Let's debate it :)

In my opinion, talking about "the Iraqi opposition movement" as if it's one singular group is a bit dumb. It's certainly possible that there is one or another sympathic group among the chaos of "movements" currently warring in Iraq, but I think most of them are fighting for their own clan/sect/ethnic group against Americans and other clans/sects/ethnic groups :p

So I think the best solution is if everyone could just calm down, so things could become clearer, and we could get an overview so as to see whether there is actually a democracy on the horizon.

The fog of war will only make it easier for whoever wins to hide/defend the fact that they're not democratic and/or support the human rights.

I agree, it's like when people call them all "terrorists", espcially now that we know the whole Zarqawi thing was hyped up..

U.S. exaggerates al-Zarqawi’s role in insurgency

The U.S. military is conducting a propaganda campaign to magnify the role of al-Qaida in Iraq’s leader, according to internal military documents and officers familiar with the program.

The effort has raised the profile of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in a way that some military intelligence officials believe may have overstated his importance and helped the Bush administration tie the war to the organization responsible for the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

The documents state that the U.S. campaign aims to turn Iraqis against al-Zarqawi, a Jordanian, by playing on their perceived dislike of foreigners. U.S. authorities claim some success with the effort, noting that some tribal Iraqi insurgents have attacked al-Zarqawi loyalists.

For the past two years, U.S. military leaders have been using Iraqi media and other outlets in Baghdad to publicize al-Zarqawi’s role in the insurgency. The documents explicitly list the “U.S. Home Audience” as a target of a broader propaganda campaign.

Some senior intelligence officers believe al-Zarqawi’s role might have been overemphasized by the propaganda campaign, which has included leaflets, radio and TV broadcasts, Internet postings and at least one leak to an American journalist. Although al-Zarqawi and other foreign insurgents in Iraq have conducted deadly bombing attacks, they remain “a very small part of the actual numbers,” Col. Derek Harvey told an Army meeting at Fort Leavenworth last summer. Harvey served as a military intelligence officer in Iraq and then was one of the top officers handling Iraq intelligence issues on the staff of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/14305795.htm?source=rss&channel=kansascity_nation

to my knowledge, no one has claimed it is one singular group, but I'm glad CA had another opportunity to repost info that has already had a thread devoted to it :nice: (never saw that coming)

to my knowledge, no one has claimed it is one singular group- I never said anyone outright claimed that, but a lot of people are talking about the Iraqi opposition as if they were a unified, homogenous group - either claiming "the Iraqi opposition" is screaming for the blood of civilians, the establishment of an Iraqi theocracy or just freedom of democracy without a US military presence and a puppet government.

I'm glad CA had another opportunity to repost info that has already had a thread devoted to it :nice: (never saw that coming)- Let's keep things peaceful in this thread too...

Well it looks like they're hyping the Zarqawi thing up in order to establish better solidarity of this variety of sects/clans and turning them loose against foreign enemies of the state. Interesting idea, but I don't think its working.

- I never said anyone outright claimed that, but a lot of people are talking about the Iraqi opposition as if they were a unified, homogenous group - either claiming "the Iraqi opposition" is screaming for the blood of civilians, the establishment of an Iraqi theocracy or just freedom of democracy without a US military presence and a puppet government.

- Let's keep things peaceful in this thread too...

For propaganda purposes (i.e., to cover up reality), it's a much more appealing narrative to have the Americans fighting off a unified group of "terrorists," than to have them caught up in a huge and complicated mess of their own creation.

It's a lot easier to demonize the unified group as a bunch of fanatical insane murderous muslims; complexity disperses the focus of the good v. evil narrative, and renders it ineffective.

Human nature being what it is,I somehow doubt even the majority of the Iraqis understand a lot of the subtleties.In religious matters,sometimes the most idiotic controversies blaze into existence-some of this stuff is related to bloodlines,some is related to belief systems.

For propaganda purposes (i.e., to cover up reality), it's a much more appealing narrative to have the Americans fighting off a unified group of "terrorists," than to have them caught up in a huge and complicated mess of their own creation. - To be fair, it's just as much a creation of Saddam and the civil wars before him. The only reason he managed to sustain some sort of "peace" was because he knew how to play the different groups against each other.

Militias are a problem. They're runnin' wild in Iraq according to media reports. The struggle continues, the occupation continues, and the blood continues to flow...

I agree, it's like when people call them all "terrorists", espcially now that we know the whole Zarqawi thing was hyped up..



http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/14305795.htm?source=rss&channel=kansascity_nation



Only one thing wrong with this ! The fact that little girls walking home from school get beheaded with head left on one side of street and body on other . Also the the people who use to give care and charity to them being hacked to peices and cut up like a chicken ,like the woman they butchered a while back . Poor iraqi police being brutally murdered . Never condemned by this or any other satan possesed iman ! All the while the followers jump up and down in the streets praising it .

Is this the ' propaganda 'you mean ?

:confused:

- To be fair, it's just as much a creation of Saddam and the civil wars before him. The only reason he managed to sustain some sort of "peace" was because he knew how to play the different groups against each other.


he ruled the cults with the same kind of violence they understand and live by . This is why he kept them mostly in peace . But some were treated better than others .

If we allow this tribe to take over the world like they almost did before , we wil all be enslaved, like Africa and other muslem ruled nations .

Bad thing is there is no longer a middle ground . We either have nations of sodom and gommorrh or nations of violent subjective dictatator cults of poverty with little or no advancements .

but I think most of them are fighting for their own clan/sect/ethnic group against Americans and other clans/sects/ethnic groups :p.
Do you think any sect leader believes more benefit can be gained by sending suicide bomber, or burn a mosque, or kill american soldiers ?

If we get attacked again we may all have different opinions . This wasn't our famiies who burned to death and leaped out of windows , it was somebody elses !

Whatever or whoever caused 9-11 may never be known for sure , but I bet the families who had tragic deaths won't rest till they have all the facts . They do know that muselms don't assimilate and most think they are too good to look us in the eye . Now I know we are a bunch of un- Godly pagans , but somebody needs to exorcise them so the demons possesing them comes out and stops killing ,imo.

We saw a small herd of the ghost like covered women today in the store . I wanted to say ,'trick or treat ' but they wouldn't look at me . I tried to make eye contact with a couple of them but they won't look at infidels . I hope they weren't casing the place . It's all over the websites something is about to come down soon . They just caught a Ga.Tech and another suspected headhunter who was setting up attack and he's lived here all his life .

So long America , it sure was lovely to know you . Sorry your citizens and leaders abandoned you . I still fly your flag and play your patriotic songs sometimes . I still remember the pledge allegence to your flag . not because the peice of cloth is anything, but what it stood for was as good as it gets .

Do you think any sect leader believes more benefit can be gained by sending suicide bomber, or burn a mosque, or kill american soldiers ?- Not entirely sure what you're trying to ask here, but I think maybe you're making an attempt at being rhetorical.

- Not entirely sure what you're trying to ask here, but I think maybe you're making an attempt at being rhetorical.
I do not think the leaders of Sunnis really believe by killing/violence they can rule Shiites again.

The violence may stop the goverment build process backed by US and force US to withdraw. If US do leave, can Sunnis fight and win a civil war, put Saddam back in power? Sounds more like something Muslim extreamist who hate anything other than themself would want.

I do not think the leaders of Sunnis really believe by killing/violence they can rule Shiites again.

The violence may stop the goverment build process backed by US and force US to withdraw. If US do leave, can Sunnis fight and win a civil war, put Saddam back in power? Sounds more like something Muslim extreamist who hate anything other than themself would want.- I think the reason there are people (who I don't think are in the majority) who want the US to leave, is because of the way the US acts in other middle eastern countries. I.e. they have a strong military presence that makes people feel uneasy. They really don't want to be ruled by a US puppet-government, and I think some people think this would be worse than Saddam.

I honestly don't think the two big sects are the most important divisions either. Tribe/clan loyalties might be much more important.

Clearly what we have in Iraq is the result of a power vacuum. Saddam held it together with fear, and the secret police. Most Arab countries are rife with sects/factions. Therefore the govts., are tough and dictatorial. From Assad, Mubarak, Hussein, Saudi Princes. The chaos in Iraq is not just a "rational" struggle for power, it is also a natural expression of lawlessness. If Iraq becomes stable it will be because a powerful leader takes the helm and institutes a dictatorship, but more likely it will break up into it's factional states of Shia, Sunni and Kurd. Also all of these factions have factions, so expect power struggles within the sections, aided and abetted by foreign interests: Iran (Shia); Saudis (Sunni).

While we are still focused on Iraq we are not seeing that Afghanistan is slowly returning to it's old ways. Karzai is losing control, the Taliban and other factions are getting more powerful, and the war lords will have to fight to keep their power. It may not crash, as it did following Russia's withdrawal, but it will continue to be a largely lawless area that will allow the jihadists to set foot again!

Whether we like it or not, if we want these areas to be stable we will need to back tough dictatorships, as long as we can get them to root out their own jihadists. Same old same old!