Now if this isn't one of the big debates, I don't know what is. My take is this: It is hard to measure what exactly would be fair. Also how do you ask people that had nothing to do with it to pay for something that happened 150 years ago? I do feel that the majority of Americans are too quick to say that "forget the past, get over it, move forward". Things are not right and have never been right and I don't know if they can or ever will be right but I think we do need to take a serious look at the numbers and work on narrowing the diparities so this argument will not be needed. At the very least. I agree with the article on that point.

40 Acres and a Mule Plus Interest
Akilah Monifa, AlterNet
June 12, 2001

It's 2001 and we are still discussing the same thing we did in 1865 -- reparations for African Americans. Not that the discussion has been constant for the past 136 years. On the contrary, we spend most of our time refusing to discuss the issue.


In 1865, the original reparations package, the so-called "40 Acres and a Mule," was issued. Each black family was supposed to receive 40 acres and later was offered the loan of Army mules.


The same year, Congress established the Freedmen's Bureau, which was created to oversee the transition of slaves to freedom. The goal of the Freedmen's Bureau was to distribute 850,000 abandoned and confiscated acres of land to former slaves. But the distribution never happened. Former Confederates were allowed to reclaim the property.


In his book "Why We Can't Wait," Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. wrote about the issue of reparations for African Americans": [While] no amount of gold could provide adequate compensation for the exploitation of the Negro in American down through the centuries, a price could be placed on unpaid wages."


Since 1989, Rep. John Conyers Jr. (D-Mich) has introduced a bill every legislative session to establish a commission to examine slavery and its lingering effects on African Americans and contemporary U.S. society. The legislation would "acknowledge the fundamental injustice, cruelty, brutality, and inhumanity of slavery in the United States. And it would create a commission to study the impact of slavery and post-Civil War discrimination and recommend remedies." Conyers' immediate hope is simply to start the conversation by establishing a commission of historians, legal scholars, geneologists, economists and lawmakers. The commission would issue a report with recommendations to Congress.


Some of the key questions that the commission would raise include: (1) Should the U.S. government issue a formal apology for sanctioning slavery? And (2) Is a debt owed to the descendants of slaves who helped build the United States without compensation?


Randall Robinson has joined the fray with his book, "The Debt: What America Owes to Blacks" (Dutton, 200) Robinson writes: "No race, no ethnic or religious group, has suffered so much over so long a span as blacks have, and do still, at the hands of those who benefitted, with the connivance of the United States government, from slavery and the century of legalized American racial hostility that followed it. It is a miracle that the victims -- weary dark souls long shorn of a venerable and ancient identity -- have survived at all, stymied as they are by this blocked road to economic equality."


Robinson and others are prepared to fight the fight and begin the discussions about adequate reparations not only for slavery but for the racial discrimination that still exists today.


It is not about affirmative action (Robinson says that America owes us a fortune and "affirmative action is but a thin dime"). Robinson dismisses critics who say that we are too far removed for reparations. He knows of no statute of limitations and argues that the harm is ongoing.


And it is not about a mere payout, such as the one afforded to some Japanese Americans, 60,000 of whom received $20,000 each in 1988 for their internment during WWII as well as an apology from Congress.


The difficulty of offering reparations to African Americans is that the injuries began in 1865 and continue for many to this day. That's something that most folks don't want to admit, much less talk about.


Robinson, Johnnie Cochran, the NAACP, and the National Bar Association (an association of lawyers of African descent) are crafting legal arguments for a restitution claim against state and federal governments for "the derivative victims of slavery and the racial abuse that followed in its wake."


The harms did not end with slavery. Despite the gains of a few, African Americans are not playing on a level playing field, especially when you look at statistics on poverty levels, education, employment, and health.


Robinson and others argue that we cannot heal the wounds of racial differences until we minimally acknowledge what has happened in the past and come to terms with that.


This is no small task. It is not as simple as apologizing and/or repaying economic debts. That's why a commission such as the one Conyers suggests must be enacted. Former President Clinton's Commission on Race did not begin to scratch the surface.


The Reparations movement is gaining momentum. There is a California law which requires insurance companies not only to research its past business and those of its predecessor companies, but to report to the state whether it ever sold policies insuring slave owners against the loss of their slave property, and if so to whom. The Oklahoma Commission to Study the Race Riots of 1921 recommended reparations for survivors and their descendants. Aetna Insurance apologized for having written insurance policies for slave owners on the lives of their slaves. The Hartford Courant apologized for having run advertisements for the sale and capture of slaves. The Philadelphia Inquirer ran two full page editorials calling for a national reparations commission.


Yes, this is a painful subject -- as are discussions about the Nazi Holocaust and the treatment of Native Americans. But if we are truly in denial of the past, then we are condemned to repeat it. So, as painful as it will be, if there is any hope for healing the racial divides, we must first talk fully and openly about the past


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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.

I got your mule! Most all of my family came over to the U.S. on the third great wave of imigration at least 50 years after slavery. Many of them were Irish and were treated very poorly as such. They were kept from have high paying jobs or live in certain areas or pulic office. Do you think they/I should get a government check too? Do you think its fair that the sons of such imigrants pay for the policies of the first wave of imigration who directly bennifitted from slave labor 200 years ago? Qustions like these are why it will NEVER happen. Black folks can wish it all they want, but its a fairy tale. I have even heard that welfare already IS a valid form of reparation and that depts should ALREADY be settled up and the program ended soon.

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Winner of the "peoples Choice award" for supreme advocate for the people!

I'm not "always right", it just seems that way

Spelling is for kids! I think you got the point!

Originally posted by Fordman50:
I got your mule! Most all of my family came over to the U.S. on the third great wave of imigration at least 50 years after slavery. Many of them were Irish and were treated very poorly as such. They were kept from have high paying jobs or live in certain areas or pulic office. Do you think they/I should get a government check too? Do you think its fair that the sons of such imigrants pay for the policies of the first wave of imigration who directly bennifitted from slave labor 200 years ago? Qustions like these are why it will NEVER happen. Black folks can wish it all they want, but its a fairy tale. I have even heard that welfare already IS a valid form of reparation and that depts should ALREADY be settled up and the program ended soon.



I agree that reperations are unlikely and for the most part not feasable however your argument is not good. European immigrants that came to this country by choice not force and most always worked for money while sharecropping was nothing more than legal slavery. There is no way you should attempt to compare the two. Also because Europeans had a sense of who they were and had not been torn apart as a people for 200 years of slavery, torture, and psychological oppression that continued. Then after 25 years or so the same imigrants that you speak of went on to control police forces and political machines that continued to oppress a group of people that had been brought here by force what at least 150 years earlier? So no I do not think European immigrants have any reason what so ever to even consider recieving reperations. And under a totally different argumet, I probably could argue that those immigrants benifited from the oppression of black people that was perpetuated generation after generation. The other thing is you say "blacks can wish all they want". The sad thing is the blacks that need uplifting and help the most are not even concerned with reperations. They just continue to be caught in the vicious cycle of poverty, sub-standard education, drugs, violence.... Now as far as welfare goes. You have to be smarter than that. That is such a ridiculous statement it almost does not deserve reply. Pick up a history book and learn why welfare came to be and who it benifited most. Welfare as we know it now and what it turned into is arguably more a form of oppression than help and could never be considered any kind of reparation. Did you even read the entire article before you posted that weak arse reply? I think it was made clear the goal is to discuss reparations but in order to do so it would first have to be admited that anything wrong ever happened or is still happening.

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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.

[This message has been edited by freedom (edited 06-18-2001).]

I think your missing the point freedom... if someones father was a nazi should they give their life savings to help the Jewish?

Yeah the blacks got screwed over...a lot of people did INCLUDING the Irish who came to this country maybe not as bad... but who are we to judge that? I certainly can't tell you which group in the past we owe more... rather than worry about the sins of our fathers why not take care of just getting our **** together right here and now in the preasent?

thats my opinion anyways

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"Who wants some? Huh? Who wants a little?"
-TOAO Ash

" I think your missing the point freedom... if someones father was a nazi should they give their life savings to help the Jewish?
Yeah the blacks got screwed over...a lot of people did INCLUDING the Irish who came to this country maybe not as bad... but who are we to judge that? I certainly can't tell you which group in the past we owe more... rather than worry about the sins of our fathers why not take care of just getting our **** together right here and now in the preasent?"


I don't think that I am missing the point at all. And yes, survivors of the Jewish Holocaust are still recieving reparations some times from the sons/family of Nazi party members. The Swedish banking system is giving money back that was allegedelly stolen by Nazis and deposited in their banks. Indigenous people of America are given sovereignty over certain land and allowed to open up casinos that make truck loads of cash. That is definitely a form of reparation. The article talks about reparations made to Japanese. Reparations have been made to many people years after the fact, that is not unusual and I never heard many if any people crying about how wrong it was but even mention "discussing" reparations to decendents of slaves, and you get this huge opposition and the "just get over it" mentatlity. As far as us getting our sh-t together right now in the present, I totally agree. The question is how/what do we do? Can't we even "discuss" the wrongs of the past and the present and address legitimate remedies that are bound to cost money. To do that in a way is to discuss reparations. I am not really for giving money to people to do whatever they want with based on the wrongs of the past. I am not for that kind of reparation and I am sure that will never happen. I just think that black people have been sh-t on for so long that this country does need to do something about the problems. It has only been about 30 years since the Civil Rights Act was signed. Prior to that blacks were openly and legally oprresed and could not even vote in the south. The playing field whas made so uneven over 300 years of slavery and oppression that it is ridiculous to think that 30 some years after the civil rights movement that every thing is just fine and if "they would go and work just like me they would be alright...." That is a lot of sh-t.If you would like I can show you some figures and statistics that show just how uneven the playing field is. Descendants of those who made the playing field uneven benifit so why not contribute to helping make things better, not right because I don't think things could ever be right. I don't see how we could go wrong by doing so.


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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.

Never owned a slave. Never knew a slave. Be damned if I'll ever pay money back for something that happened over 100 years before I was born. Want reparations? Go find the descendants of the African people who sold the slaves in the first place.

I read where some group was going after insurance companies who were in existance then and had policies on slaves. Gimme a break. All of this energy would be better served in trying to find a solutions to todays issues. Not yesterdays.

However, it is of utmost importance to not forget the past, and to learn from its mistakes.

"Any culture that tries to erase it's past, cannot have a future."

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Uh, what country is this??

Freedom, I know you dont agree with a lot of these people often, but I think they have a good point. I guess it can be easy to say to "get over it" if your not the injured party though. But then it can be argued that the ultimate "injured party" (slaves and sons of) are already dead.

I think that what people are trying to say here is that continued talk of reparations to us crackers only serves to separate not unite us. I think its true myself. If the militants and Sharptons of the world dont understand that point, then they will not serve their followers well at all.

I thhink its important that both sides understand eachothers real motivations and positions on issues such as this. As it is, we do not (as a rule) and the issues and mouth peices for them only become lightening rods.

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Winner of the "peoples Choice award" for supreme advocate for the people!

I'm not "always right", it just seems that way

Spelling is for kids! I think you got the point!

[This message has been edited by Fordman50 (edited 06-19-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Fordman50 (edited 06-20-2001).]

Mav you kind of contradict yourself and FM50 "the ultimate injured party" really is ALL of us. The plight of blacks in America today is a f-cking time bomb. Why do you think the govt. chooses to incarcerate and put to death blacks on such dipraportionate number? It is easier than working on the problem and spending money working on the problem. Because it is not popular among the masses of white people or people that think like Mav. Which brings me to this, Mav your tax dollars are spent on the most sick and ridiculous sh-t that you could ever imagine. You tax dollars are spent on sh-t that will never make your life in this country any better so why be against your tax dollars going towards something that can improve the lives of us all. You said "All of this energy would be better served in trying to find a solutions to todays issues. Not yesterdays.
However, it is of utmost importance to not forget the past, and to learn from its mistakes." Isn't that kind of a contradiction of terms.
Locking up those "criminal, wanting something for nothing, drug selling, out of wedlock children having, welfare recieving blacks is popular among the masses vs. the idea that we might begin to discuss the role that slavery and oppression played in the plight of masses of blacks today and working on something that might reverse or change the horrible delima.

I don't think it is fair to really take people like Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton, Louis Farrakan... and assume that they are black leaders. They get the most media coverage but I don't think young blacks are in tune with their agenda. Black youth are lost and not really relating to what any one person is saying. They have been snubbed by rep.s and abandoned by dem.'s. And Please don't come back with a few success stories because we know they are out there and just because they are out there does not dispell anything. Just like referring to the tired old take that Africans sold Africans so they are really to blame (when if you know history, you know that once Africans became fully aware of the kind of slavery they were selling people into most all stopped)does not even come close to justifying the institution of slavery and the years of oppression that followed it in this great country.


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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.

Originally posted by Fordman50:
Freedom, I know you dont agree with a lot of these people often, but I think they have a good point. I guess it can be easy to say to "get over it" if your not the injured party though. But then it can be argued that the ultimate "injured party" (slaves and sons of) are already dead.

I think that what people are trying to say here is that continued talk of reparations to us crackers only serves to separate and unite us. I think its true myself. If the militants and Sharptons of the world dont understand that point, then they will not serve their followers well at all.

I thhink its important that both sides understand eachothers real motivations and positions on issues such as this. As it is, we do not (as a rule) and the issues and mouth peices for them only become lightening rods.




Preach on brother...

Anyways we have made SOME reparations for them though with things like "Equal Opportunity Employment" and "Affirmitive Action" sure they werent great...but they were a start...speaking of which... time to go make a new thread.


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"Who wants some? Huh? Who wants a little?"
-TOAO Ash

No contradiction in terms at all. If the past is forgotten, you cannot learn from the mistake that have been made. Kinda like the saying 'cherish where you are now, just don't forget where you came from.'



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Uh, what country is this??

I agree that we should remember where we came from but to relive this mess day after day and to not let it go. I cant agree. For example, my great-grandfather owned many slaves. It makes me sick to think of it. It was my heritage though. I much prefer to forget about it. Mistakes were made, lessons were learned. Now why can't we all just get along?

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"The grand essentials to happiness in this life are something to do, something to love, and something to hope for"
-Joseph Addison

Originally posted by Princess:
I agree that we should remember where we came from but to relive this mess day after day and to not let it go. I cant agree. For example, my great-grandfather owned many slaves. It makes me sick to think of it. It was my heritage though. I much prefer to forget about it. Mistakes were made, lessons were learned. Now why can't we all just get along?



You're funny Princess King. If you sweep dirt under a rug and just forget about it, isn't it always still there? And lessons learned is arguable.


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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.

This is an interesting take by an African American woman.

I really didn't want to wade into the whole reparations argument, but recent events have made me change my mind. By now, you've probably seen on the news or read about the big fuss that went on at several college campuses over an anti-reparations ad placed in college newspapers by author and commentator David Horowitz. Personally I believe in free speech. Mr. Horowitz is a jerk who seems to have an unhealthy obsession with Black people but as long as this is America, he has the right to say whatever he wants. Rioting on campus, stealing newspapers and threatening people over an advertisement in the school newspaper just plays right into his hands. I get the sense that he's enjoying the spectacle that his ad has caused.

As for the subject of reparations itself, both sides have some valid arguments. White people made a profit off of my ancestor's sufferings. So did West Africans, and probably so did some Arabs. Should I, a free-born, educated young woman, born more than 100 years after the end of slavery, make a buck off of my ancestors too? Frankly, that makes me feel a little bit uncomfortable.

Was Black America financially harmed by slavery? Obviously, the answer is yes. Last year I attended an office party held at the ancestral home of a white company executive. The house is really a mansion and it's been in her family for close to 200 years. Slaves built that estate. Slaves worked that land and slaves reaped no economic benefit from her family's success. Heck, the slaves — and later, the sharecroppers — made her family's money.

For most of the 400 years Black folks have been in America, 95% of us had no chance to build fortunes of our own. One reason why people like Madame CJ Walker, Maggie Lena Walker (no relation) and S. B. Fuller were so amazing is because they became wealthy in a time when it was still impossible for most Black people. It has only been in the last 30 years that Black people have been able to compete for the jobs we want, go to the schools we want and live in the nicer neighborhoods if we want.

Having said that, I still feel reluctant to take money for something I don't deserve. I've never been a slave, and never met a slave. The oldest relative that I can remember was born in 1878, some eleven years after slavery ended, and died when I was four. Can I really, in good conscience take money that was owed to Lyles, Lindsays and Jeters long dead and buried? Besides, I've seen photographs and read the stories and written about modern-day slaves in Africa. Nothing in my life compares to what they endure. The experience of a Sudanese slave or a slave from Mali is almost indescribable. When I look at these poor people I can't even think of comparing myself to them. My ancestors didn't want to be on the slave block and I would be ashamed to climb up on it now to get a pay out.

I propose another kind of reparations. Any Black person alive today who's over the age of 40 has experienced segregation. Living under Jim Crow was a dangerous and sometimes soul-crushing business. My mother never brings it up. Most of my relatives either find it too painful or too infuriating to discuss race relations before 1968.

One story that has stayed with me ever since I heard it comes from my father-in-law. In 1963, he and my mother-in-law stopped at a gas station in Florida. He was a decorated Air Force officer, and was wearing his uniform. My mother-in-law was pregnant and showing. Although the manager had no problem taking their money for the gasoline, he refused to let her use the bathroom. She was forced — this elegant, sophisticated woman whose husband was serving his ungrateful nation — to relieve herself in a filthy ditch behind the station like some soulless animal.

My father-in-law burns up when he tells that story. My mother-in-law usually has to leave the room. While white Americans bragged to the rest of the world that this country was the home of the free and the land of the brave, Blacks couldn't even use the public facilities their taxes paid for and risked lynching if they protested. How about compensating these folks? They're still alive, still active and remember it all very well. Sure, those of us who are 35 and under won't receive a dime but that's okay with me. I don't have any claim on the Jim Crow experience and I'm glad of it.

It's too late to do right by the slaves — we'll have to wait for Judgment Day for that — but its not too late for this country to do right by our parents, grandparents and surviving great-grandparents. Let's work for that.

First published: June 19, 2001

By Kimberley Lindsay Wilson


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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.

My dad moved here when he was 22. He had 7 dollars, and a job that padi room/board and tuition for his masters degree.

Our country has a horrible past. It is SO important to be aware of it, but him, me, others paying tax money to people that weren't held in slavery, but who's ancestors weren't?

Should I get money cause Britain controlled india once, and forced them to start cultural changes? Should I be able to sue England for that? I lost my culture!

No. I shouldn't. We should all be aware of the past, we shoudl all try to work out our differences, but PAYING reparations to DESCENDENTS of those enslaved doens't accomplish anything that will unite us.

A difference between the Japanese situation and the african american one, the Japanese people that were paid LIVED through the itnernemnt camps, it was not paid to descendents. Also, that was something we did 'illegally.' Sure slavery is highly immoral and unehtical, but it was 'legal' at the time.

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Manu Narayan

Originally posted by freedom:
You're funny Princess King. If you sweep dirt under a rug and just forget about it, isn't it always still there? And lessons learned is arguable.





Um Princess King?? WTF??? Enlighten me..


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"The grand essentials to happiness in this life are something to do, something to love, and something to hope for"
-Joseph Addison

Hey freedom, how about this one: the Tuskeegee (sp?) Airmen. The most successful bomber escort wing in WWII. Never lost a bomber unsder thier escort. Only airmen were shot down. Most of them did not even get recognized for thier contribution to the country until after 1993. These guys were sons and grandsons of slaves.

The letter you posted made me remember this...

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Uh, what country is this??

Originally posted by 74Mav:
Hey freedom, how about this one: the Tuskeegee (sp?) Airmen. The most successful bomber escort wing in WWII. Never lost a bomber unsder thier escort. Only airmen were shot down. Most of them did not even get recognized for thier contribution to the country until after 1993. These guys were sons and grandsons of slaves.

The letter you posted made me remember this...



I'm not sure what you are asking or where you are going with that. Blacks returning from serving this country in WWII were treated just as poorly as they were before they left especially in the south. I rememer a seen in the Tuskegee Airmen movie when the black airmen had to move to a lesser train car to accomodate white P.O.W.'s. Might have been Hollywood BS but it was a good depiction of how blacks were treated regardless of the sacrifices they made for this country. So, what about them?

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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.

Originally posted by Manu:
My dad moved here when he was 22. He had 7 dollars, and a job that padi room/board and tuition for his masters degree.

Our country has a horrible past. It is SO important to be aware of it, but him, me, others paying tax money to people that weren't held in slavery, but who's ancestors weren't?

Should I get money cause Britain controlled india once, and forced them to start cultural changes? Should I be able to sue England for that? I lost my culture!

No. I shouldn't. We should all be aware of the past, we shoudl all try to work out our differences, but PAYING reparations to DESCENDENTS of those enslaved doens't accomplish anything that will unite us.

A difference between the Japanese situation and the african american one, the Japanese people that were paid LIVED through the itnernemnt camps, it was not paid to descendents. Also, that was something we did 'illegally.' Sure slavery is highly immoral and unehtical, but it was 'legal' at the time.



Well the thing is I struggle with the thought of a pay out and have said so in previous post. The argument that is made by proponents of reparations is that the harm is ongoing and has never been adequately addressed. Do you think the freed slaves should have been afforded opportunity? I am not in total agreement for reparations by any means. I just think it is worth talking about and by talking about it maybe people can see clear to get behind working on what really matters and that is what is still going on today.



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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.

Originally posted by freedom:
I'm not sure what you are asking or where you are going with that. Blacks returning from serving this country in WWII were treated just as poorly as they were before they left especially in the south. I rememer a seen in the Tuskegee Airmen movie when the black airmen had to move to a lesser train car to accomodate white P.O.W.'s. Might have been Hollywood BS but it was a good depiction of how blacks were treated regardless of the sacrifices they made for this country. So, what about them?



That is exactly the poin I was going after. They served thier country just as any white man did. They performed thier task BETTER than the white squadrons did. And they were treated to far less than the heroes welcome they deserved. Many were subjected to medical exams to see if flying airplanes caused 'brain shrinkage' to the decreased oxygen and stresses related to flight. And none got the recognition they deserved until decades after. The HBO special was not Hollywood B.S. It was actually a documentary performed by well known actors. Cuba Gooding, Jr, Laurence Fishbourne to name a few. It is just an underscore to what you are talking about.

Yes, there are problems even today. Your article you posted on Juneteenth is not exactly history class material, though probably should be.



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Uh, what country is this??

Originally posted by Princess:

Um Princess King?? WTF??? Enlighten me..




Knowing Freedom as I do, I think that he feels that you have indirectly benifitted finacially from slavery (weather you know it or not) and it bothers him a lot. So he made an angry remark out of frustration. Dont take it personally. I know its not your fault what family you were born into but some people may like to here, "I will give my college money and any inheritance to you, poor thing. Im so sorry" and nothing more would satisfy. May an apology would be a good start, I dunno. I used to be VERY angry and jelous of people who had it better than me (which was just about everyone) however, I never had the luxury of justifying my rage or disapointments by grounding them history. I can relate to freedoms pain and understand his feelings BUT he IS barking up the wrong tree for personal success and happieness with inner peace.

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Winner of the "peoples Choice award" for supreme advocate for the people!

I'm not "always right", it just seems that way

Spelling is for kids! I think you got the point!

[This message has been edited by Fordman50 (edited 06-20-2001).]

I am not one for self-pity. I work for everything I have.. The silver spoon was never shoved into my mouth. So, I do not feel that I should have to apologize for what ppl did many years back..This is 2001, GET OVER IT!

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"The grand essentials to happiness in this life are something to do, something to love, and something to hope for"
-Joseph Addison

Originally posted by Fordman50:
Knowing Freedom as I do, I think that he feels that you have indirectly benifitted finacially from slavery (weather you know it or not) and it bothers him a lot. So he made an angry remark out of frustration. Dont take it personally. I know its not your fault what family you were born into but some people may like to here, "I will give my college money and any inheritance to you, poor thing. Im so sorry" and nothing more would satisfy. May an apology would be a good start, I dunno. I used to be VERY angry and jelous of people who had it better than me (which was just about everyone) however, I never had the luxury of justifying my rage or disapointments by grounding them history. I can relate to freedoms pain and understand his feelings BUT he IS barking up the wrong tree for personal success and happieness with inner peace.



Try not to think for other people FM50. You have enough problems thinking for yourself and not being influenced by your new moneyed co-workers, neighbors, and fast car enthusiast. I'm cool with my personal success and I have more peace now than I have had in years. Yes it is frustrating to have to work 10x as hard and always be under greater scrutiny for every little thing. It is frustrating not EVER reaping any benifits of the good ole boy, it's not what you know but who you know, system even though I have white friends entrenched in the system. But still I don't just argue for me. I truly would like to see a better status for blacks today. It hurts like hell to witnees the cycle of poverty, violence, drugs, incarceration and death that many blacks are caught up in. Nobody cares about black people not even black people so it hurts. I know that the way this country has treated blacks is largely responsible for the plight of blacks. I also know that blacks have to be willing to do something for themselves to change as well. It is not that easy however when the boot is still on your throat and nobody really cares. I don't often feel envious but sometimes resentfull. I don't resent the rich for being rich. I resent rich that are rich and selfish and arogant and uncaring....which seems to be a lot of them. Even blacks after obtaining wealth/success fall into that same sh-t. I actually support people that are trying to do something for themselves. My wife and I have paid the rent of a recovering addict at least 3x this year because we see she is trying we also give her work and pay her to do stuff that we can do ourself and we are not anywhere close to being rich. That is but one example of many things we do because we care about people not fast cars, our money, our money, our money,... We would like to pull people up not keep people down by saying "I got mine, you get yours". I'm so sick of that sh-t. The "Princess King" thing was just a play on Rodney King who also said, "Can't we all just get along". A quote that has been used in satire ever since it was made. Sorry if that one went over your heads.



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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.

Originally posted by Princess:
I am not one for self-pity. I work for everything I have.. The silver spoon was never shoved into my mouth. So, I do not feel that I should have to apologize for what ppl did many years back..This is 2001, GET OVER IT!



Yeah, I'm sure you have never caught a break.... Even if that were true that should make you more sympathetic to how hard it is for some to succeed. Maybe you would offer something positive to help, instead you just say GET OVER IT. That is part of the problem. I never asked you or anyone to apologize for anything. I could give a f-ck about anyones apologies. It would be enough for me if people just recognized the significance of how what was done in the past effects many today and just choose not only to not be a part of the continuing of the cycle but denounce the cycle and do anything to see that it not continue. That would be far better than any apology. You may already do little things that help and you don't even realize it, maybe you don't but if you do try to be consciuos of those things and maybe do whatever else you can.


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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.

Freedom:

I do know how hard it is to succeed. That is the point, I work to succeed, no one gives me breaks..So dont assume I get them.

My question is, How has the past affected you? I would like to know what has angered you so much that you feel the need to belittle others for not sympathizing and trying to help. Perhaps I am naive, and you should spread some light. I have many African American friends, many I work with on a day to day basis. I have never caught this type of attitude from them. So, why do you have all the anomosity?

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"The grand essentials to happiness in this life are something to do, something to love, and something to hope for"
-Joseph Addison

I think I know EXACTLY what you mean Freedom. ACKNOWLEGEMENT is important. I used to (and still do sometimes) think that if ONLY people would admit or acknowlege/concede little things/injustices, I would sleep better at night. It IS frustrating when you feel disatvantaged for ANY reason, and the insult is COMPOUNDED when those whom you condsider to be atvantaged, can NOT understand your feeling and refuse to concede to position at all.

Understaning and empathy is important for closure. We all have some ax to gind. Understanding is NOT achieved with insults stereo types (although tempting) or angry words on either side of the issues.

This holds true for most conflicts

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Winner of the "peoples Choice award" for supreme advocate for the people!

I'm not "always right", it just seems that way

Spelling is for kids! I think you got the point!

[This message has been edited by Fordman50 (edited 06-20-2001).]

Originally posted by Princess:
Freedom:

I do know how hard it is to succeed. That is the point, I work to succeed, no one gives me breaks..So dont assume I get them.

My question is, How has the past affected you? I would like to know what has angered you so much that you feel the need to belittle others for not sympathizing and trying to help. Perhaps I am naive, and you should spread some light. I have many African American friends, many I work with on a day to day basis. I have never caught this type of attitude from them. So, why do you have all the anomosity?



Okay since you opened it up and went there. I can tell you how the past has affected me. Distant past and recent past. My mother and I were run of the road by rednecks in the early 70's. My mother and I were chased by rednecks as they threatened to kill the "little ******" and the "****** lover". We were either refused service or treated horribly to many times to mention. As a black youth working at McD's and walking home after closing the place I was stopped and harrased by the cops 2 or 3x a week until I started documenting the stops and taking badge numbers and names. I have trained white men to be my supervisor. Meaning they came in not knowing sh-t yet instead of me getting the opportunity they hire a white male and make me train him to be my supervisor that was not that long ago. How is this related to the past? Read Dr. Kings quote below. It is not down there for nothing! I don't know what I have said to belittle anyone. Believe me I don't have that kind of power unless people choose to give it to me.

an·i·mos·i·ty (n-ms-t)
n. pl. an·i·mos·i·ties
Bitter hostility or open enmity; active hatred.
A hostile feeling or act. See Synonyms at enmity.

I don't think that defines my feelings at all. I am just very passionate about the injustices that I/black people have experienced and are still experiencing. I don't sugar coat anything when it comes to this subject. Take it however you want. You are correct however in recognizing that there are not many blacks as vocal in most settings. Blacks on the job almost never discuss anything like this except with other blacks for fear of making waves or being percieved as a trouble maker. But in general I am more passionate and vocal than most and sometimes I feel very alone in that but I know that I am not completely alone and also know that there are some whites that recognize and feel similarly but they are few and far between.



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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.

Freedom:

Thank you for enlightening me. I REALIZE that life is not fair for the minorities. I am just uncertain of what I can do to help other than to realize it is a problem, and recognize it in my own life to ensure that do not treat anyone indifferently. I realize that you feel very strongly on this matter, I have a few of my own that i am passionate about myself. I also realize though that it is almost impossible to argue a point over the internet. Things are misinterpreted and so forth. I appreciate you taking the time to explain things to me. I can see a clearer view of where your thoughts/feelings are coming from.

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"The grand essentials to happiness in this life are something to do, something to love, and something to hope for"
-Joseph Addison

Originally posted by Princess:
Freedom:

Thank you for enlightening me. I REALIZE that life is not fair for the minorities. I am just uncertain of what I can do to help other than to realize it is a problem, and recognize it in my own life to ensure that do not treat anyone indifferently. I realize that you feel very strongly on this matter, I have a few of my own that i am passionate about myself. I also realize though that it is almost impossible to argue a point over the internet. Things are misinterpreted and so forth. I appreciate you taking the time to explain things to me. I can see a clearer view of where your thoughts/feelings are coming from.



Being concious and empathetic is over half the battle. Anyone that remains open is probably a part of the solution.



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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.

You just reminded me of something. I HATE THE TERM "Compassionate Conservative" Its an oximoron. This has nothing to do with anyone here BTW.

empathy is a good thing too

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Winner of the "peoples Choice award" for supreme advocate for the people!

I'm not "always right", it just seems that way

Spelling is for kids! I think you got the point!

Compassionate Conservative... <--- I was always a odd one http://discussanything.com/Ubb/smile.gif

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"The grand essentials to happiness in this life are something to do, something to love, and something to hope for"
-Joseph Addison

I think in time you will find I am a very open and compassionate person. I just like things to be explained in detail. I like the whole picture. Also, You have taught me something today. I will therefore take more time to be open to things and analyze them to be a better person in society..

btw, I agree to disagree http://discussanything.com/Ubb/wink.gif

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"The grand essentials to happiness in this life are something to do, something to love, and something to hope for"
-Joseph Addison

Freedom... Please don't take this the wrong way. However, I can't help get the feeling after reading this thread that maybe there is a personal issue of forgiveness involved as well. Going through life remembering every little hurt is only going to make you a very bitter and miserable old man. I think it would be a shame too, as I think you have alot to offer the world otherwise.

I am the victim of two armed robberies... both times by young black men. Ever have a knife at your throat, wondering if you were going to live or die? Do I use this as an excuse to hate all black people? Absolutely not. I don't even hold a grudge against the robbers. I figure one way or another we all ultimately have to stand tall for our deeds in life.

You're right, there may never be a resolution between blacks and whites. The thing is, how far are *you* willing to go to carry on a grudge?

Look at the Arabs and Jews. That hatred has gone back over 5000 years, and that all started when Jacob managed to get the birthright that Esau was supposed to be entitled to. There never has been any peace, and things are so bad now that they make the L.A. gangs look like Disneyland actors. It's not a matter of if, but when we have another major war over there.

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Artist formerly known as Reindeer

[This message has been edited by Turbostang (edited 06-24-2001).]

Why is it that if someone feels passionate about something others will think it is about animosity and ill will? I don't have any grudges. I am interested in helping to change the plight of black people today not only because of what happened that contributed to their plight but because of the ongoing apathy towards this beautiful group of lost people. It hurts to see where many blacks are today. I hate that we as a people don't seeem to have it within ourselves to make changes and corrections without the help or intervention from anyone. Some do but they are the few. Where would we be in the Jim Crow south without the help and support of the entire nation during the Civil Rights movement? Help is still needed. The plight of black people is serious. I fear what will become of black people with no help and continued apathy. I wish people would quit bringing the whole world and every oppressed people throughout history. We are talking about this country and right now. I have concern for many other oppresed groups in this country and abroad but I am more passionate about the plight of the people I identify with closely. Also, the situation with black people and this country is unique so all kinds of comparisons and parallels really don't work well. It is good that you don't hold a grudge. Why would you hold a grudge against an entire people because of what two individuals did. Yes, I have been the victim of horrific violence sometimes at the hands of white people trying to kill my mother and I because I was black and she was white. You want to talk about fear and humiliation? This country need to continue to try and work to make things better and help change the plight of black people. Why? Because we can! We are the richest most powerful country in the world. We can do something. We have in the past and we should continue to do so.

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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

I think Turbo was on the money. You may actually be interested in civil justice. but I know your angry and frustrated. I know a little about that myself. From what I read, Turbo has done his time with anger, frustration, bitterness and disapointment. You cant bullsh!t and Bullshi!tter, we can see through that.

You've heard me say it before, anger, hate, and resentment are extreamly negative emotions. They will only hurt you and make you an unhappy person. The sooner you learn to forgive and pitty those who truely wrong you, the happier you will be

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Winner of the "peoples Choice award" for supreme advocate for the people!

I'm not "always right", it just seems that way

Spelling is for kids! I think you got the point!

Well, as long as you and turbo think you know every f-cking thing I will feel much better. Please, I invite you to keep on thinking that way.
I never said that I wasn't angry or frustrated. Anger and frustration are not necessarily unhealthy emotions. You two for whatever reason have decided that I am so totally consumed with anger and animosity that I am doing myself more harm than good. This despite my very clear expressions to the contrary. Well think whatever you want. I look at my anger as being a gift. Far better than the apathy that so many others choose to embrace.

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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

Alright guys...Calm down..We are not always going to see eye to eye..No sense in getting vicious about it..

~Heather

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"The grand essentials to happiness in this life are something to do, something to love, and something to hope for"
-Joseph Addison

Originally posted by freedom:
Anger and frustration are not necessarily unhealthy emotions........ I look at my anger as being a gift. Far better than the apathy that so many others choose to embrace.



I think you know that I STRONGLY disagree with these statements. Anger is a cancer NOT a gift. Anger often equate with hate, which is a sin. Anger is stress and stress is proven to slowiy kill you. Anger is a waste of time and not fun to be around. Anger is poisonous!

"Anger is a gift"? LOL Only in bizaro world. Anger is the COMPLETE opposite of forgiveness. Forgiveness is the greatest gift given to us by Jesus. You dont have to be a Christian to understand why forgiveness is the foundation of most of the worlds biggest religions. Its because anchient peoples relized that anger leads to hate, war, a sick heart, mind and soul. Anger is a product of forces of evil (the devil if you will)

At this point I am not addressing the topic at hand, only your twisted views on anger and sickness it can cause you. Your justifican of anger is a frivilous arguement. Until you are willing to admit the chronic anger is negative, and a sickness, your odjective in life, will never be forefilled. I hope that you become enlightened on the matter soon. I hope that you too will completely grasp the POWER of unconditional forgiveness! Its miraculous it its ability to heal the sick heart and bring the mind to a higher state of peacefulness than you have ever imagined. Forgiveness takes practice, start today.

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Winner of the "peoples Choice award" for supreme advocate for the people!

I'm not "always right", it just seems that way

Spelling is for kids! I think you got the point!

Originally posted by Fordman50:
I think you know that I STRONGLY disagree with these statements. Anger is a cancer NOT a gift. Anger often equate with hate, which is a sin. Anger is stress and stress is proven to slowiy kill you. Anger is a waste of time and not fun to be around. Anger is poisonous!

"Anger is a gift"? LOL Only in bizaro world. Anger is the COMPLETE opposite of forgiveness. Forgiveness is the greatest gift given to us by Jesus. You dont have to be a Christian to understand why forgiveness is the foundation of most of the worlds biggest religions. Its because anchient peoples relized that anger leads to hate, war, a sick heart, mind and soul. Anger is a product of forces of evil (the devil if you will)

At this point I am not addressing the topic at hand, only your twisted views on anger and sickness it can cause you. Your justifican of anger is a frivilous arguement. Until you are willing to admit the chronic anger is negative, and a sickness, your odjective in life, will never be forefilled. I hope that you become enlightened on the matter soon. I hope that you too will completely grasp the POWER of unconditional forgiveness! Its miraculous it its ability to heal the sick heart and bring the mind to a higher state of peacefulness than you have ever imagined. Forgiveness takes practice, start today.



Where do you get this pile of sh-t?

Anger is a natural, adaptive response to threats; it inspires powerful, often aggressive, feelings and behaviors, which allow us to fight and to defend ourselves when we are attacked. A certain amount of anger, therefore, is necessary to our survival.
American Psychological Association

The instinctive, natural way to express anger is to respond aggressively. Anger is a natural, adaptive response to threats; it inspires powerful, often aggressive, feelings and behaviors, which allow us to fight and to defend ourselves when we are attacked. A certain amount of anger, therefore, is necessary to our survival.
American Psychological Association

When I say my anger is a gift that it is because it allows me to remain concious and not walk around drunk with apathy. It is whole lot easier to walk around not giving a f-ck. I am not comfortable with that. I am not consumed with anger and it does not stress me out. I am stressed out by the same sh-t as you(job security,finances...). I have not raged out in years. When I am extremely angry sometimes my thoughts become clearer and I am able to express myself better and get points across better. Do people know that I am angry? Not most of the time because I tend to remain calm.

Anger can be suppressed, and then converted or redirected. This happens when you hold in your anger, stop thinking about it, and focus on something positive. The aim is to inhibit or suppress your anger and convert it into more constructive behavior. The danger in this type of response is that if it isn't allowed outward expression, your anger can turn inward—on yourself. Anger turned inward may cause hypertension, high blood pressure, or depression.
American Psychological Association
Maybe you should be careful Mr."Anger is a cancer" you might have a stroke!
You really should get your ducks in a row before you start talking out the side of neck uhhh arse.
Forgiveness is cool but apathy is not. BTW Anger is not the complete opposite of forgiveness.

Originally posted by Fordman50:

Anger is a product of forces of evil (the devil if you will)
Are you in a cult? Where do you get this sh-t.
BTW are'nt you pro death penalty Mr.Forgiveness?
Originally posted by Fordman50:

suffice it to say that I tend to forgive bad men after they are dead I guess.
I don't think supporting killing is very forgiving.



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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

Anger isn't productive or useful? LOL

The American Revolution, The Civil Rights Movement, the Underground Railroad. Would any of these have occurred if anger & outrage hadn't compelled people to take action? The examples are endless.

Anger is a powerful motivator, just like any other emotion.

Let me make a distinction between normal, momentary anger and chronic anger. Some cuts you off and flips you the bird= regular, momentary anger. Chronic anger is when you live your life with a chip on your shoulder and an ax to grind and it IS a sickness. Yes I DO know all about it. I too struggle through life with baggage as you know. I am simply trying to help a friend with a valuable life lesson that I learned. No flames are ness.

Am I in a cult? Na, in fact I dont even like church since they abuse the bible and fill your life with sensless ritual. I prefur to exract the essence of the new testiment and remember a few basic rules like, turn the other cheek/forgive, do as Jesus would do, ect. BTW, did you know that Pat Robertson and Jerry faldwell are pro-death?

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Winner of the "peoples Choice award" for supreme advocate for the people!

I'm not "always right", it just seems that way

Spelling is for kids! I think you got the point!

Originally posted by Fordman50:
Chronic anger is when you live your life with a chip on your shoulder and an ax to grind and it IS a sickness.

Again, where do you get this sh-t? You might be confusing anger with bitterness. I don't think they are one in the same. You may have an argument there. If you are totally consumed with bitterness there can be negative effects. I will concede that I am bitter but not as consumed with it as you might think or as it may come across in my takes.

Originally posted by Fordman50:

I am simply trying to help a friend with a valuable life lesson that I learned. No flames are ness.

Not trying to flame or hurt. Just venting and clearing up what I percieve are misconceptions about my character.

Originally posted by Fordman50:

BTW, did you know that Pat Robertson and Jerry faldwell are pro-death?


There are many people that call themselves Christian and are pro-death penalty and pro-life at the same time. They go Old Testemant in a minute. I don't agree whith those type of Christians or Christian leaders. I more or less go New Testemant like you were saying. Pat Robertson almost single handedly ruined the Republican party with that right-wing Christian stuff.


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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

[This message has been edited by freedom (edited 06-26-2001).]

[This message has been edited by freedom (edited 06-26-2001).]

Originally posted by D Durden:
Freedom . . . I'm new here, so this is not an attack . . . just a question. What do you think America should do to help the plight of black people. I'm not fishing for an emotional response nor am I baiting you. I simply want to know your opinion.

First and foremost, acknowledge that there is a problem. Acknowledge that the problem has been ongoing and is in part the result of slavery and systematic discrimination.

Second: discuss and research the worst things about the black plight (shouldn't need much time or money for this), identify them.

Third: discuss solutions and yes they might cost money or involve some form of AA.

Fourth: Educate, Educate, Educate.

Fifth: Take the money out of drugs. The drug war is a big problem in the black community. I have lived on both sides of the fence and I have to tell you when I struggle to make ends meet I have to remind myself of what I hate about drug dealing otherwise it still looks inviting.

Sixth: I'm not sure how but we need to show that there are benefits and rewards for breaking the cycle.

On the real I don't have any profound answers. I just know that we can't ignore everything and act like everything is alright. We also can't believe that it is as easy as "just do like do". We need to be open and not to quick to dismiss. I'm open, really. At least I think I am.


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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

Okay, fair points.

1. I think we can all agree there's a problem. I will anyway.

2. Worst things about "black plight"? Poverty and hopelessness . . . how's that? I'm betting I'm close.

3. Solutions that cost money or AA. Well, I think it's safe to say that ANY reasonable solution will cost money. That's a given. The question is who do you spend the money on? Do you some how pay white people to "change", do you "re-educate" everyone, do you have tons of social programs to help inner cities (what about poor country folk?), or do you just start handing out "free" money to poor people? It's tough . . . I know. But, SOMEBODY has to come up with a detailed plan that makes sense.

AA isn't, hasn't, and won't work NOT due to prejudice, but due to human nature . . . we resist ANY change FORCED on us . . . and AA is FORCE.

4. Educate . . . I agree, but what KIND of education? Vocational schools and college for poor black kids? Neh, there's enough minority money out there to make a living off of. If you're black and poor, you can afford to go to school. Educate white people about how evil prejudice is? We saw that movie. We all feel guilty. Now, what are we going to do about black on white prejudice? They both feed off of each other, so you can't TRULY rid the world of one without ridding the world of the other.

5. Honestly, I agree with you. We probably SHOULD legalize it all. With the resources saved, hey, maybe we could actually do some good.

6. The benefits and rewards of breaking the cycle should be obvious. It will mean an improvement in EVERYONE'S lifestyle as we can start using social money funds for other things such as tax rebates, space exploration, and medical research. I'm ALL for it.

I think we can ALL agree that there's a problem, but, like the movie The Untouchables, "What are we prepared to do?" I'm going to be honest, white people aren't going to be eager to help the "black plight" until we recognize a strong and co-operative black leadership. The NAACP exists NOT from advancing the black people, but from exposing prejudice and perceived racism wherever they can find it (or create it). Most of the white community FEARS the NAACP and its wrath, and no one wants to negotiate or co-operate under fear.

I think the white community will be willing to help out, but only after we see a change in the black community. We perceive that if a black leader IS successful and is willing to discuss relations without screaming "RACISTS!" at every turn, the black community will abandon them as a "Tom" i.e. if they don't agree that it's all the "white man"'s fault and every black person deserves a big fat check, then that black leader is a "Tom". No one can negotiate or co-operate under those terms.

On the GOOD side, I'm starting to see the change a bit. More blacks are becoming successful in the "white man"'s world and are seeing that the color that REALLY matters is green. Maybe we can get enough strength and numbers behind THESE kinds of leaders, the "white leadership" will come to the table and say "how can we speed this process up?" I hope so, anyway.

Freedom . . . I'm new here, so this is not an attack . . . just a question. What do you think America should do to help the plight of black people. I'm not fishing for an emotional response nor am I baiting you. I simply want to know your opinion.

Originally posted by D Durden:
Okay, fair points.

1. I think we can all agree there's a problem. I will anyway.

2. Worst things about "black plight"? Poverty and hopelessness . . . how's that? I'm betting I'm close.

3. Solutions that cost money or AA. Well, I think it's safe to say that ANY reasonable solution will cost money. That's a given. The question is who do you spend the money on? Do you some how pay white people to "change", do you "re-educate" everyone, do you have tons of social programs to help inner cities (what about poor country folk?), or do you just start handing out "free" money to poor people? It's tough . . . I know. But, SOMEBODY has to come up with a detailed plan that makes sense.

AA isn't, hasn't, and won't work NOT due to prejudice, but due to human nature . . . we resist ANY change FORCED on us . . . and AA is FORCE.

4. Educate . . . I agree, but what KIND of education? Vocational schools and college for poor black kids? Neh, there's enough minority money out there to make a living off of. If you're black and poor, you can afford to go to school. Educate white people about how evil prejudice is? We saw that movie. We all feel guilty. Now, what are we going to do about black on white prejudice? They both feed off of each other, so you can't TRULY rid the world of one without ridding the world of the other.

5. Honestly, I agree with you. We probably SHOULD legalize it all. With the resources saved, hey, maybe we could actually do some good.

6. The benefits and rewards of breaking the cycle should be obvious. It will mean an improvement in EVERYONE'S lifestyle as we can start using social money funds for other things such as tax rebates, space exploration, and medical research. I'm ALL for it.

I think we can ALL agree that there's a problem, but, like the movie The Untouchables, "What are we prepared to do?" I'm going to be honest, white people aren't going to be eager to help the "black plight" until we recognize a strong and co-operative black leadership. The NAACP exists NOT from advancing the black people, but from exposing prejudice and perceived racism wherever they can find it (or create it). Most of the white community FEARS the NAACP and its wrath, and no one wants to negotiate or co-operate under fear.

I think the white community will be willing to help out, but only after we see a change in the black community. We perceive that if a black leader IS successful and is willing to discuss relations without screaming "RACISTS!" at every turn, the black community will abandon them as a "Tom" i.e. if they don't agree that it's all the "white man"'s fault and every black person deserves a big fat check, then that black leader is a "Tom". No one can negotiate or co-operate under those terms.

On the GOOD side, I'm starting to see the change a bit. More blacks are becoming successful in the "white man"'s world and are seeing that the color that REALLY matters is green. Maybe we can get enough strength and numbers behind THESE kinds of leaders, the "white leadership" will come to the table and say "how can we speed this process up?" I hope so, anyway.

Good points and I agree we have a real problem in black leadership and some of your observations in this area are legitimate. I might elaborate further later.



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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

Originally posted by freedom:
First and foremost, acknowledge that there is a problem. Acknowledge that the problem has been ongoing and is in part the result of slavery and systematic discrimination.

Second: discuss and research the worst things about the black plight (shouldn't need much time or money for this), identify them.



Unless someone has been living in a cave I think every thiking being understands slavery was wrong, caused problems, and is causing problems today. I am one of the people you resent I am sure. I don't know you except from these posts. But I would agree with Fordman that you have a chip on your shoulder. That is my take on it. You say you don't but maybe you don't know that you do. Why would people make it up? You give that impression.

What do we do about ongoing harm? How do you educate young people who think it is not cool to get an education? Tough one. How do you economically help people who practice no reproductive responsibility. (The statistic is 68% unwed births I think)I think these solutions have to come from the black community, anyone else will be labeled racist and that is the quickest way to shut down an honest discussion that I know.

First and foremost we must recognize that black urban soiciety is the problem. It may have been whitey's fault that it started and continued so long, but it is the problem.

People talk differently, act differently, dress differently, think differently, look differently and then whine because they are treated differently. Duh?

Just my take on it.

Focus Danielson! Wax on! Wax off!
Show me, sand tha floor!

------------------
"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

Originally posted by Cosmo:


First and foremost we must recognize that black urban soiciety is the problem.

Did you mean to say that POOR black urban society is A problem?

You really need to elaborate on this point. there is a threads worth of debate on this alone. Want to start a new thread?

------------------
Winner of the "peoples Choice award" for supreme advocate for the people!

I'm not "always right", it just seems that way

Spelling is for kids! I think you got the point!

I'd love to elaborate but why start a new thread? You shut down the last one I posted on. You said,lets get back on topic" and then locked the thread.

I don't get Freedom's comment about waxing the floor. Maybe some of this discussion is a little over my head. Maybe Freedom, you can enlighten me.

That thread was closed cause it strayed way off and it was my topic, thats all.

Do shed some light

------------------
Winner of the "peoples Choice award" for supreme advocate for the people!

I'm not "always right", it just seems that way

Spelling is for kids! I think you got the point!

I think that until every single European-American faces that facts and admits that Freedom is %100 correct here, we should cut a check for 100k to all African-Americans instead of getting a tax break. People who are only 1/2 black or have even one drop of white in them get nothing under my plan though. Sorry, I have to draw the line somewhere.

Once the checks are in hand, I am sure its going to be a big love fest too. I am personally going to do my part by sharing my little black book with my good friend Jessie Jackson.

[This message has been edited by Bill Clinton (edited 06-28-2001).]

OK. i don't get your reasoning but it's your site, I'll play by your rules.

Yes, I think the poor black urban culture is the problem (not the only problem) I agree it may have evolved from a truely horrific circumstance, but it is the problem. This poor society (and it is cross racial)has a value system that is completely at odds with economic success. It is extremely difficult for a poor unwed mother to raise another Anita Hill or Colin Powell. And yet, in this poor society education is derided, getting YOUNG girls pregnant is considered a contest, and where having a police record is no big deal. I'm told that 2 out of 5 young black men between the ages of 16 to 25 are most likely to have a criminal record, either arrest or conviction. If you accept that most crimes are never solved then the ratio might be 50-50. If you remove race I think the ratio would be the same among poor whites raised the same way.

The same high ratio of law breakers leads to racial profiling, which leads to resentment among good citizens black or white, which leads to Freedom's experience of being stopped o the way home from work, which leads to the chip on his shoulder. Vicious cycle/circle. How do you break that?

Hey, whoever you are, Ian is going to be PIST when he finds out you were using his account . . . but at least I agree with you on some points! http://discussanything.com/Ubb/biggrin.gif

Originally posted by Cosmo:
OK. i don't get your reasoning but it's your site, I'll play by your rules.

Yes, I think the poor black urban culture is the problem (not the only problem) I agree it may have evolved from a truely horrific circumstance, but it is the problem. This poor society (and it is cross racial)has a value system that is completely at odds with economic success. It is extremely difficult for a poor unwed mother to raise another Anita Hill or Colin Powell. And yet, in this poor society education is derided, getting YOUNG girls pregnant is considered a contest, and where having a police record is no big deal. I'm told that 2 out of 5 young black men between the ages of 16 to 25 are most likely to have a criminal record, either arrest or conviction. If you accept that most crimes are never solved then the ratio might be 50-50. If you remove race I think the ratio would be the same among poor whites raised the same way.

The same high ratio of law breakers leads to racial profiling, which leads to resentment among good citizens black or white, which leads to Freedom's experience of being stopped o the way home from work, which leads to the chip on his shoulder. Vicious cycle/circle. How do you break that?

Read this article:
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=11078



------------------
"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

OK I read the article. It doesn't explain your floorwaxing comment, or if it did, I didn't get it.

I don't know what conclusion to draw from the article. I worry about my wife, a teacher, who fom time to time has to visit inner city schools, sometimes at night. Does that make me a racist? If that is your definition of a racist then I'm guilty. But in my defense, we have a couple of friends who are teachers (black btw)and they are a fraid of going into poor black neighborhoods. Does that make them racists too or are they just guilty of haveing common sense.

In any event, it is safe to say I think i missed the point of the article. Its too bad Ian locked the other thread because you were catching a little heat. I'm betting you didn't need him to protect you and I thought the discussion was worth haveing.

Originally posted by Cosmo:
OK I read the article. It doesn't explain your floorwaxing comment, or if it did, I didn't get it.

I don't know what conclusion to draw from the article. I worry about my wife, a teacher, who fom time to time has to visit inner city schools, sometimes at night. Does that make me a racist? If that is your definition of a racist then I'm guilty. But in my defense, we have a couple of friends who are teachers (black btw)and they are a fraid of going into poor black neighborhoods. Does that make them racists too or are they just guilty of haveing common sense.

In any event, it is safe to say I think i missed the point of the article. Its too bad Ian locked the other thread because you were catching a little heat. I'm betting you didn't need him to protect you and I thought the discussion was worth haveing.

Don't worry about the Karate Kid stuff. Just my way of dismissing a post that I think is not focused when I know you could do better like Danielson. Get it. I wanted you to read the article because Tim had some numbers in there that I wanted you to see about blacks and crime since you had some numbers you were throwing out there.


------------------
"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

Time.

Reparations won't fix much in the long run. In the case of a check, it'll be gone and things are back to where they were before. A tax break would cause major resentment. So if the flaws are so obvious, why do it? Is it truly to fix a problem, or is it revenge on the descendants or anyone who has the racial charachteristics of a few *******s of yesteryear?

I do find myself at odds with the culture of inner city blacks. Its a hard thing to talk about without wondering into the relm of faulse negitive stereo type though. I understand that there is a culture that is perpetuated that is incompatable with success though. I KNOW freedom will disagree with me on this. BUT you could go beyond the single mother thing (my mom was a white, teenage, single parent BTW), the value system is way out of wack is the environment (ei sex, violence, drugs, sex, sex). Just listen to the music. I like the music but its message is twisted. This sub-culture is a disfunctional one.

Another point, We have a lot of blacks (not all) at work who dont tuck their shirts in and wear timberland boots and crap. I dont like playing the silly dress up game either but I dont dress like a fool and come to work and expect to get a promotion either. I think they look fine on the street but its not going to further their career. The corporate culture is a "white" one, like it or not. You dont have to like it, I dont, but I choose to play by the rule to get payed.

Bottom line is, my culture is not a perfect one, but it serves me well in corporate America. That means I can make money and need no more gov hand outs. Black urban culture as a whole does seem to to hold a lot of people back. It is worth noting that not all things in this culture are negative nor do all blacks fall under the umbrella of this "black urban sub-culture"



------------------
Winner of the "peoples Choice award" for supreme advocate for the people!

I'm not "always right", it just seems that way

Spelling is for kids! I think you got the point!

Oh... I see this place has a built in swear stopper.

Originally posted by pitchafit:
Oh... I see this place has a built in swear stopper.

So fuggin what? I think you can still make your dam point. I never gave a sh!t about that! Get my point?

------------------
Winner of the "peoples Choice award" for supreme advocate for the people!

I'm not "always right", it just seems that way

Spelling is for kids! I think you got the point!

Yeah, it's all good. I just came here from the RATM UBB, so I'm not used to it.

Bet I know who sent you!

------------------
Winner of the "peoples Choice award" for supreme advocate for the people!

I'm not "always right", it just seems that way

Spelling is for kids! I think you got the point!

Originally posted by freedom:
Don't worry about the Karate Kid stuff. Just my way of dismissing a post that I think is not focused when I know you could do better like Danielson. Get it. I wanted you to read the article because Tim had some numbers in there that I wanted you to see about blacks and crime since you had some numbers you were throwing out there.


Didn't see the Karate Kid and i don't know who Daneilson is so I guess that is why I didn't get it. May be I'm just not clever enough. No reason to be dissin me tho'.

I reread what I wrote and don't know that I agree with your focused comment, but Im no smarter than the average bear. Maybe if we stick to the discussion instead of my literary abilities or lack of them we can continue with what I thought was a nice exchange of views.

I'm not dissin' you. And I figured that you must have never seen the movie. You didn't miss much.

------------------
"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

I'm glad, I'm happy!

Can we get back to the discussion now?

Originally posted by freedom:
I agree that reperations are unlikely and for the most part not feasable however your argument is not good. European immigrants that came to this country by choice not force and most always worked for money while sharecropping was nothing more than legal slavery. There is no way you should attempt to compare the two. Also because Europeans had a sense of who they were and had not been torn apart as a people for 200 years of slavery, torture, and psychological oppression that continued. Then after 25 years or so the same imigrants that you speak of went on to control police forces and political machines that continued to oppress a group of people that had been brought here by force what at least 150 years earlier? So no I do not think European immigrants have any reason what so ever to even consider recieving reperations. And under a totally different argumet, I probably could argue that those immigrants benifited from the oppression of black people that was perpetuated generation after generation. The other thing is you say "blacks can wish all they want". The sad thing is the blacks that need uplifting and help the most are not even concerned with reperations. They just continue to be caught in the vicious cycle of poverty, sub-standard education, drugs, violence.... Now as far as welfare goes. You have to be smarter than that. That is such a ridiculous statement it almost does not deserve reply. Pick up a history book and learn why welfare came to be and who it benifited most. Welfare as we know it now and what it turned into is arguably more a form of oppression than help and could never be considered any kind of reparation. Did you even read the entire article before you posted that weak arse reply? I think it was made clear the goal is to discuss reparations but in order to do so it would first have to be admited that anything wrong ever happened or is still happening.



================================================== =============
This is my very post in this forum, so everyone pay attention......

A few questions were raised that I feel could use a little more coverage. It seems that many in the majority do not believe the simple fact that what has happened in the past effects what happens in the present and the future. This is a sad notion indeed for history tends to repeat itself, both
for good and bad.

In addition it has also come to my attention that many wish to place the responsibility of
educating the oppressor on the oppressed. Thus, stating that it is the soul responsibility of the oppressed to regulate or govern the oppressor's actions. In other
words, set boundaries or limits that control the oppressors actions and regulate the amount of bull**** that we (the oppressed)
will allow the oppressors to get away with before we blow up and seek proactive reforms for the current system (if you know what I mean). This mentality is just a misdirection of accountability. The oppressors place the responsibility of controlling their behavior on the victims of it.This is
accomplished by a Santa Claus like belief held by the oppressors that exchanges like the following have occurred in the past: The Oppressed collectively say to oppressors that you can confine our people to live in subhuman conditions ...…And the Oppressors agree that this is a fair trade off....
It's a give and take if you will that supposedly occurred many years ago. However, I find this story, this belief, to be BULL****! For it is not the oppressed group's responsibility to oversee (and thus take the blame) for the oppressor's negative behavior that is directed against their group. Furthermore, the responsibility truly lies in the person or group that exhibits or acts out such behavior. Moreover, educating the oppressors is not the soul responsibility of the oppressed. As any teacher will tell you the process of educating requires an active open-mind in the student. You cannot teach someone that is unwilling to learn. The information is available for people to learn. Crimes are still being committed against targeted groups in our society, education is the key to personal and social betterment…but if the lock has been changed, other means may be necessary.

Oppressors are always dumb as ****....

CYA
FF

European immigrants that came to this country by choice not force and most always worked for money while sharecropping was nothing more than legal slavery.

BZZZT! Wrong!

The Irish came to this country to escape the potato famine that the English were imposing on them. Some "choice" as you would put it... emigrate to the U.S. or starve to death.

Many of the Europeans who came here were indentured servants... in exchange for passage they agreed to work for the sponsor for a period of time, usually 7 years. No, as a matter of fact, they were not paid a cent during the contact. Of course, any slight infraction, damaged tools, etc, and the "contract" was extended to pay off these new debts. Very few managed to survive long enough to ever see their freedom. Of those who did, I really wonder how many ever made it into a high political office? Not a whole lot I would imagine...



------------------
Artist formerly known as Reindeer

Amen Turbo! My people were Irish, and they didn't have the easiest time becoming accepted in the US. I'm NOT comparing it to slavery, but it STILL wasn't easy.

And, after it's all said and done, I STILL haven't heard a list of "demands" from anyone on what it would take to satisfy the "black community". I keep hearing about how evil it was and how oppressed everyone is. Fine . . . we're all evil, now WHAT DO YOU WANT? Give me a nice, solid list of demands so we can GET ON WITH THE WHOLE THING.

Originally posted by Turbostang:
BZZZT! Wrong!

The Irish came to this country to escape the potato famine that the English were imposing on them. Some "choice" as you would put it... emigrate to the U.S. or starve to death.

Many of the Europeans who came here were indentured servants... in exchange for passage they agreed to work for the sponsor for a period of time, usually 7 years. No, as a matter of fact, they were not paid a cent during the contact. Of course, any slight infraction, damaged tools, etc, and the "contract" was extended to pay off these new debts. Very few managed to survive long enough to ever see their freedom. Of those who did, I really wonder how many ever made it into a high political office? Not a whole lot I would imagine...


Actually, the Irish were free to go whever they wanted. They didn't all move to the US.

Freedom Flyer, I rad it but didn't understand it. Just explain to me about the opressors. What is it they are supposed to do?


Freedom, there is no way to to assess anyone a penalty for what happened in the passed, at least not fairly. Most of the people here today were born of immigrant ancestors, people who came here since the civil war.What about setting aside some funds for a memorial museum in DC for instance, that explains what occurred and the consequences.

|The Irish thing, no matter where people came from or where they went they were rarely welcomed warmly. These are people from different cultures who are moving to a strange culture, its not easy for the natives or the newcomers. Again, let me point out all the violence taking place in the world today. It is difficult to find a multicultural society (not multi racial) that is without turmoil. Louis Farrakhan recognizes this and this is the reason he is calling for a seperate segregated nation in north America.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cosmo:
Freedom Flyer, I rad it but didn't understand it. Just explain to me about the opressors. What is it they are supposed to do?[QUOTE]

================================================== ============
Cosmo, You want to gain my attention, try changing someone's life for the better.(Instead try killing the Cracker-System)Take yer bent up hostilities and go create change.Or is that too difficult? Go throw a brick in the window of your neighborhood McDonalds if you can't muster up the mental ability to create true and lasting change. Go stalk and kill a corrupt cracker, one that has the blood of thousands on his/her hands (Instead of attempting to argue with me).

Yer propaganda, although obviously not yer own, is easily contradicted by facts,(as I have said in my above post) much like the existence of "god".Thus arguing with such a mental dwarf,is like arguing with a bible beater, leads to nowhere but frustration. You are nothing but a sad exaggerated example of the cracker mentality,which lives in the hearts of the majority of citizens in this country. I find your stances outdated, unoriginal, and weak. Your posts carry little if any facts whatsoever. What doesn't surprise me is that posters like you receive so much attention from the majority of posters on this bb. Your views are common; they dwell in the subconscious of the majority of North American/European enforcers of the status quo. Translation,crackers are not special, the only reason that other crackers even pay attention to you is that they wish to see what happens when and if they were to ever speak their inner most thoughts. But cosmo, I guess that's too noble for you....I say You are a follower and hence you are a cracker because you are condoning and utilizing the sterotype. In other words, yer acting like a puppet acting like a mindless sheep by propogating and instilling yet another stereotype, figuring that since society says its okay it must be....

My talents are best used in educating others and you with the Cracker mentality. You know what this means don't you Cosmo? Yes,you and many others like you are going to have to reformulate your whole view on the supremacy of one group over another. My intention for
writing this is not to correct yours or anyone's behavior, or claim that I am better than you are by taking the honest/moral high ground. Instead, it is to educate others by calling you out and making you an example of the negative and disesteemed. I take this burden upon myself because few here have taken the opportunity.

I post not to receive your response, for it is valueless.

CYA
FF
http://www.angelfire.com/journal2/ghostdancers2000/

Damnnnnnnnn!



------------------
"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

Originally posted by freedom:
Damnnnnnnnn!



================================================== =========
OHHHH DAAMMNNN'' http://discussanything.com/Ubb/biggrin.gif

CYA
FF

http://www.angelfire.com/journal2/ghostdancers2000/



[This message has been edited by FreedomFlyer (edited 06-30-2001).]

FF, just how do you feel when people use the N word? Cause you're starting to really annoy me with all your "cracker" talk. I consider myself more of a fig newton, personally.

-Patrick

------------------
"The difference between an individual terrorist and a government in some cases may be simply that the former has a bomb but doesn't have an air force."
-William Blum

Originally posted by PatTheAnarChrist:
FF, just how do you feel when people use the N word? Cause you're starting to really annoy me with all your "cracker" talk. I consider myself more of a fig newton, personally.

-Patrick



================================================== ===========
PatTheAnarChrist,you say that"Cause you're starting to really annoy me with all your "cracker" talk".Well I will define what I mean by a "Cracker Mentality".......

A Cracker is for me: A person in the social majority that relishes their current position
which is appointed to them based upon their race or economic status. This person steps
on the backs of others (doing so knowingly or not) and fights to maintain the current balance of power even in the face of injustice and suffering. This person struggles to push others down, physically and mentally and bases this decision solely upon race and or economic position.

A cracker fights against change (social and political) because it is not in their best
interest. A cracker is only interested in their social and economic dominance over others.

But if reading Comprehension is a skill that you have not mastered PatTheAnarChrist....I will be as specific as specific can be,(ie.if in this case you failed to grasp the bridging modifiers in the paragraph structure or by Your over simplification of my logic will be at best flawed.)
If You missed an important step, which I shall now fill in for you (as taken from my previous from the above) "the Cracker's common history and tradition is stupidity, the need to step on people based upon their differences, and intellectual insecurity".

Furthermore, you could miss the link that I formed between concepts of race and mentality....race is nothing more then a state of mind. Nevertheless, what more can be
expected from a person with a reading dysfunction. BTW. Is it true that Crackers misinterpret anything and everything that is not in their best interest? FF slaps the bad-Defensive-patrick up the side of the head with a two-by-four to gets his attention,
and another thing Patrick you should be considered a race all by yourself,however, the crackers are now considered a race.

Now looking at my proclamations in other posts; Who is a member of the cracker race you ask....Anyone who is ignorant, self indulgent, racist, selfish, hypocritical, megamoniacle and occasionally people who suffer from small man's syndrome.

Another Cracker crumbles in the vice of truth
Crackers are many colors. Skin color has nothing to do with the cracker mentality. A Cracker can be white, black, asian,native american etc.etc. Being a Cracker is simply a state of mind. Not all rednecks are white (although most are) the same goes for Crackers.A Cracker is for me: A person in the social majority that relishes their current position which is appointed to them based upon their race or economic status(ie Clarence Thomas,The Status Quo, Jessie Jackson,George W. Bush...)This person steps on the backs of others (doing so knowingly or not) and fights to maintain the current balance of power even in the face of injustice and suffering.This person struggles to push others down, physically and mentally and bases this decision solely upon race and or economic position. A cracker fights against change (social and political) because it is not in their interest. A cracker is only interested in their social and economic dominance over others.
------------------------------------
PatTheAnarChrist, you say" substituting the word "cracker" for N-word" I guess you would
know. Me, I've never met a ****** in person (although I am speaking to one now,namely you).How can you say that sh!t dumba--?
You see the word ****** is a label created
by Caucasians out of fear, to inject verbal doubts in the minds of dark skin individuals as being inferior to the Caucasian race.

In my opinion...The Caucasian Dictionary definition defines and establishes the
standards from which to identify individuals called "******s". I believe these standards are universal and thus apply to all human beings. Thus, If any human being is guilty of: stupidity,vulgar-offensive-hostile-behavior directed at his fellow human beings, and overall lack of concern for the quality of life of his/her fellow man then they have violated the standards (thus can be called ******s),regardless of skin color.

But remember I am more enlighten than most.So if I were you I would not be so
quick to use that word in public as you suggested(just some helpful advice).Dare not attempt to link the word cracker with the word ******, for they are not the same thing, nor are they meant to be.
(For clarification observe the definition
of the term ******(check a dictionary)
and observe the definition of the term cracker (check in my above post).

Oh how the cracker crumbles

CYA
FF
http://www.angelfire.com/journal2/ghostdancers2000/





[This message has been edited by FreedomFlyer (edited 06-30-2001).]

Originally posted by D Durden:
Amen Turbo! My people were Irish, and they didn't have the easiest time becoming accepted in the US. I'm NOT comparing it to slavery, but it STILL wasn't easy.

And, after it's all said and done, I STILL haven't heard a list of "demands" from anyone on what it would take to satisfy the "black community". I keep hearing about how evil it was and how oppressed everyone is. Fine . . . we're all evil, now WHAT DO YOU WANT? Give me a nice, solid list of demands so we can GET ON WITH THE WHOLE THING.

I think that I posted some suggestions on how we might approach things. No demands.


------------------
"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

Wow, where to start. Well, first, just using inflammatory language, making up definitions, and speaking to everyone in a condescending tone simply shows your ignorance. It doesn't make anyone think you're smarter or that you're even remotely correct. Hun, I'm from a little redneck town - a cracker is not what you say it is. You can't just say 'hmm, cracker, that's a good word. Let me see...what can I say it means?' It already has a meaning. If I were to take, say, f*ckwad and decide it was someone who was, say, a hard worker...well, you can imagine the responses I'd get. FYI, for many Caucasians, being called a cracker is close to calling an African American a n*gger. Both groups have taken the names as a badge of pride between friends, but if someone outside their friends calls them that, it's taken as a huge insult. And yes, both names are racial insults, no matter what your made-up definitions state.

------------------
"I have no regrets. Regret only makes wrinkles." - Sophia Loren

Originally posted by Turbostang:
BZZZT! Wrong!

The Irish came to this country to escape the potato famine that the English were imposing on them. Some "choice" as you would put it... emigrate to the U.S. or starve to death. Still by choice. Might they have immigarted somewhere else? I guess not realistically. The US was welcoming them (govt. anyway) while they were still oppressing blacks in the Jim Crow south and the nation in general.

Originally posted by Turbostang:

Many of the Europeans who came here were indentured servants... in exchange for passage they agreed to work for the sponsor for a period of time, usually 7 years. No, as a matter of fact, they were not paid a cent during the contact. Of course, any slight infraction, damaged tools, etc, and the "contract" was extended to pay off these new debts. Very few managed to survive long enough to ever see their freedom. Of those who did, I really wonder how many ever made it into a high political office? Not a whole lot I would imagine...


You need to tighten this up for me. Your history lesson is kind of, I don't know, all over the place? I am interested in this, so give me some dates or points of refference.

------------------
"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

Originally posted by Turbostang:
BZZZT! Wrong!

The Irish came to this country to escape the potato famine that the English were imposing on them. Some "choice" as you would put it... emigrate to the U.S. or starve to death.

No, as a matter of fact, they were not paid a cent during the contact. Of course, any slight infraction, damaged tools, etc, and the "contract" was extended to pay off these new debts. Very few managed to survive long enough to ever see their freedom. Of those who did, I really wonder how many ever made it into a high political office? Not a whole lot I would imagine...



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Well Turbostang "Many of the Europeans who came here were indentured servants... in exchange for passage they agreed to work for the sponsor for a period of time, usually 7 years" You must remember the one weakness of any argument is the ability to decifer the difference between the core of any argument and poot(BS)or otherwise yer argument ends up in the crapper....

The difference between Indentured Servants and out and out "Slavery" is that Indentured Servants came to this Country on their "FREE Choice and were paid for a specific time period" whilst on the other hand, the "Slaves were brought to this Country AGAINST THEIR FREE WILL for a lifetime and were NOT paid" It's the Lysol of truth,that Crap-logs like yerself hate it so they don't want to come near it. Truth bringers like me almost corner the market on the stuff. This is what gives me the edge over the ignorant. Upon contact,they wither their insubstantial attempts to spread their pathogen like ideologies. It diminishes their effective- ness to the point of dormancy or death. Luckily for us truth Lysol is easy to come by and administer. Therefore, in the long run I have the edge.

Until later, don't eat the cake at the bottom of the urinal, it's not a mint!

CYA
FF

[This message has been edited by FreedomFlyer (edited 06-30-2001).]

Alright people, I'm shutting this one down. Freedom, Manu, see my post in the Staff forum.

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Artist formerly known as Reindeer