbs tossed to the left and we find ourselves fighting one
another instead of fighting the status quo as it quietly lurches ever
rightward."
Now how do you think you would feel if your entire life you were on the wrong end of the numbers? Can you honestly say you would feel the same way?



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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.

But you didnt answer my first post, which is the most important point. Besides, theres lots of reasons why white males are disproportionately wealthy and hold more elected offices besides racism. Also, theres really two issues here sexism and racism. Its easy to polarize the statistics when you group white women with minorities, but you have to realize they arent a minority. The reason more women dont hold more political offices or earn fat salaries has a lot to do with pregnancy and child rearing. A lot of women dont pursue big careers, or have their careers hindered, because of their kids. You will also find fewer women studying the applied sciences for whatever reason. But those are their perogatives. As far as minorities I wouldnt expect to see more than 10 or 12 percent of congress or whatever made up of black persons because thats keeping with the general ratio in the population overall. Infact accounting for black women who drop out of the picture for the reasons i mentioned youd probably expect only to see 6 or 7 percent in Congress. In fact in the year 2000 there were 435 members of the house of reps of whom 37 were black which is like 8.5% which is what youd expect given the black population of the country. The Senate is extremely biased towards being populated by white males but then again the whole concept of the senate is that its non representational in terms of population demographics which seems quite silly to me, it really wouldnt bother me if they did away with it all together. In a true democracy minorities have no power anyway because its the majority who rules. i know we dont live in a Democracy, we live in a Republic, but its still worth keeping in mind.

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"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." -Nietzsche

As far as the private sector goes, thats their choice, if they are going to be ignorant racists and reject reason, then hey what can you do? I say let them pay the economic penalty. Naturally all the excellent female and minority workers will go to work for the companies that dont practice salary/wage discrimination and the discriminatory companies lose out.

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"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." -Nietzsche

I mean hey dont get me wrong here sexuall andracial discrimination piss the hell out of me but like I said Affirmitive action just seems really dumb and contradictory. Plus the thought government thugs (lawyers, etc) enforcing it makes my skin crawl.

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"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." -Nietzsche

Count one Demacrat against affirmative action (AA). There may have been a time and a place for it but that time has past. I think it is nothing more than reverse descrimination, simple and plain.

Having grown up in a city that has a majority of blacks in its borders, and witnessing the COMPLETELY imcompetant all black (99%) city government and the black politcal machine implement AA, I am over it. Our Black political machine is somewhat famous in the U.S. for their power and corruption and they have been given the LEGAL tools of AA to dish out FAT government contracts and schoolerships to gain power and wealth. They given construction projects to these jackleg, fly-by night opperations with no experience that have huge (100-200 percent) cost over runs and the finnished products usually suck *** .

Just ONE fine example. We have an old concert hall called the Masque (sp?) and this controversial black contrator got this multi million dollar renovation contract from his good friends in city hall (I know for a fact there was a half million dollar kickback). That guy went in there with all black subs and they simply fugged it up. The cost to the tax payers ended up being nearly double. To make matters worse, a handfull of black Muslims (will prob NEVER see Mecca or know what it is) complained that the name Masque was an insult. The city fathers decided to change the name of a city treasure to appese these fools in the name of "political correctness http://discussanything.com/Ubb/rolleyes.gif

I have had it with the way these fools have mismanged this city and the best thing that ever happened to them froma money and power standpoint is AA

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Winner of the "peoples Choice award" for supreme advocate for the people!

I'm not "always right", it just seems that way

Spelling is for kids! I think you got the point!

Originally posted by CodyChaos:
I think affirmative action is silly. Want to know why? Because its 100% arbitrary... Give me some sort of criteria for proving someone belongs to a certain race or ethnicity and then we'll talk. Affirmative action is just as stupid as racism, they both rely on the same psuedo-biological quackery and they both justify each other.


I'm not sure what kind of criteria you need. The criteria used to racially profile would probably be good enough to determine who is brown/black and having been the victim of discrimination and oppression in this country. You do have a point about the women but there are more and more women pursuing political aspirations but their sex is often used against them in campaign similarly to the way you were using it. I have brown skin, my mother was white but let me tell you this society never treated me like I was white. In fact they reminded me on almost every turn that I was not. On the few occasions I ever tried to put on an app or school form that I was white. The teacher/official quickly corrected me and even after explanation insisted that I identify myself as black or even Negro.
I'm not sure what you are getting at, it is pretty clear to me.



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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.

Originally posted by Fordman50:
Count one Demacrat against affirmative action (AA). There may have been a time and a place for it but that time has past. I think it is nothing more than reverse descrimination, simple and plain.


I will ask you the same question that I asked Mav. Would you prefer the society that existed before AA? Would you like a return to that society? Affirmative Action is still neccessary it just has to be studied and it has to be done way differently to prevent some of the things we all hate about it. Not every black elected(has nothing to do with AA) to city council is/was incompetent it is just as a group they have not been very succesfull. The mayor is white by the way and is running for Lt. Governor. As far as black contracts and sub-par work and kick backs etc... That sh-t has goes on in almost every political machine and the practice of it was invented by white poloticians and buisness men ARRRGH..thugs. That sh-t has nothing to do with AA. That sh-t would happen regardless of AA. The only difference is that in this instance blacks got to steal the money instead of whites. So that makes you against AA? Not a good argument.



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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.

Originally posted by freedom:
[BThat sh-t has goes on in almost every political machine and the practice of it was invented by white poloticians and buisness men ARRRGH..thugs. That sh-t has nothing to do with AA. That sh-t would happen regardless of AA. The only difference is that in this instance blacks got to steal the money instead of whites. So that makes you against AA? Not a good argument.

[/B]

That is true but it wasnt legally protected croneyism though.

The Mayor is a white figure head and you know it. In Richmond the City Manager has all the power. Tim is a token to help stop the tide of the last few white people like me from hemeraging to the counties. You know its bad when the remaining liberals start to leave.

For you Californians. Our old POS city manager was Robert Bob. He is now the manager of Oakland CA, our sister city to the west. The two cities have a lot in common too. That arogant POS was the highest paid city manager or mayor in the U.S. here too. He made 165k in 1989 back when the avg income was about 21k. All that money for a man who completely failed at his job!!

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Winner of the "peoples Choice award" for supreme advocate for the people!

I'm not "always right", it just seems that way

Spelling is for kids! I think you got the point!

[This message has been edited by Fordman50 (edited 06-20-2001).]

I don't think that Tim is anyones figure head. I do agree that Rob Bob was not all that, especially considering he was making a mint. Legal or ilegal, wrong is wrong.

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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.

[/b][/QUOTE]
I'm not sure what kind of criteria you need. The criteria used to racially profile would probably be good enough to determine who is brown/black and having been the victim of discrimination and oppression in this country. You do have a point about the women but there are more and more women pursuing political aspirations but their sex is often used against them in campaign similarly to the way you were using it. I have brown skin, my mother was white but let me tell you this society never treated me like I was white. In fact they reminded me on almost every turn that I was not. On the few occasions I ever tried to put on an app or school form that I was white. The teacher/official quickly corrected me and even after explanation insisted that I identify myself as black or even Negro.
I'm not sure what you are getting at, it is pretty clear to me.


[/B][/QUOTE]


So you are saying AA should be applied to people based soley on the color of their skin? Thats like the textbook definition of racism. It makes no sense to assume you can say anything about where a person came from, how wealthy they are, what their life experiences have been just by looking at their skin tone. Thats a little bitty part of one gene that determines that. AA and racism enable each other. Who gets to determine how black is black or how light is white or whatever? Its a totally subjective decision that NO ONE is qualified to make. Besides as long as you have affirmative action alot of people will simply write off high achieving black persons as having relied on a crutch to get where they are and being udeserving whether they actually benefitted from AA or not. Wouldnt a better solution be to let people have have been substatially (and with proof) affected by racial discrimination sue the discriminators on an individual basis rather than apply a blanketing set of subjective laws to everybody?


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"Damn ye, you are a snealing puppet, and so are all those who will submit to be governed by the laws which rich men have made for their own security, for the cowardly whelps have not the courage otherwise to defend what they get by their knavery. But damn ye altogether. Damn them for a pack of crafty rascals, and you, who serve them, for a parcel of hen hearted numbskulls. They villify us, the scoundrels do, then there is only this difference, they rob the poor under the cover of law, forsooth and we plunder the rich under the protection of our courage: had ye not better make one of us than sneak after the arses of these villans for employment?"

-Pirate Captain Charles Bellamy to captain of a capyured merchant man

Originally posted by CodyChaos:

So you are saying AA should be applied to people based soley on the color of their skin? Thats like the textbook definition of racism. It makes no sense to assume you can say anything about where a person came from, how wealthy they are, what their life experiences have been just by looking at their skin tone. Thats a little bitty part of one gene that determines that. AA and racism enable each other. Who gets to determine how black is black or how light is white or whatever? Its a totally subjective decision that NO ONE is qualified to make. Besides as long as you have affirmative action alot of people will simply write off high achieving black persons as having relied on a crutch to get where they are and being udeserving whether they actually benefitted from AA or not. Wouldnt a better solution be to let people have have been substatially (and with proof) affected by racial discrimination sue the discriminators on an individual basis rather than apply a blanketing set of subjective laws to everybody?


Originally posted by CodyChaos:
So you are saying AA should be applied to people based soley on the color of their skin? Thats like the textbook definition of racism.

rac·ism (rszm)
n.
The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

racism n 1: the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races 2: discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race [syn: racialism]

Don't think you are right on that one. AA is an attempt to give opportunity to a people who have historicaly and currently suffered/suffer as a result of racism. The fact that the race/gender that suffered is the group that is to benifit does not equal racism. Get it straight! Don't try to blur the issue. I would not give a damn what anyone thought of how I achieved my success. If they want to go toe to toe I will prove that I can hold my own and deserve to be where I am. Without AA however I may have never been given the opportunity due to racism and discrimination.

Originally posted by CodyChaos:

Who gets to determine how black is black or how light is white or whatever? Its a totally subjective decision that NO ONE is qualified to make.

I really don't get this argument at all. It does not seem that whites had/have any problem at all determining who they enslaved, oppressed, and discrimnated against for over the last 300 years. American society has qualified themselves as experts as to who is black and who is not from ever since the 3/5 human and one drop laws.

Those people that you talk about that would just write off high achieving blacks.... People that would do that are going to do and say sick sh-t regardless so let's not bring people that are clearly not going to be part of any kind of solution. How fair is it to put the burden of proof against the people that are already disadvantaged and oppressed? How often do you think they might actually have the education, power, and resources to prove they have been done wrong? Usually a big blatant and arogant mistake has to be made before anyone can really prove that they are being discriminated against. But on a whole it can not be denied that this country's racism and dicrimination has been systemic. Therefore the system that created the problem ought to be responsible for rectifying the problem. I have repeatedly said that AA as we know it does have some problems. Some of the things you might despise about it, I probably do too. I just know that we have not come far enough to just end it completely. Colleges that want to give opportunity to blacks ought to be able to continue. Companies should make concentrated efforts to train, mentor, and promote black achievement but most do not. The company I work for does not have even one black director or vp and this is a big company. It only has about 1/2 dozen black males that work in proffessional positions. I have been here 2 years and I have seen white males get promotions, raises, and opportunities that not only have I not been offered but been denied when I asked. One of my higher up supervisors said to me one day when he was denying my request for training, "Don't even think about getting a lawyer, we have a floor full of them that squash stuff all the time." I hadn't said anything about anything legal. He knew he was wrong and was letting me know that even so there was nothing I could do about it. Of course I am looking for another job. This country up until the Civil Rights Act was all about AA for white males and blacks as a people have suffered and are still suffering because of it. What do you do or what have you done that is part of the solution?


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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.

I HATE arguing definitions, but here it goes.

racism, according to both of your definitions, is discrimination based on race. Well, discriminatio is defined to be the act of distinguishing categorically rather than individually. AA does just this. Thus, the "racism" of AA is not a hatred like racism against African Americans, but it is still a form of discrimination and racism. I do not think that the best approach is to say that some general forms of racism are OK in the job market, but others are not.

Also, about your experiences at that company, that is awful and a despicable example of human behavior and morality. That company should be fined and forced to stop their discriminatory actions. I personally do not think that the solution is to continue discrimination by forcing the company to view african americans any differently than whites. The solution is for the country to become color-blind in its hiring and job market (not color blind in racial identity, just in the economy. I do not advocate a loss of cultural identity). I do not have a good solution, except for people to just do the right thing, but I know well enough that most people will not do that. However, I do not believe that we should fight discrimination with more discrimination.

Originally posted by Thutmose:
I HATE arguing definitions, but here it goes.

racism, according to both of your definitions, is discrimination based on race. Well, discriminatio is defined to be the act of distinguishing categorically rather than individually. AA does just this. Thus, the "racism" of AA is not a hatred like racism against African Americans, but it is still a form of discrimination and racism. I do not think that the best approach is to say that some general forms of racism are OK in the job market, but others are not.

Also, about your experiences at that company, that is awful and a despicable example of human behavior and morality. That company should be fined and forced to stop their discriminatory actions. I personally do not think that the solution is to continue discrimination by forcing the company to view african americans any differently than whites. The solution is for the country to become color-blind in its hiring and job market (not color blind in racial identity, just in the economy. I do not advocate a loss of cultural identity). I do not have a good solution, except for people to just do the right thing, but I know well enough that most people will not do that. However, I do not believe that we should fight discrimination with more discrimination.

Well I guess all that is fine, but not good enough for me. I also disagree thas AA is racism no matter how you try to manipulate the definition. At least you admit if you leave people to do the right thing, they won't.


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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

Freedom, let me ask you something.

If you dind't get a job because of the color of your skin...would you say you were discriminated against? Would you think that you were turned away by a racist? Probably right?

So lets say there is a job with AA. And a white person (or indian, or mexican) is turned away because they NEED a black employee. Did the white person not get the job (asusming credentials are there) due to the color of HIS/HER skin? Was he/she not disciminated againsted? Did she fall prey to racism? no. But a law that by heart/intent discriminates.

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Manu Narayan

I think one of the key problems here was touched on by thut... in order to rectify these problems the solution isnt to impose quotas or hire one color of skin over another... the solution is to "simply" become color blind... I believe the country is headed in a direction that is more diversified... I think that the youth of our age are more intelligent and racially "de-sensitized" than those of the past...

I grew up in poverty... I am white... now you can argue (and you would be wrong to do such) that my parents got "breaks" because they were white... now maybe they didn't have to fight through the same thing that mexicans or blacks might... but regardless they went out and made a better life for themselves and for their son and daughter...

I remember some of the **** I had to go through as a child so my family could eat... and one of the reason this sickens me is because I am white... and if we are to believe affirmitive action... I have an advantage and DIDNT come from poverty... and DIDNT come from a situation where I may have been disadvantaged... but the truth is I was. Sure people were worse off... and people were better off...

What gives you or anyone reading my job application the right to look at it and read that I have checked "white" and say... oh unfortunatly you have recieved too many breaks in life for being white so we need to hire a black/mexican/indian/whatever instead... Im sorry...

This is racism... this is favoring one person over another because of race. Perhaps you can justify it by saying that since one race was wronged in the past they have the right now in modern times to be given an advantage. But as long as we have that... the cycle will continue, and we will have a society that sees one another as one race or another, rather than humans... and truly, one race.

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DOG, n. A kind of additional or subsidiary Deity designed to catch the overflow and surplus of the world's worship. This Divine Being in some of his smaller and silkier incarnations takes, in the affection of Woman, the place to which there is no human male aspirant. The Dog is a survival -- an anachronism. He toils not, neither does he spin, yet Solomon in all his glory never lay upon a door-mat all day long, sun-soaked and fly-fed and fat, while his master worked for the means wherewith to purchase the idle wag of the Solomonic tail, seasoned with a look of tolerant recognition.
Ambrose Bierce (1842 - 1914), The Devil's Dictionary

Originally posted by freedom:
I really don't get this argument at all. It does not seem that whites had/have any problem at all determining who they enslaved, oppressed, and discrimnated against for over the last 300 years. American society has qualified themselves as experts as to who is black and who is not from ever since the 3/5 human and one drop laws.




Thats a completely false statement. You will note that "Mulattos" existed in a very reall legal limbo and were often dealt with comnpletely arbitrarily by authorities. In some places they recieved full white priviliges, in others they were slaves. Sometimes local ordinances would specificaly address Mulattos, but they were not specifically addressed in the constitution. The "Marroons" in the Carribbean are another example. I know that in British and French colonies they were granted autonomous rights and could not be enslaved and were allowed to maintain their own militias and land holdings, liberties never accorded to other blacks.

Persons of Spanish or Mexican origin have darker skin too than most people from England does that mean they are automatically discriminated against? **** when they ruled California and Tejas they used to discriminate against "white" Americans, hell they are the largest ethinc group in LA county. What about persons of Irish lineage, Irish immigrants got discriminated against too? What about the Native Americans? The black Buffalo Soldiers slaughtered thousands of Indians, should that qualify Native Americans for more benefits than blacks? What about Jews? They've been heavily discriminated against, they have white skin, how do you tell them apart? What about "white" people who convert to the Jewish faith does that make them a Jew and make them inheritors of the legacy of antisemitism? What about gays, communists, scientologists, transvestites, punk rockers with purple mohawks etc etc they have all been discriminated against at one time or another? Isnt it wrong to discriminate against them too? What about white folks applying to Tuskegee University, or Grambling State or white girls applying to Bennett, should they get prefernce because those institutions are largely black controlled/attended?

As far as AA being racism. I will once again point out THERE ARE NO SCIENTIFIC CRITERIA FOR DEFINING RACES AMOUNGST HUMANS. Im getting the feeling you dont believe this? There are no demonstrable biological criteria for determining different races of humans. Hence, anytime you refer to or seek to recognize "racial" distinctions you are practicing racism. Like Nate pointed out anytime you attempt to group people by "race" you are practicing racism: You are imposing a subjective criteria on a group of people and making incorrect generalizations. This is why racism is bull****! Its irrational. However this is exactly what AA does, it groups people into racial categories and makes the assumption that a few extremely loosely defined physical characteristics and national lineage define who a person is. I hope Ive made this clearer.




------------------
"Damn ye, you are a sneaking puppet, and so are all those who will submit to be governed by the laws which rich men have made for their own security, for the cowardly whelps have not the courage otherwise to defend what they get by their knavery. But damn ye altogether. Damn them for a pack of crafty rascals, and you, who serve them, for a parcel of hen hearted numbskulls. They villify us, the scoundrels do, then there is only this difference, they rob the poor under the cover of law, forsooth and we plunder the rich under the protection of our courage: had ye not better make one of us than sneak after the arses of these villans for employment?"

-Pirate Captain Charles Bellamy to captain of a captured merchant man

Im sorry to hear about thr racial prejudice you get stuck with at your job. It makes me angry too. Have you talked to a lawyer about it? If youre in a dead end job whats the point of working there anyway y'know? Obviously the government isnt concerned with the injustices they are inflicting on you, why not redress it your self with the help of a private attorney or agency like the NAACP or ACLU.

------------------
"Damn ye, you are a sneaking puppet, and so are all those who will submit to be governed by the laws which rich men have made for their own security, for the cowardly whelps have not the courage otherwise to defend what they get by their knavery. But damn ye altogether. Damn them for a pack of crafty rascals, and you, who serve them, for a parcel of hen hearted numbskulls. They villify us, the scoundrels do, then there is only this difference, they rob the poor under the cover of law, forsooth and we plunder the rich under the protection of our courage: had ye not better make one of us than sneak after the arses of these villans for employment?"

-Pirate Captain Charles Bellamy to captain of a captured merchant man

As far as AA being racism. I will once again point out THERE ARE NO SCIENTIFIC CRITERIA FOR DEFINING RACES AMOUNGST HUMANS. Im getting the feeling you dont believe this? There are no demonstrable biological criteria for determining different races of humans

LOL "drop your pants, hmmm, 9 inches, over there your hired, next!"

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Winner of the "peoples Choice award" for supreme advocate for the people!

I'm not "always right", it just seems that way

Spelling is for kids! I think you got the point!

Originally posted by Manu:
Freedom, let me ask you something.

If you dind't get a job because of the color of your skin...would you say you were discriminated against? Would you think that you were turned away by a racist? Probably right?

So lets say there is a job with AA. And a white person (or indian, or mexican) is turned away because they NEED a black employee. Did the white person not get the job (asusming credentials are there) due to the color of HIS/HER skin? Was he/she not disciminated againsted? Did she fall prey to racism? no. But a law that by heart/intent discriminates.



Agreed and again AA has its problems.


------------------
"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

Originally posted by CodyChaos:

Thats a completely false statement. You will note that "Mulattos" existed in a very reall legal limbo and were often dealt with comnpletely arbitrarily by authorities. In some places they recieved full white priviliges, in others they were slaves. Sometimes local ordinances would specificaly address Mulattos, but they were not specifically addressed in the constitution. The "Marroons" in the Carribbean are another example. I know that in British and French colonies they were granted autonomous rights and could not be enslaved and were allowed to maintain their own militias and land holdings, liberties never accorded to other blacks.

Persons of Spanish or Mexican origin have darker skin too than most people from England does that mean they are automatically discriminated against? **** when they ruled California and Tejas they used to discriminate against "white" Americans, hell they are the largest ethinc group in LA county. What about persons of Irish lineage, Irish immigrants got discriminated against too? What about the Native Americans? The black Buffalo Soldiers slaughtered thousands of Indians, should that qualify Native Americans for more benefits than blacks? What about Jews? They've been heavily discriminated against, they have white skin, how do you tell them apart? What about "white" people who convert to the Jewish faith does that make them a Jew and make them inheritors of the legacy of antisemitism? What about gays, communists, scientologists, transvestites, punk rockers with purple mohawks etc etc they have all been discriminated against at one time or another? Isnt it wrong to discriminate against them too? What about white folks applying to Tuskegee University, or Grambling State or white girls applying to Bennett, should they get prefernce because those institutions are largely black controlled/attended?

As far as AA being racism. I will once again point out THERE ARE NO SCIENTIFIC CRITERIA FOR DEFINING RACES AMOUNGST HUMANS. Im getting the feeling you dont believe this? There are no demonstrable biological criteria for determining different races of humans. Hence, anytime you refer to or seek to recognize "racial" distinctions you are practicing racism. Like Nate pointed out anytime you attempt to group people by "race" you are practicing racism: You are imposing a subjective criteria on a group of people and making incorrect generalizations. This is why racism is bull****! Its irrational. However this is exactly what AA does, it groups people into racial categories and makes the assumption that a few extremely loosely defined physical characteristics and national lineage define who a person is. I hope Ive made this clearer.


Are you black? You couldn't be because if you lived as a black man in this country for the last 30 some years there is no way you could actually believe that white people in America have a problem with knowing who is black and who is not. Who to discriminate against and who not to. If they don't have a problem with that then they shouldn't have a problem with who they should try to help up/hand up(not hand out).

But let me just say okay your whole scientific mumbo jumbo is 100% correct. Then what should be done? Absolutely nothing? Ignore that American society and American politics is at least partialy responsible for the plight of those who are descendants of slavery? Just wait it out and see what happens? Continue to let the controlers make new laws that make it tougher and tougher to prove that you are being discriminated against? A lot of people here continue to argue about how bad AA is but offer no solutions. They offer nothing that they do or have ever done that might be part of the solution. If you are not part of the solution, you might be part of the problem! Do any of you hire/fire? Do you make any efforts at all to give opportunities to black males? What the f-ck do any of you do or have done except vehmently oppose AA? My statement is not completely false by any means. The situations and case you mention are so miniscual that they hardly matter and to bring a whole truck load of other sh-t into the picture does not reinforce your argument well. The systematic enslavement,oppression, and discrimination against black people in this country IS unique. The only thing close to it is probably South African Apartheid. The atrocities done to indigenous peoples of this country is also horrific but the US has always tried to make reparaitoins as they went along with the indigenous. Of course they were mostly lies. And I am in favor of AA for indigenous as well. As far as every other group you want to throw in the bag show me the systematic oppresion and discrimination over a 3-400 year period in this country, quit trying to bring the whole world into it. That is what seperates descendants of slave and indigenous from scientologist. Has anybody ever made an argument that their should be AA for transvestites? Why do you throw such nonsense around? When the Spanish controled Texas and California they were not Texas and California it was all Spanish territory and "white Americans" were trespassing and could have kept their arse on "American" soil. But they would go on to acquire..uhhh..steal those territories. Anyway, once again, an argument that isn't even relevant. The grouping or identifying people by race by itself is not racism and there is no way you will ever get me to believe it is. Racism is about supremacy,prejudice, and abuse based on race. I am aware that when you try to help one group based on race that the groups not recieving the benefit may feel discriminated against. But the discrimination is not with malice, abuse, or about supremacy. More often than not suprisingly it is someone white that wants to scream reverse discrimination. Maybe it is but it is not racism. So what the f-ck do you suggest? It has been pretty much agreed that if we leave people to do the right thing, they won't. No one has argued that without AA blacks would have done just as well or better after the Civil Rights Act 30 some years ago. I hear the argument, "I'm against it because it is discriminatroy" but I don't hear any champions of Civil Rights. Where would blacks be without Civil Rights that this country denied blacks for over 300 yrs. Was it reverse discrimination/racism when the Civil Rights Act was signed? It was based on race. Are you against that. Do you think that was uneccessary? I guess they were 100% wrong in what they did because "THERE ARE NO SCIENTIFIC CRITERIA FOR DEFINING RACES AMOUNGST HUMANS"


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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

Originally posted by CodyChaos:
Im sorry to hear about thr racial prejudice you get stuck with at your job. It makes me angry too. Have you talked to a lawyer about it? If youre in a dead end job whats the point of working there anyway y'know? Obviously the government isnt concerned with the injustices they are inflicting on you, why not redress it your self with the help of a private attorney or agency like the NAACP or ACLU.



Looking for another gig. You are right there is no point in working there. I am also filing and EEOC complaint. It probably won't do much good but anything they do to me after that can be considered retaliation and that is ilegal. I talked to one firm that did not take the case they did not give reason as to why and said just because they didn't take it did not mean there was not a case. I don't know how far I will go with this it is so tiring to always have to fight an opponent that you are no match for but I have been doing it all my life. I have had some victorys but I wish that I didn't have to fight at all.


------------------
"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

Originally posted by Fordman50:
LOL "drop your pants, hmmm, 9 inches, over there your hired, next!"


Well I guess I would miss out. Only 8 3/4 inches.LOL



------------------
"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

Originally posted by Fordman50:
LOL "drop your pants, hmmm, 9 inches, over there your hired, next!"



Oh, jesus can we not go there...



------------------
"Damn ye, you are a sneaking puppet, and so are all those who will submit to be governed by the laws which rich men have made for their own security, for the cowardly whelps have not the courage otherwise to defend what they get by their knavery. But damn ye altogether. Damn them for a pack of crafty rascals, and you, who serve them, for a parcel of hen hearted numbskulls. They villify us, the scoundrels do, then there is only this difference, they rob the poor under the cover of law, forsooth and we plunder the rich under the protection of our courage: had ye not better make one of us than sneak after the arses of these villans for employment?"

-Pirate Captain Charles Bellamy to captain of a captured merchant man

Well its not mumbo jumbo and yes it is true. No Im not black but i do know i have nothing against people for being black nor do I treat them disrespectfully or fear them or whatever. No i dont control a powerfull corporation or a government bureau. Which begs the questions why the hell should I or some one like me be punished for what some racist honkeys that i have nothing to do with did in the past? I think you are taking a completely self serving interest in this whole issue by disregareding other formerly oppressed groups which hey is your perogative but its really not winning any support here. The civil rights movement is totally justifiable because it was completely rational and was striking down irrational/racist policies. On the contrary AA is creating and enforcing racist/irrational criteria. Racism is a bi product of ignorance, the solution is simple: teach people that all the old racist crap they grew up with is bull****. Show people theres no difference between persons of different skin colors. The key is education. AA simply contributes to the notion that there is some difference.

------------------
"Damn ye, you are a sneaking puppet, and so are all those who will submit to be governed by the laws which rich men have made for their own security, for the cowardly whelps have not the courage otherwise to defend what they get by their knavery. But damn ye altogether. Damn them for a pack of crafty rascals, and you, who serve them, for a parcel of hen hearted numbskulls. They villify us, the scoundrels do, then there is only this difference, they rob the poor under the cover of law, forsooth and we plunder the rich under the protection of our courage: had ye not better make one of us than sneak after the arses of these villans for employment?"

-Pirate Captain Charles Bellamy to captain of a captured merchant man

Originally posted by freedom:
Looking for another gig. You are right there is no point in working there. I am also filing and EEOC complaint. It probably won't do much good but anything they do to me after that can be considered retaliation and that is ilegal. I talked to one firm that did not take the case they did not give reason as to why and said just because they didn't take it did not mean there was not a case. I don't know how far I will go with this it is so tiring to always have to fight an opponent that you are no match for but I have been doing it all my life. I have had some victorys but I wish that I didn't have to fight at all.




Im glad you are standing up for your rights. Its an admirable thing to do and I respect you very much for doing so.



------------------
"Damn ye, you are a sneaking puppet, and so are all those who will submit to be governed by the laws which rich men have made for their own security, for the cowardly whelps have not the courage otherwise to defend what they get by their knavery. But damn ye altogether. Damn them for a pack of crafty rascals, and you, who serve them, for a parcel of hen hearted numbskulls. They villify us, the scoundrels do, then there is only this difference, they rob the poor under the cover of law, forsooth and we plunder the rich under the protection of our courage: had ye not better make one of us than sneak after the arses of these villans for employment?"

-Pirate Captain Charles Bellamy to captain of a captured merchant man

Originally posted by CodyChaos:
No Im not black but i do know i have nothing against people for being black nor do I treat them disrespectfully or fear them or whatever.

Never thought you or other people with oppostition to AA were anti-black, just apathetic to the black cause.

Originally posted by CodyChaos:

Which begs the questions why the hell should I or some one like me be punished for what some racist honkeys that i have nothing to do with did in the past?

Why do you look at it as punishment? Why not look at it as just helping out and being part of the solution? But I guess you are right that if you don't want to and don't for whatever reason it would seem unfair to have to participate. You are force to participate in many things that if you had choice you would not and most of them don't help anybody with anything.

Originally posted by CodyChaos:

I think you are taking a completely self serving interest in this whole issue by disregareding other formerly oppressed groups which hey is your perogative but its really not winning any support here.

Self serving? Maybe. Disregarding others not even close. Just keeping it in perspective and not trying to bring in every oppressed group throughout time all around the world when that is not really relavant to AA in this country and why it is justifiable and still needed especially for blacks.

Originally posted by CodyChaos:

The civil rights movement is totally justifiable because it was completely rational and was striking down irrational/racist policies.

Now this has got me kind of confused. You say that the civil rights movement was completely rational? How? Do you think that irrational/racist policies don't exist anymore? The same logic and rational that leaders of the civil rights movement used back then, they are still using to support AA. Do you know who Oliver Hill is? There were many leaders of the Civil Rights Movement besides Dr. King and many of them are still alive. They are still champions of the black cause and most if not all firmly believe that AA is still neccessary. Are these people irrational now. And you failed to explain to me why it was ok to use race then but not now becaues of course "THERE ARE NO SCIENTIFIC CRITERIA FOR DEFINING RACES AMOUNGST HUMANS."

Originally posted by CodyChaos:

On the contrary AA is creating and enforcing racist/irrational criteria.

AA is not racist. Merely using race as a criteria does not make the policy racist.It is designed to help those who have suffered and still suffer because of their race and the long history that this country has of systemic oppression and racism. You say that the Civil Rights movement was completely rational. If you believe this then how can you believe that everything is done and corrected after 30 some years. The oppression that created the movement was 300 years in the making. 30 some years later everything is fine and corrected? How rational is that?

Originally posted by CodyChaos:

Racism is a bi product of ignorance, the solution is simple: teach people that all the old racist crap they grew up with is bull****. Show people theres no difference between persons of different skin colors. The key is education.

You may have something there but it would take one hell of an education campaign and it would have to be ongoing. To be truly effective it would have to reach everyone, probably simuletaneously. Man that sounds like it would cost a sh-t load of money. Who would pay for it? Certainly not you because you don't want to spend your money on something that you had nothing to do with and does not apply to you. And the millions and millions that would feel and think the same way would use the same arguments they use to oppose AA to fight it every inch of the way. Nice try though.


------------------
"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

[This message has been edited by freedom (edited 06-23-2001).]

[This message has been edited by freedom (edited 06-23-2001).]

There no point in me discussing this issue anymore, you dont understand what Im pointing out and my arguements are not swaying you nor yours swaying me.

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"He could not plead want of employment, nor incapacity of getting his bread in an honest way, but frankly own'd it was to get rid of the disagreeable superiority of some masters he was acquainted with and the love of novelty and change."

William Defoe on Bartholomew Roberts career of piracy

Originally posted by CodyChaos:
There no point in me discussing this issue anymore, you dont understand what Im pointing out and my arguements are not swaying you nor yours swaying me.



Hard to understand when your arguments start contradicting themselves.


------------------
"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

Uh hum uh hum. I said i was done but my ego drives me to continue... They dont contradict, you're just not understanding them. The civil rights movement of the 1960's that culminated in the enforcement of the 14th amendment. States and local governments had adopted legal policies (subjective racial policies) which violated the 14th and 24th amendments. It took the civil rights movement to get the government to enforce the law, something the government ought to have been doing all along. The civil rights movement was about deconstructing the myth of racial difference and eliminating racial criteria in government and the public sphere. AA is very different because it enforces racial criteria on government/public institutions. Now im sure there are people who participated in the civil rights movement who advocated AA, however because I support the destruction of racial criteria (which the civil rights movement achieved) does not mean i support the imposition of further racial criteria in the form of AA. There is nothing contradictory about it. YOU percieve it as contradictory because you dont recognize that AA is a proactive racist policy. Only you can change your perception, I cant do that for you nor would i be willing to force you too, hence why its silly for me to continue arguing.

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"He could not plead want of employment, nor incapacity of getting his bread in an honest way, but frankly own'd it was to get rid of the disagreeable superiority of some masters he was acquainted with and the love of novelty and change."

William Defoe on Bartholomew Roberts career of piracy

You're a funny guy. I knew you wouldn't be able to keep your pie hole shut. Let me ask you something. Do you believe that we should always seek to ensure that we are not leaving qualified people behind in participation in our society, simply because they don't conform to the mainstream/majority social and cultural faction? It would seem that on the one hand you might believe this as you can see that the Civil Rights movement was neccessary. On the other hand your continuing to insist that AA is racism demonstrates that you continue to be confused. As long as there is still a "compelling need" and no "negative reaction" is created AA is legitimate approach to assuring there is continued opportunity for a people that were/are discriminated against. What is your alternative?

------------------
"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

Your missing the point Freedom...whether you want to admit it or not... I have never said that people should be put down because they arent white... or shouldn't be given equal opportunity... but why shouldn't whites be given EQUAL opportunity... if you favor one race over another... regardless of the past, preasent or future... your descriminating... and if not...then the blacks weren't discriminated against... period...

Your offering a flawed seperationist system through the use of affirmitive action... you are condoning the seperation of peoples based on the color of their skin, and in so doing you are condoning the very racism which you say you fight...

your not fighting racism Freedom... your fighting for blacks to have more rights than whites because of the color of their skin... your doing nothing to heal the process... so in all your hollier than though arguments your not doing anything in MY eyes new and great... all your doing is telling me that as a white man.. Im discriminating against you, and I should be given limitations on what I can and cant do because of the color of your skin.

Thats how it looks to me anyways... maybe Im wrong... but thats how your coming across to me.

------------------
Well, if crime fighters fight crime and fire fighters fight fire, what do freedom fighters fight? They never mention that part to us, do they?
George Carlin

Originally posted by DaOgre:
Your missing the point Freedom...whether you want to admit it or not... I have never said that people should be put down because they arent white... or shouldn't be given equal opportunity... but why shouldn't whites be given EQUAL opportunity... if you favor one race over another... regardless of the past, preasent or future... your descriminating... and if not...then the blacks weren't discriminated against... period...

Your offering a flawed seperationist system through the use of affirmitive action... you are condoning the seperation of peoples based on the color of their skin, and in so doing you are condoning the very racism which you say you fight...

your not fighting racism Freedom... your fighting for blacks to have more rights than whites because of the color of their skin... your doing nothing to heal the process... so in all your hollier than though arguments your not doing anything in MY eyes new and great... all your doing is telling me that as a white man.. Im discriminating against you, and I should be given limitations on what I can and cant do because of the color of your skin.

Thats how it looks to me anyways... maybe Im wrong... but thats how your coming across to me.



First of all I am not missing the point at all. I have made concessions as to the flaws of AA. The opponents here just continue to insist that it is racism when it is not. Study AA action from its inception and why the govt. and the people that supported the govt. thought that it was necessary. Study and learn why AA was the only way blacks were ever going to be given opportunities.

Originally posted by DaOgre:

but why shouldn't whites be given EQUAL opportunity... if you favor one race over another... regardless of the past, preasent or future... your descriminating... and if not...then the blacks weren't discriminated against... period...

Statements like this are ridiculous to the point of being offensive. Equal opportunity for whites? White men control everything in this country and they are naturally looking out for their own and have been since they came here with their slaves in 1619. Equal opportunity for whites? This would not even be discussion if not for the systematic oppression and discrimination by whites. I am for equal opportunities for whites. How about I come work for you for free and change my name to Toby would that be equal enough for you? Are you familiar with Plessy vs. Fergueson? Do you know anything about the struggle of blacks in this country? I sure can't tell it. If you really feel as strongly about this as you are coming across then I can not see how you would not have felt the same way about the Civil Rights act of 1964. You could use the same arguments you are using now to oppose AA to oppose the legislation and many did. Are you like the opponents of the Civil Rights Act? Yes AA is based on race! If AA is/was really having a large negative effect on whites then I can see myself making further concessions because that is not the intent and I would agree that it is not legal. I know of many AA horror stories where there was a negative effect on whites and blacks but even still it has not been so widespread as to make me think we should abandon efforts to create opportunities for blacks. Opponents of AA want to destroy AA to the point where private companies can't have outreach or mentoring programs for underprivlidged youth if those youth happen to be almost exclusively black. Someone going to holler "reverse discrimination". The sh-t is crazy. For all the opposition that I am getting. Not one! Not one! person had offered any kind of solution. Not one person has offered anything they have done or would be willing to do. All they want to do is oppose and fight a policy that has opened doors that were always shut. A policy that gave opportunity for education where it had not been before. A policy that gave small black businesses the opportunity to compete where they had always been shut out. What should we do? Nothing? Go back to trusting that people will do the right thing when historically it is proven that they won't? I may be more opened minded than you think. Give me some workable alternatives and solutions and then tell me that you will be as vocal about them as you are about your opposition to AA. Then we might be getting somewhere.


------------------
"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

[This message has been edited by freedom (edited 06-25-2001).]

Originally posted by freedom:
You're a funny guy. I knew you wouldn't be able to keep your pie hole shut. Let me ask you something. Do you believe that we should always seek to ensure that we are not leaving qualified people behind in participation in our society, simply because they don't conform to the mainstream/majority social and cultural faction? It would seem that on the one hand you might believe this as you can see that the Civil Rights movement was neccessary. On the other hand your continuing to insist that AA is racism demonstrates that you continue to be confused. As long as there is still a "compelling need" and no "negative reaction" is created AA is legitimate approach to assuring there is continued opportunity for a people that were/are discriminated against. What is your alternative?



Nothing you said there rebukes any of the points i made in my previous posts. You're not changing my opinion, you are cementing it. You are making obviously false and generalized statements about white people and are participating in the sort of ignorance you claim to be fighting, but then you seem to be more concerned with getting your share of the pie than combating racism anyhow. Id really like to get you to change your perspective on the issue but its pretty frivolous through mediated communication. Its not that i care about getting the last word its just that ignorance bothers me and i try to rectify it on principle.



------------------
"He could not plead want of employment, nor incapacity of getting his bread in an honest way, but frankly own'd it was to get rid of the disagreeable superiority of some masters he was acquainted with and the love of novelty and change."

William Defoe on Bartholomew Roberts career of piracy

Originally posted by CodyChaos:
You're not changing my opinion, you are cementing it.

Your opinion was already cemented as you are probably one of those people born on third base but sticks your chest out like you just hit a triple.

Originally posted by CodyChaos:

You are making obviously false and generalized statements about white people

Name the false statements!

Originally posted by CodyChaos:

you seem to be more concerned with getting your share of the pie than combating racism anyhow.

I am truly blessed. If god stopped blessing me today, I could not complain. I am concerned for those who don't have or will come along in a society that continues to shut doors on them instead of opening them. AA can not effectively combat racism, just ensure minimal opportunity.

Originally posted by CodyChaos:

Id really like to get you to change your perspective on the issue but its pretty frivolous through mediated communication. Its not that i care about getting the last word its just that ignorance bothers me and i try to rectify it on principle.

You are not interested in changing my perspective. You are interested in convincing me that everything is okay and that nothing else needs to be done and to continue to try is racism. I have been open here. I have repeatedly asked for suggestions. I have repeatedly inquired as to what you have done or would be willing to do. You offer nothing but the same old sh-t, that AA = racism. I have conceded AA has problems. Maybe we can help up the less fortunate another way but I have not heard it from you or anyone here for that matter. I don't know why it so hard to recognize a problem and discuss solutions to it. AA has been more of part of the solution than it has been part of the problem. If ignorance bothers you I suggest that you go and educate yourself on the insidiousness of discrimination and oppression of blacks in this country then maybe, just maybe, you won't be so apathetic towards the plight of black people in this country.



------------------
"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

Originally posted by Fordman50:
Hmmmmm, now me wonders why Cody was reading "The Rainbow Stories", a book with Powell street skin heads on the cover. How did you get drawn to that book Cody? Hmmmmm
http://discussanything.com/Ubb/wink.gif



Uh hum atleast I didnt used to room with Neo Nazis...



------------------
"He could not plead want of employment, nor incapacity of getting his bread in an honest way, but frankly own'd it was to get rid of the disagreeable superiority of some masters he was acquainted with and the love of novelty and change."

William Defoe on Bartholomew Roberts career of piracy

Originally posted by freedom:
White men control everything in this country and they are naturally looking out for their own and have been since they came here with their slaves in 1619.


Im a "white man" I dont control anything in this country. Ive never been offered any special favors for being white. I think you are attaching extra meaning to what I've been saying. I never said I dont think black persons shouldnt be given equal opportunities, I believe they are fully entitled to them. What I have been saying is that AA propagates racial criteria which makes racism an offically recognized policy again just as it used to be back in the Jim Crow days. I offered the ultimate solution to the problem and thats education. You decided that its waaaay too expensive to educate people however and nixed my suggestion. You support AA so let me ask this question of you, how does AA do anything to end racism? I cant figure how it does. Sure it helps blacks and other previously discriminated against minorities out. But how does it convince all those evil white people that their racism is unfounded and counter productive to society? I really dont think it does. As I mentioned earlier i think it just inflames their bigotry and is counter productive to eliminating racism.

From a personal stand point I dont care if AA exists or doesnt. I attend an outrageously expensive private school that is exempt from AA, but even then the school is only 50 something % white. I pay full tuition but I have both black and white friends who pay virtually nothing because all the assistance is need based. The school offers numerous scholarships specifically for women, black, hispanic, and asain students but none speciffically for white or male students. All of this without AA. I have NO problem with it however because all the scholarships and the need based finacial aid policy are the work of private individuals and institutions not the government. If private institutions want to offer increased opportunities to minorities thats fine by me. What i am arguing against is GOVERNMENT ENFORCED AA. I dont fear AA hindering my progress because I know my merit is far above the borderline where AA comes into play, I strive to defy any racial generalizations others seek to impose on me. I dont give a shiat about what people tell me is my "race" nor do I have pride in it. I have pride in my personal achievements, the fact that I keep an open mind, and my committment to the ideals of liberty from government and the sanctity of the individual. When the government seeks to define who and what I am through a program like AA then that is an affront to my beliefs.


------------------
"He could not plead want of employment, nor incapacity of getting his bread in an honest way, but frankly own'd it was to get rid of the disagreeable superiority of some masters he was acquainted with and the love of novelty and change."

William Defoe on Bartholomew Roberts career of piracy

[This message has been edited by CodyChaos (edited 06-26-2001).]

Hmmmmm, now me wonders why Cody was reading "The Rainbow Stories", a book with Powell street skin heads on the cover. How did you get drawn to that book Cody? Hmmmmm
http://discussanything.com/Ubb/wink.gif

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Winner of the "peoples Choice award" for supreme advocate for the people!

I'm not "always right", it just seems that way

Spelling is for kids! I think you got the point!

Could someone please put me in touch with the "White Men". Evidently, they lost my paperwork because I'm not in charge of anything yet . . . LOL!

Seriously, though, there IS a lot of prejudice going on in the workplace . . . in every camp. No one trusts anyone, and they're NOT going to start as long as there are people forcing us to. It's human nature to reject any type of forced change be it for our "own good" or not.

While there are LOTS of white double-standards, we don't have the patent. There is NO American Caucasian College Fund. It would last about 6 hours until a lawyer heard about it. There is no WHITE Miss America. There is no WHITE Entertainment Channel (well, maybe the Game Show channel, but that doesn't count). It's not that I want these things. It's just that these things would be impossible to have in today's society. It's like the old joke: What's the difference between a racist and a civil rights advocate? Skin color. THAT'S the perception many whites have.

I don't think a quota system of any type will work. You can't FORCE tolerance, acceptance, or morality. People will do what they want, and will almost always fight anything forced upon them.

Affirmative Action = discrimination, IMO

Originally posted by 92Notch:
Affirmative Action = discrimination, IMO
AA does discriminate but it discriminates to correct hundreds of years of systeminc discrimination and to afford opportuinities that said discrimination refused/refuses to offer.


------------------
"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

So it's okay to screw me because your great-great-whatever got screwed. Hmmmm . . . cool thought. So, if your father didn't finish his prison sentence, could we lock you up, please? Hey, it's only fair . . .

Originally posted by D Durden:
So it's okay to screw me because your great-great-whatever got screwed. Hmmmm . . . cool thought. So, if your father didn't finish his prison sentence, could we lock you up, please? Hey, it's only fair . . .

Thanks Dave..that is my point, I gave up my arguement pages ago..



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"The grand essentials to happiness in this life are something to do, something to love, and something to hope for"
-Joseph Addison

Originally posted by CodyChaos:
Im a "white man" I dont control anything in this country. Ive never been offered any special favors for being white. I think you are attaching extra meaning to what I've been saying.

Well you are not unlike many white men or white people in general that refuse to realize that there is privilege and advantage just to being born white. You may not personally control anything but the system is set up so that you may succeed the easiest if you just conform. Here is some evidence:
Thirty-four white
men. Those are the chairmen of the 34 standing committees in the new
107th Congress. In a country where women make up the majority of the
people, and where blacks and Latinos count for a quarter of the
population, white male political leadership is still shockingly and
anachronistically unrepresentative.

Of the 18 committee chairs in the House of Representatives, only two
were born in the last half century, half were born in the 1920s and 30s,
none are believed to be gay, all are Republicans, and all are white men.
It's not much different in the Senate. There are no Latinos, no gays and
no blacks in the entire U.S. Senate, a problem that became glaringly
apparent when the Congressional Black Caucus could not find a single
senator to support its opposition to Florida's electoral vote
certification last month. Eighty-eight of the 100 U.S. Senators are men.

Newsweek magazine reported in 1993 that white males make up just 39.2
percent of the population, "yet they account for 82.5 percent of the
Forbes 400 (folks worth at least $265 million), 77 percent of Congress,
92 percent of state governors, 70 percent of tenured college faculty,
almost 90 percent of daily newspaper editors, (and) 77 percent of TV
news directors." The sad news is that the numbers haven't changed much
since then.

When 39 percent of the population controls 70-90 percent of the power,
it's not because they're the only ones who can. It's because they set
the standards for what it takes to get power. Despite all the rhetoric
about "meritocracy," what we have here is nothing less than "affirmative
action" for white men.
Since the beginning of the republic, every president, every chief
justice, every speaker of the house has been white and male. Every
single one.

If white men are not in control, please tell me who is? This is what I was talking about when I talk about being born on third base but sticking out your chest like you just nailed a triple. I am not adding any extra meaning to what you are saying maybe you don't completely mean what you say or are not completely saying what you mean.

Originally posted by CodyChaos:

I never said I dont think black persons shouldnt be given equal opportunities, I believe they are fully entitled to them. What I have been saying is that AA propagates racial criteria which makes racism an offically recognized policy again just as it used to be back in the Jim Crow days.

That is a real stretch. As long as you insist that AA is racism when there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary, what am I really supposed to think you are meaning?

Originally posted by CodyChaos:

I offered the ultimate solution to the problem and thats education. You decided that its waaaay too expensive to educate people however and nixed my suggestion.

I did not nix your suggestion. I think your suggestion has merit. You have to be willing to admit that to implement effectively it would take money and a lot of it. All I was saying is that I find it hard to believe that opponents of AA would be willing to support the kind of money it would take. The private sector is not going to do it. I could be wrong.

Originally posted by CodyChaos:

You support AA so let me ask this question of you, how does AA do anything to end racism? I cant figure how it does. Sure it helps blacks and other previously discriminated against minorities out. But how does it convince all those evil white people that their racism is unfounded and counter productive to society? I really dont think it does. As I mentioned earlier i think it just inflames their bigotry and is counter productive to eliminating racism.

Eliminating racism is not the goal of AA. The elimination of racism is a pretty lofty goal in general. I think that if people are continued to be given opportunities and can prove they deserved the opportunities that minimally some of the ignorance concerning black people can get better. The narrowing of the gap concievably can be part of bringing people closer together. I will have to agree that AA inflames bigotry but I would argue that only happens to people that were bigots already or had predisposition to be bigots. I doubt that would be the affect on enlightened and empathetic people.

Originally posted by CodyChaos:

From a personal stand point I dont care if AA exists or doesnt. I attend an outrageously expensive private school that is exempt from AA, but even then the school is only 50 something % white. I pay full tuition but I have both black and white friends who pay virtually nothing because all the assistance is need based. The school offers numerous scholarships specifically for women, black, hispanic, and asain students but none speciffically for white or male students. All of this without AA. I have NO problem with it however because all the scholarships and the need based finacial aid policy are the work of private individuals and institutions not the government. If private institutions want to offer increased opportunities to minorities thats fine by me. What i am arguing against is GOVERNMENT ENFORCED AA. I dont fear AA hindering my progress because I know my merit is far above the borderline where AA comes into play, I strive to defy any racial generalizations others seek to impose on me. I dont give a shiat about what people tell me is my "race" nor do I have pride in it. I have pride in my personal achievements, the fact that I keep an open mind, and my committment to the ideals of liberty from government and the sanctity of the individual. When the government seeks to define who and what I am through a program like AA then that is an affront to my beliefs.

You don't care? I can't tell it. Do you know that there are private institutions that are being taken to cour for their AA policies. The govt. is not forcing them they want to but someone is crying "reverse discrimination" and now the govt. will be telling them they can not have AA. Are you against that? The govt. had to be the one to initially enforce AA. Do you really think that AA has nothing to do with the opportunity that your minority class mates are given? It may be need based but what groups are need the most? I support that they give opportunity to whites in need as well. I encourage you to continue to keep an open mind and I try to as well and again I concede AA has problems. I don't think it should be eradicated and if it is maybe something better and more effective can take its place.


------------------
"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

Originally posted by freedom:

AA does discriminate but it discriminates to correct hundreds of years of systeminc discrimination and to afford opportuinities that said discrimination refused/refuses to offer.




Not true IMO. Education and the realization that utilizing diversity in an organization is beneficial to everyone is "rectifying" the previous ignorance.
AA is a waste of taxpayer’s money ... and a waste of consumer’s money IMO



[This message has been edited by 92Notch (edited 06-27-2001).]

Originally posted by 92Notch:
[b]Education and the realization that utilizing diversity in an organization is beneficial to everyone is "rectifying" the previous ignorance.

That sure sounds pretty. I guess we should all wait for this to come to fruition.



------------------
"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

Originally posted by D Durden:
So it's okay to screw me because your great-great-whatever got screwed. Hmmmm . . . cool thought. So, if your father didn't finish his prison sentence, could we lock you up, please? Hey, it's only fair . . .

Focus Danielson!!


------------------
"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

[QUOTE]Originally posted by freedom:
[B] Eliminating racism is not the goal of AA. The elimination of racism is a pretty lofty goal in general. I think that if people are continued to be given opportunities and can prove they deserved the opportunities that minimally some of the ignorance concerning black people can get better. The narrowing of the gap concievably can be part of bringing people closer together. I will have to agree that AA inflames bigotry but I would argue that only happens to people that were bigots already or had predisposition to be bigots. I doubt that would be the affect on enlightened and empathetic people.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CodyChaos:
[b]

Well maybe we ought to be fighting racism then and not fussing over allocating resources to programs that are counter productive to the ultimate elimination of racism. AA supposedly exists to counter act prejudice and racism against certain groups, but in the mean time it just perpetuates the idea that there are differences between races. AA doesnt solve anything in the long run.


------------------
"He could not plead want of employment, nor incapacity of getting his bread in an honest way, but frankly own'd it was to get rid of the disagreeable superiority of some masters he was acquainted with and the love of novelty and change."

William Defoe on Bartholomew Roberts career of piracy

Originally posted by freedom:
"Well you are not unlike many white men or white people in general that refuse to realize that there is privilege and advantage just to being born white. You may not personally control anything but the system is set up so that you may succeed the easiest if you just conform. "


Dude, if you want to play the race game: Id have to say freedom that seeing as you have never been a "white" man in America you have no more place telling me what its like than I have telling you about the plight of the "black" man. Theres no conspiracy which i am priveledge to, and I make a point of working against "the system." Part of the way i do that is by rejecting ALL racial criteria, AA included. I recognize there is discrimination and that to you it may appear that some one like me is accorded some special status but im not, I think its more of a case of black persons being denied their rightfull respect.

------------------
"He could not plead want of employment, nor incapacity of getting his bread in an honest way, but frankly own'd it was to get rid of the disagreeable superiority of some masters he was acquainted with and the love of novelty and change."

William Defoe on Bartholomew Roberts career of piracy

This topic is lightning rod. Has everyone gotten their strikes in yet?

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Winner of the "peoples Choice award" for supreme advocate for the people!

I'm not "always right", it just seems that way

Spelling is for kids! I think you got the point!

Originally posted by CodyChaos:
Originally posted by freedom:
"Well you are not unlike many white men or white people in general that refuse to realize that there is privilege and advantage just to being born white. You may not personally control anything but the system is set up so that you may succeed the easiest if you just conform. "


Dude, if you want to play the race game: Id have to say freedom that seeing as you have never been a "white" man in America you have no more place telling me what its like than I have telling you about the plight of the "black" man. Theres no conspiracy which i am priveledge to, and I make a point of working against "the system." Part of the way i do that is by rejecting ALL racial criteria, AA included. I recognize there is discrimination and that to you it may appear that some one like me is accorded some special status but im not, I think its more of a case of black persons being denied their rightfull respect.



Well I have a unique perspective because my mother was white and came from upper middle class background until she was disowned by her family for falling in love with a black man and having a black child. I don't know exactly how it is to be white but I acknowledge that just being light skinned has afforded me privlege that my darker skinned brothers have been denied. I have an 82 year old neighbor that is very light skinned and she is a wealth of knowledge. She tells me about how it is a little easier if you are lighter...etc.. I know. Don't deny your privlege. There is nothing wrong with it, you had know choice in the race you were placed just as I had no choice in being a light skinned black. You ever see the movie School Daze a Spike Lee movie? It is an average movie but it does a pretty good job of showing some of the pettiness that goes on between light and dark skinned blacks. I can't believe that you would completely deny that there is any benifit to being born white in this country anyway.


------------------
"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

Okay, let's focus. You say that AA helps "correct" an injustice from 150 years ago. Um-kay . . . well, what about the injustices to "my people" before that? Oh, and my people still have debt with the Vikings (sorry 'bout that spear to the head, Erik) . . . oh, and the Romans owe us ALL a lot of money. LOL!

You can't defend the indefensable . . . and AA IS! What it mandates is that a certain number of a certain race MUST be hired for these x reasons. That's UTTERLY un-American. It takes away the need to try hard and excel because, eh, if you're up against the minority "flavor of the day", it doesn't matter, you're going to lose.

Plus, if I were a black person who had worked hard to get in an advantageous position, I'd be pretty insulted by AA because it implies that black people CAN'T make it without a handout. Plus, even if the black candidate IS the best for the job, the stigma of AA is going to follow them around, anyway.

It's just a bad deal any way you look at it.

Originally posted by D Durden:
Okay, let's focus. You say that AA helps "correct" an injustice from 150 years ago. Um-kay . . . well, what about the injustices to "my people" before that? Oh, and my people still have debt with the Vikings (sorry 'bout that spear to the head, Erik) . . . oh, and the Romans owe us ALL a lot of money. LOL!

You can't defend the indefensable . . . and AA IS! What it mandates is that a certain number of a certain race MUST be hired for these x reasons. That's UTTERLY un-American. It takes away the need to try hard and excel because, eh, if you're up against the minority "flavor of the day", it doesn't matter, you're going to lose.

Plus, if I were a black person who had worked hard to get in an advantageous position, I'd be pretty insulted by AA because it implies that black people CAN'T make it without a handout. Plus, even if the black candidate IS the best for the job, the stigma of AA is going to follow them around, anyway.

It's just a bad deal any way you look at it.


nice post.


There is a lot you cannot learn in school, things that can unfortunately only be learned from talking with elders who have experienced the history that our beloved school system neglects to teach. It’s not in American history (what some will call white history), and it’s not in world history, or any other “class” of history. My family came to this country several generations ago, most settled in PA and worked in the coal mines (white slaves). Working for the coal company was like being under a foreign dictatorship, terrible working conditions and many deaths. You got paid with the coal companies “money” witch was only good at their store. The store had only the bare necessities; you decided weather to get milk for the baby or bread for the rest of the family. ….Terrible stuff. If you tried to leave the “company”, or even talk about it you would most surly be the victim of a misfortunate “accident”. How about the indentured servants, people who paid for their trip to this wonderful country by working for their sponsor for 7 or more years, then receiving money and property from their sponsors upon completion of their “service”. Salves were mostly sold by the