TUCSON, Ariz. (AP) - Minuteman border watch leader Chris Simcox has a message for President Bush: Build new security fencing along the border with Mexico or private citizens will.

Simcox said Wednesday that he's sending an ultimatum to the president, through the media, of course - "You can't get through to the president any other way" - to deploy military reserves and the National Guard to the Arizona border by May 25.

Or, Simcox said, by the Memorial Day weekend Minuteman Civil Defense Corps volunteers and supporters will break ground to start erecting fencing privately.

"We have had landowners approach," Simcox said in an interview. "We've been working on this idea for a while. We're going to show the federal government how easy it is to build these security fences, how inexpensively they can be built when built by private people and free enterprise."

Simcox said a half-dozen landowners along the Arizona-Mexico border have said they will allow fencing to be placed on their borderlands, and others in California, Texas and New Mexico have agreed to do so as well.

"Certainly, as with everything else, we're only able to cover a small portion of the border," Simcox said. "The state and federal government have bought up most of the land around the border. I suspect that's why we'll never get control of the border."

But he said the plan is to put up secure fencing that truly will be an effective deterrent, and to show how easily it can be accomplished.

Simcox gave this description of the envisioned barrier-and-fencing complex:

Start with a 6-foot deep trench so a vehicle can't crash through; behind it, roll of concertina (coiled, razor-edged barbed wire), in front of a 15-foot high heavy-gauge steel mesh fence angled outward at the top.

Behind the fence will be a 60- to 70-foot wide unpaved but graded dirt road, along with inexpensive, mounted video cameras that can be monitored from home computers. On the other side of the road will be a second, 15-foot fence, with more concertina wire on its outside.

"It's a very simple, effective design based on feedback we've had from Border Patrol and the military," Simcox said. "It's a fence that can be built on the cheap, effective and secure."

Simcox said supporters will try to build the fencing with volunteer labor. Surveyors and contractors have offered to help with the design and survey work, he said, and some have said they will provide heavy equipment.

Simcox said those involved in the planning hope to keep costs to between $125 and $150 a foot.

Access to land literally on the border is an issue because so much is state-leased trust property or federally owned, he said.

"You may have to deal with a situation where private property owners erect their own fences and may be faced with the president sending the National Guard to prevent them from protecting their private property," Simcox said.

He said the Minuteman plan is "to keep turning up the heat" until President Bush has to respond somehow.

http://news.aol.com/nation/story?id=n20060419224809990001&cid=505

I love it. I hope the GOPs ill-concieved decision to make immigration an election year hype issue blows up in their faces.

Filthy, disgusting, self righteous, anti-hispanic leftists threatening the president of the United States.

They should be taken out and flogged.

Immigration is a bipartisran problem, and niether paty wants to deal with it for various reasons.

Fortunately, most politicians don't lead; they follow, and if enough Americans raise hell about how sick we are of giving away our country over to a bunch of people who have no regard for it's laws, we may eventually see some real action on stopping the flow of illegals. When we tighten the Southern border, we can close the northern one as well. Then, we need to beef up the coast guard and patrol our coastlines.

There was a good story on the news a little while ago about this issue, and they were pointing out how hypocritical the Mexican governement is. If anyone sneaks across their border, they're treated as the criminals they are, yet the government encourages it's own citizens to sneak into the US and send home money.

Maybe we should have invaded Mexico instead of Iraq. They're a more imminent threat to our national soveriegnty and public welfare than just about any other country in the world.

I love it. I hope the GOPs ill-concieved decision to make immigration an election year hype issue blows up in their faces.

WTF are you smoking? The GOP has as little concern for the common working man as you seem to. The GOP leadership is doing everything they can to open the borders even more. Cheap labor benefits their corporate paymasters, for the few jobs that have yet to be shipped overseas. The GOP WANTS open borders...and in all likelihood is going to get them.

Filthy, disgusting, self righteous, anti-hispanic leftists threatening the president of the United States.

They should be taken out and flogged.

Asking the President to do his f***ing job is threatening?
Protecting the borders of our country is not anti-hispanic. It's the intelligent thing to do.

WTF are you smoking? The GOP has as little concern for the common working man as you seem to. The GOP leadership is doing everything they can to open the borders even more. Cheap labor benefits their corporate paymasters, for the few jobs that have yet to be shipped overseas. The GOP WANTS open borders...and in all likelihood is going to get them.



True ! But when did Hillery and Ted kennedy switch parties ? Because they are the only ones I see at their rallies and running their lying mouth . Hilery said, ,' Your the face of America " . Ted sceaming, " do you love America ".

Both parties are one' imo '. and how it isn't clear to everyone yet is amazing .

WTF are you smoking? The GOP has as little concern for the common working man as you seem to. The GOP leadership is doing everything they can to open the borders even more. Cheap labor benefits their corporate paymasters, for the few jobs that have yet to be shipped overseas. The GOP WANTS open borders...and in all likelihood is going to get them.

Few jobs? We have 4.7% unemployment. What mean you "few jobs"?

Asking the President to do his f***ing job is threatening?
Protecting the borders of our country is not anti-hispanic. It's the intelligent thing to do.


Agree.

The MM are justified. If I was down there I'd be right there with them. The fed gov't is failing the people.

Few jobs? We have 4.7% unemployment. What mean you "few jobs"?



I don't want to dissagree with you but on this one I have . The job now available are not the jobs we want or deserve . Most of us are too educated for Mc Donalds . Alot of our workers are being laid off and companys are moving to to other nations for low wage . My freind worked at GM for 33 years, now they want to give them buy out . They may also loes benefits and retirement . Other freind at Delta same thing . The only ones with ' jobs' are the upper class , the middle class is fading fast . We now are a nation of rich and poor, no more middle .

The only ones with ' jobs' are the upper class , the middle class is fading fast . We now are a nation of rich and poor, no more middle .

That's what the laze-faire approach to capitalism is designed to do. That's what the Republican platform is all about.

That's what the laze-faire approach to capitalism is designed to do. That's what the Republican platform is all about.


It's not capitalism . It's the citizens who have become greedy, law breaking and without moral or principles . We use to have family's who stayed together and paid attention . It was against the law to form monpolies og big biz . Now without absolutes or limits and a society that worships the god of greed, lust ,we have become a dictatorship , not a republic .

Filthy, disgusting, self righteous, anti-hispanic leftists threatening the president of the United States.

They should be taken out and flogged.

I was flogged aplenty when I was a kid. My back is used to it.

It's the citizens who have become greedy, law breaking and without moral or principles .

Sounds like capitalism to me.

It was against the law to form monpolies og big biz .


Then it wasn't capitalism.

we have become a dictatorship , not a republic .

No, we haven't. More like an oligarchy or a plutocracy. That's still bad, but not quite as bad as a dictatorship.

Sounds like capitalism to me.




Then it wasn't capitalism.



No, we haven't. More like an oligarchy or a plutocracy. That's still bad, but not quite as bad as a dictatorship.


I can see your socialist education showing here . Your knowlege has decreased your wisdom . I can't write enough info to debate this though . :nice:

WTF are you smoking? The GOP has as little concern for the common working man as you seem to. The GOP leadership is doing everything they can to open the borders even more. Cheap labor benefits their corporate paymasters, for the few jobs that have yet to be shipped overseas. The GOP WANTS open borders...and in all likelihood is going to get them.

I disagree that the GOP leadership is doing everything they can to open the borders. Hastert, Boehner, Blunt and the Republican House leadership passed a very tough immigration billed that was focused on addressing the security issue first and foremost.

Pres. Bush, what a doorknob. He thinks he can eradicate terrorism, but the dude can't even secure the borders. I wonder if the Bushite losers can comprehend this.

I was flogged aplenty when I was a kid. My back is used to it.
This is the most respectable thing you've posted in a while. :|

Minutemen say volunteer calls pouring in over fencing proposal

TUCSON, Ariz. Spokesmen for a border watch group say volunteer offers to help build border fencing are flooding in.

The Minuteman Civil Defense Corps has said it'll build fencing on the Mexican border unless President Bush militarizes the border and adds new security fencing.

Minuteman national leader Chris Simcox says the group has struck a chord with Americans.

Its members are conducting border operations to watch for and report illegal immigrants and smugglers entering the country.

People have offered to donate or help build a fence, have pledged equipment and say they want fencing on their land.

Simcox says landowners of some 70 miles of border property so far say they'll allow fortified fencing _ including about 15 contiguous miles in Arizona.

Simcox hopes to hold construction costs to between 125 and 150 dollars a foot.

source (http://kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=4802845&nav=HMO6)

God bless 'em. :)
This will be better than Hands Across America. :nice:

Seems to me that if they intend to build huge fence around the US, it's gonna be a huge back-breaking dirty job, and and not something anyone wants to pay for since it's a necessity, not a choice.
You might have to hire some Mexicans to do it for you.

Well, they've successfully duped the local residents into believing some sort of invasion is taking place. You have to give them credit where it's due.

Personally I think they're more interested in sitting in lawn chairs with binoculars on with a cooler while watching desperate families sweat bullets manuevering out in the fields. Maybe they can get some shooting practice in. Afterall, it's not as if the border patrol officers spend much time monitoring their activities.

I can't imagine why anyone would want a fence built by the hands of these bozos.

The GOP leadership is doing everything they can to open the borders even more. Cheap labor benefits their corporate paymasters, for the few jobs that have yet to be shipped overseas. The GOP WANTS open borders...and in all likelihood is going to get them.

Unfortunately, there is truth to this. One more reason why I'm not a Republican.

And I think the people who hire illegals just for cheap labor, exploiting them, are just as guilty as the illegals who break our laws.

Now if only the knuckle-headed people who support Republicrats and Demolicans who are for open borders would get off the golf course and wake up, that would be a good thing. :nice:

And The Minutemen wonder how they got a repuatation/image of being vigilante rednecks?:scratch:

And The Minutemen wonder how they got a repuatation/image of being vigilante rednecks?:scratch:

I dont see what they are doing is wrong. THey arent vigilantes they are doing the job that the government is supposed to doo but refuses.

What is with the redneck comment?

What is with the redneck comment?because anyone who disagrees with tt is a redneck, don't you know? the minutemen are not vigilantes. when they start shooting illegals, then they could be called vigilantes. right now they're just a national neighborhood watch.

if the shoes fits wear it

if the shoes fits wear it


Thanks . Although I dissagree with you on illegals , I did'nt want to put you on ignore . That was our Pleadge of Alleigence , yes ?


Minute men are doing nothing wrong , it's our duty to protect our borders if our leaders won't . It was a nation for the people and by the people not for the gov and by the gov . Even if it's turning into a dictatorship .

At the risk of sounding hypocritical-I'm not as concerned about the immigration as the fact that certain rights of these property owners are being compromised-it seems a lot more valid to say "I don't want these people in my back yard"

Thanks . Although I dissagree with you on illegals , I did'nt want to put you on ignore . That was our Pleadge of Alleigence , yes ?
It is okay with me if you place me ignore. Yes, it was our pledge in spanish.
Minute men are doing nothing wrong , it's our duty to protect our borders if our leaders won't . It was a nation for the people and by the people not for the gov and by the gov . Even if it's turning into a dictatorship .

I don't like the idea of a bunch of arm chair activists playing around down there with guns and bullhorns. Exactly where do they get the authority to carry on like this?

No badge, no license, no uniform, no rules to play by. The government ought to stop these guys before something happens.

They say they're acting on behalf of their countrymen, yet they give no vocal representation to those fellow americans who do not share their point of view. That doesn't sound patriotic to me.

Anyone with a lawn chair, a cooler, and a gun can take part in "saving America from an invasion". :rolleyes:

What a crock of shit.

It is okay with me if you place me ignore. Yes, it was our pledge in spanish.


I don't like the idea of a bunch of arm chair activists playing around down there with guns and bullhorns. Exactly where do they get the authority to carry on like this?

No badge, no license, no uniform, no rules to play by. The government ought to stop these guys before something happens.

They say they're acting on behalf of their countrymen, yet they give no vocal representation to those fellow americans who do not share their point of view. That doesn't sound patriotic to me.

Anyone with a lawn chair, a cooler, and a gun can take part in "saving America from an invasion". :rolleyes:

What a crock of shit.



Wht did you take it off ? Or better yet, why put in on to begin with . You want me to put you on ignore I can , I don't like to put anyone on ignore , unless they delibertly try to attack . The pledge wasn't intended for any language but english . And it is disonorable to put it in any other language .

It is okay with me if you place me ignore. Yes, it was our pledge in spanish.


I don't like the idea of a bunch of arm chair activists playing around down there with guns and bullhorns. Exactly where do they get the authority to carry on like this?

No badge, no license, no uniform, no rules to play by. The government ought to stop these guys before something happens.

They say they're acting on behalf of their countrymen, yet they give no vocal representation to those fellow americans who do not share their point of view. That doesn't sound patriotic to me.

Anyone with a lawn chair, a cooler, and a gun can take part in "saving America from an invasion". :rolleyes:

What a crock of shit.hello ignorant stereotyping.

It is okay with me if you place me ignore. Yes, it was our pledge in spanish.

And "justice for all" means that... justice. Arrest and deport. Anything other than that doesn't constitute justice.

I don't like the idea of a bunch of arm chair activists playing around down there with guns and bullhorns.

I do, so tough shit. They do the work cowards in D.C. won't or won't fund.

No badge, no license, no uniform, no rules to play by. The government ought to stop these guys before something happens.

Badges? We don't neeeed no steeeenkin' badges. Rules? What rules have they broken? The only rules broken are by illegal invaders. The only thing government is responsible for is to deport every illegal before something happens. Luckily the brave Minutemen are picking up the slack.

They say they're acting on behalf of their countrymen, yet they give no vocal representation to those fellow americans who do not share their point of view. That doesn't sound patriotic to me.

Supporting an illegal invasion isn't patriotic to me. Supporting the constitution and defending our borders is patriotic. Tough shit if you disagree.

Anyone with a lawn chair, a cooler, and a gun can take part in "saving America from an invasion". :rolleyes:

God bless 'em. Tough shit if you disagree.

What a crock of shit.

...coming out of your ears. Tough shit. Shit shit shit. You're full of it. Enough of your shitty hatred and slander.

Alan,does this mean you're supporting Hillary?:confused:

Alan,does this mean you're supporting Hillary?:confused:

No, I just posted that quote in my sig to show what a lying two-faced sack of excrement she is.

God bless them!!

Nothing against immigration in general (I'm one myself:) ) or people of certian nationality, I have no problem with people immigrating here to have a better life, but do it LEGALY, you know, like I did.

I support legal immigration and I think that it should not be as difficult to come to this country, but it's really not fair when people like me are waiting for so many years for that, while others can just run across the border.

Also, the people who hire illegals should be punished THE MOST, and it should be mentioned that while most Mexicans are definately no danger to this country...muslim radicals and terrorists could go use the mexican border to get into America and THAT'S dangerous.

You honestly thinnk she's incapable of bigotry? Not that the anti's side is implicitly bigotted-but surely you see among the responsible detractors (and I admit they're there) there are also mindless racists just spreading their hatred. There can be a bad reason to support a good thing...

hello ignorant stereotyping.

Put up or shut up.

Can you show me how the Minutemen represent the will of all american people?

And "justice for all" means that... justice. Arrest and deport. Anything other than that doesn't constitute justice.

You're a waste of my time and money. Deportation is too costly.

I do, so tough shit. They do the work cowards in D.C. won't or won't fund.
They do nothing.

Badges? We don't neeeed no steeeenkin' badges. Rules? What rules have they broken? The only rules broken are by illegal invaders. The only thing government is responsible for is to deport every illegal before something happens. Luckily the brave Minutemen are picking up the slack.

The government is not responsible for anti-hispanic bullshit. Minutemen are not holding anyone to this. They are acting in their own interests.

Supporting an illegal invasion isn't patriotic to me. Supporting the constitution and defending our borders is patriotic. Tough shit if you disagree.


Pay up dude. It's coming out of your pocket too. There is no "invasion". Exactly where does the constitution give such authority to these guys?

God bless 'em. Tough shit if you disagree.

...coming out of your ears. Tough shit. Shit shit shit. You're full of it. Enough of your shitty hatred and slander.

Likewise. I can't wait to hear more about what your heroes are about to deliver. How did they ever become worthy of such worship?

They do nothing.

if they do nothing, wtf are you so upset about?

Can you show me how the Minutemen represent the will of all american people?


They don't. No one represents the will of ALL American people. I do believe they represent the will of MOST American people, however.


The government is not responsible for anti-hispanic bullshit. Minutemen are not holding anyone to this. They are acting in their own interests.


It's not anti-hispanic to want illegal aliens deported. I think you're confusing the two. The fact that they are here illegally means that they already don't respect the rule of law. That's a problem.


Pay up dude. It's coming out of your pocket too. There is no "invasion". Exactly where does the constitution give such authority to these guys?


The part where private property is considered important. If property owners along the border want to put up a fence, that's their business, and if a group of private citizens want to stay out all night watching the border, that's also their business. They have a whole lot more right to be out there than the illegal aliens do.

There's a BIG difference between opposing illegal immigration because one hates the Mexicans and is too lazy to work anywhere as hard...and opposing ANY illegal immigrants because it's ILLEGAL, while having no problem with legal immigrants (including the ones who happen to be from Mexico).

Sure there are lazy racist bigots who just don't want Mexicans here, but it still doesn't make illegal immigration right, and if people want to come here, they can do it legally, just like my family did. I'm not gonna support giving anybody a break just because they are of certain nationality and make it a racial issue (like extreme-left does), nor am I going to hold their nationality against them either (like extreme-right does).

Maybe an illegal invader will someday pleasure the wife that Jojo won't do. :nice: < /cheap shot, so what? Jojo is a freaking liar and a slanderer on this issue and many more. >

They don't. No one represents the will of ALL American people. I do believe they represent the will of MOST American people, however.
They unofficial. They have no right to represent all the american people.
It's not anti-hispanic to want illegal aliens deported.
It's anti-hispanic to want only hispanics deported. They made a move earlier in the year to makje it appear that they were interested in the immigration coming across Canada and it was a joke.
I think you're confusing the two. The fact that they are here illegally means that they already don't respect the rule of law. That's a problem.
One that will not go away. It's called desperation. It happens. How we deal with matters just as much to us as them.
The part where private property is considered important. If property owners along the border want to put up a fence, that's their business, and if a group of private citizens want to stay out all night watching the border, that's also their business. They have a whole lot more right to be out there than the illegal aliens do.
Their right to be there doesn't change the fact they do not represent the will of the people.
Maybe an illegal invader will someday pleasure the wife that Jojo won't do. :nice: < /cheap shot, so what? Jojo is a freaking liar and a slanderer on this issue and many more. >
You can't refute can you?

There's a BIG difference between opposing illegal immigration because one hates the Mexicans and is too lazy to work anywhere as hard...and opposing ANY illegal immigrants because it's ILLEGAL, while having no problem with legal immigrants (including the ones who happen to be from Mexico).
Can you show me how the Minutemen are fairly and evenly supporting immigration policy?
Sure there are lazy racist bigots who just don't want Mexicans here, but it still doesn't make illegal immigration right, and if people want to come here, they can do it legally, just like my family did. I'm not gonna support giving anybody a break just because they are of certain nationality and make it a racial issue (like extreme-left does), nor am I going to hold their nationality against them either (like extreme-right does).
They are acting on policy on behalf of the american people without any official order and without fari representation.

Ever spent any time on the Arizona border JoJo? Imagine how terrifying it must be to have illegals, drug runners and other low lifes sneaking across your property at 3:00 am.

Can you show me how the Minutemen are fairly and evenly supporting immigration policy?

I don't give a sh!t what kind of immigration they support, just as long as they stop illegal immigration.

They have no control over LEGAL immigration, do they? The govenrment does, and unless that changes, that's irrelivant.

They are acting on policy on behalf of the american people without any official order and without fari representation.

No shit, because the president is a coke addicted redneck who doesn't know shit. He doesn't do nothing to protect the country...nobody wants some unknown illegal immigrants to be rewarded for breaking the law...you want to come here, come legally, because that's how it goes, and it doesn't matter what that idiot Bush "officially orders".

Ever spent any time on the Arizona border JoJo? Imagine how terrifying it must be to have illegals, drug runners and other low lifes sneaking across your property at 3:00 am.

You're absolutely sure all of them are "low lifes", right?

I don't give a sh!t what kind of immigration they support, just as long as they stop illegal immigration.
Do you honestly believe these clowns will stop illegal immigration? Will it amount to a valiant effort that will bring tears to the eyes of every patriot? Will these tears stop illegal immigration?
They have no control over LEGAL immigration, do they? The govenrment does, and unless that changes, that's irrelivant.
Good point. It makes sense then to question the role they are playing and wether or not it actually makes a difference, doesn't it?
No shit, because the president is a coke addicted redneck who doesn't know shit. He doesn't do nothing to protect the country...nobody wants some unknown illegal immigrants to be rewarded for breaking the law...you want to come here, come legally, because that's how it goes, and it doesn't matter what that idiot Bush "officially orders".
The president supported amnesty and a guest worker program. He supported leniency and mentioned reform. He questioned the intent and integrity of the Minutemen.

The president is right. :nice:

They unofficial. They have no right to represent all the american people.


The represent the people who support them. If the property owners along the border didn't want them there, they would have to leave. As it is, the public land belongs to the public, and they can be there because they are citizens. The illegal aliens are not, and have no right to be there.


It's anti-hispanic to want only hispanics deported. They made a move earlier in the year to makje it appear that they were interested in the immigration coming across Canada and it was a joke.


Hispanics are the vast majority of illegal aliens in the US today. That's an unfortunate fact, and recognizing it is not anti-hispanic. Everyone here illegally needs to leave.


One that will not go away. It's called desperation. It happens. How we deal with matters just as much to us as them.


Sounds like we need to export American style capitalism to Mexico and overthrow the corrupt government there.


Their right to be there doesn't change the fact they do not represent the will of the people.


And that doesn't matter. What matters is they represent the will of a great number of the people, enough that they are allowed to operate largely unmolested.


You can't refute can you? I agree. That was uncalled for.

You're absolutely sure all of them are "low lifes", right?

Crossing a fence is trespassing even when it's not posted, another law broken.

They are lowlifes the second they cross the border.

Border ranchers ought to put up illumination flares on long their perimeters so they can see the enemy coming at night.

because anyone who disagrees with tt is a redneck, don't you know?


Actually ,this is the very first time I've ever used the word "redneck" to describe The Minutemen [or even spoken about The Minutemen at DA].

Others have at DA have called The Minutemen "rednecks" at DA long before me[in fact Riz use to complain about the people who did it].

So your interpertation is incorrect.




the minutemen are not vigilantes.


They are not a legal law enforcement group,so yes,their legal status is that of vigilantes.



if the shoes fits wear it

:nice:



I don't like the idea of a bunch of arm chair activists playing around down there with guns and bullhorns. Exactly where do they get the authority to carry on like this?

No badge, no license, no uniform, no rules to play by. The government ought to stop these guys before something happens.

They say they're acting on behalf of their countrymen, yet they give no vocal representation to those fellow americans who do not share their point of view. That doesn't sound patriotic to me.

Anyone with a lawn chair, a cooler, and a gun can take part in "saving America from an invasion". :rolleyes:

What a crock of shit.
jojo is right. :nice:

hello ignorant stereotyping.

One could say exactly the same thing about your sterotypes of migrants who probably work a whole lot harder for whole lot less wage than any Minuteman does.






The government is not responsible for anti-hispanic bullshit. Minutemen are not holding anyone to this. They are acting in their own interests.



Pay up dude. It's coming out of your pocket too. There is no "invasion". Exactly where does the constitution give such authority to these guys?



Likewise. I can't wait to hear more about what your heroes are about to deliver. How did they ever become worthy of such worship?
:nice:
They don't. No one represents the will of ALL American people. I do believe they represent the will of MOST American people, however.


1.If so ,then maybe MOST American people are wrong?

2.I'm not sure your assumption is correct.

The fact is migrant workers do jobs that Americans will not do for the wages being offered[and by the way,Mexicans are Amercians,Mexico is part of the American contient after all].

You Republicans claim to be so pro buisiness [a false claim in my view],go to almost any produce grower,they'll tell you that they are losing money the way it is.

Get rid of migrants and the prices for produce will go up like the price for a gallon of gas has gone up,and I don't think that MOST Amercians do want that,they might not be happy with migrant workers ,but I'll bet you money that MOST Americans prefer Bush's solution to the price of food skyrocketing.

I think MOST Americans tolerate the current immigrant situation for financial reasons [after all,people ususally make their decisions based on their pocketbooks].



Maybe an illegal invader will someday pleasure the wife that Jojo won't do. :nice: < /cheap shot, so what? Jojo is a freaking liar and a slanderer on this issue and many more. >

jojo has never taken a cheap shot like that [and if he or I did we'd get a permaban].:not:






The president supported amnesty and a guest worker program. He supported leniency and mentioned reform. He questioned the intent and integrity of the Minutemen.

The president is right. :nice:


This is the one and only thing I think the current predient is right about.



The represent the people who support them.


The same can be said about the KKK and The Nazis,so what's your point?

Just stop labeling people TT, it gets really old. You have used the term Red Neck to put anyone down who voted for Bush before. And now you are using it to describe the Minutmen. So I guess people who care for the future of their children and their country are nothing but a bunch of racist rednecks.

There's a BIG difference between opposing illegal immigration because one hates the Mexicans and is too lazy to work anywhere as hard...and opposing ANY illegal immigrants because it's ILLEGAL, while having no problem with legal immigrants (including the ones who happen to be from Mexico).

Sure there are lazy racist bigots who just don't want Mexicans here, but it still doesn't make illegal immigration right, and if people want to come here, they can do it legally, just like my family did. I'm not gonna support giving anybody a break just because they are of certain nationality and make it a racial issue (like extreme-left does), nor am I going to hold their nationality against them either (like extreme-right does).

You know,our right-wing friends love to use the words "illegal immigrants",but when a CEO gets convicted they never use the words "illegal executive" :scratch:

So I guess people who care for the future of their children and their country are nothing but a bunch of racist rednecks.

So,you are giving me a hard time for so-called "labeling",yet you turn around and insinutate that people who oppose the Minutemen are people who don't care about the future of their children or their country.

Talk about trying to have it both ways.:rolleyes:

You know,our right-wing friends love to use the words "illegal immigrants",but when a CEO gets convicted they never use the words "illegal executive"

Well, as I said, many of the anti-illegal immigration crowd DO oppose it because it is mostly non-white immigration, as opposed to illegal.

I'm sure you understand that I'm not one of them, since I am a non-white immigrant myself...however, it still doesn't mean that illegal immigration is good for the country. Of course immigration is important, but just do it LEGALY, make it easier for people to immigrate, whatever, but illegal immigration only makes it worse on the good people who are following the law and are tyring to immigrated here legally.

1.If so ,then maybe MOST American people are wrong?

2.I'm not sure your assumption is correct.

The fact is migrant workers do jobs that Americans will not do for the wages being offered[and by the way,Mexicans are Amercians,Mexico is part of the American contient after all].

You Republicans claim to be so pro buisiness [a false claim in my view],go to almost any produce grower,they'll tell you that they are losing money the way it is.

Get rid of migrants and the prices for produce will go up like the price for a gallon of gas has gone up,and I don't think that MOST Amercians do want that,they might not be happy with migrant workers ,but I'll bet you money that MOST Americans prefer Bush's solution to the price of food skyrocketing.

I think MOST Americans tolerate the current immigrant situation for financial reasons [after all,people ususally make their decisions based on their pocketbooks].


You have some good points but if we stopped illegal immigration, maybe those businesses will start paying Americans MORE money and it will help unemployment and poverty, espeicially in inner cities and other poor areas.

Again, if we REALLY need workers and immigrants, make it easier on LEGAL immigration...but don't let people cross the border and get away with that, esepcially since some of them might be bad people, and potentially could help terrorists. Yes, big business makes GREAT money of paying those Mexicans $3 an hour, however, after working very hard for nothing, they will only become another group that lives in poverty and that creates problems. If those businesses treated the workers well, it would be a different story, but they take advantage of the fact that they are illegal...therefore, lets stop illegal immigration and only have LEGAL one, I think.

I'm sure you understand that I'm not one of them, since I am a non-white immigrant myself..


I understand and respect that,still when one lies with a dog one get more than the dog's fleas.



.however, it still doesn't mean that illegal immigration is good for the country. Of course immigration is important, but just do it LEGALY, make it easier for people to immigrate, whatever, but illegal immigration only makes it worse on the good people who are following the law and are tyring to immigrated here legally.


Look,I think we do have the right to secure our borders and I'm not saying do nothing.

But I am saying The Minutmen are not the answer,they are a bunch of reneck vigilanties who are not empowered bu the Constitution to do what they are doing,case closed.

I thnk Bush has the right idea on this and I dispise Bush.


You have some good points but if we stopped illegal immigration,


You can't stop it,that's my point.

You can control it ,that's what Bush is saying and it's the only thing he's right about.

QUOTE]
maybe those businesses will start paying Americans MORE money and it will help unemployment and poverty, espeicially in inner cities and other poor areas.
[/QUOTE]

Keep dreaming.

Jack Kemp hasd a good idea for enterprise zones in the inner cities,it was tried and business did not bite.


Again, if we REALLY need workers and immigrants, make it easier on LEGAL immigration...


No argument.



but don't let people cross the border and get away with that, esepcially since some of them might be bad people, and potentially could help terrorists.


And I said that we should secure our borders,but the Minutment are not the answer.



Yes, big business makes GREAT money of paying those Mexicans $3 an hour, however, after working very hard for nothing, they will only become another group that lives in poverty and that creates problems. If those businesses treated the workers well, it would be a different story, but they take advantage of the fact that they are illegal...therefore, lets stop illegal immigration and only have LEGAL one, I think.

Actually,it's not big businesses that hire migrants,it's small growers who are losing money the way it currently is,their concerns are legit.

I understand and respect that,still when one lies with a dog one get more than the dog's fleas.


Why should I favor illegal immigration just because some people oppose it due racist reasons? Do I HAVE to make it a racial issue (and be like the right-wing rednecks you oppose) and support illegal immigrants BECAUSE of their race? Or can I just oppose illegal immigration for ALL people and support legal immigration instead? I think so.

Look,I think we do have the right to secure our borders and I'm not saying do nothing.

But I am saying The Minutmen are not the answer,they are a bunch of reneck vigilanties who are not empowered bu the Constitution to do what they are doing,case closed.

I thnk Bush has the right idea on this and I dispise Bush.


All they want to do is secure our borders, since that idiot Bush does NOTHING.

What's wrong if we just have the kind of borders that would prevent most illegal immigration?:confused:

Also, in my opinion they should throw to jail all of those who hires illegal immigrants before punishing the immigrants.

You can't stop it,that's my point.

You can control it ,that's what Bush is saying and it's the only thing he's right about.

Ok, then make it impossible to cross the border, as they want to, and it will control illegal immigation very well. Some may still be able to cross it, but it will be VERY HARD.

And I said that we should secure our borders,but the Minutment are not the answer.

Why not? You gave me no evidence that they will make it any worse.

Actually,it's not big businesses that hire migrants,it's small growers who are losing money the way it currently is,their concerns are legit.

Well the greedy *******s better start paying people better money or otherwise they do not deserve to stay in business...there are many unemployed Americans who would work for more money, and no, there's no reason for ANYBODY to work for $3 an hour, and sooner or later Mexican immigrants WILL understand that (and that's when real problems may begin) they are being treated like shit and used by greedy businesmen (which of course represent America).

Small businesses cannot move oversea, therefore, they can't do shit about being forced to hire legal immigrants and they will end up either paying people what they deserve or lose business, and I suspect that they will chose the first one.

Well the greedy *******s better start paying people better money or otherwise they do not deserve to stay in business...there are many unemployed Americans who would work for more money, and no, there's no reason for ANYBODY to work for $3 an hour, and sooner or later Mexican immigrants WILL understand that (and that's when real problems may begin) they are being treated like shit and used by greedy businesmen (which of course represent America).

Small businesses cannot move oversea, therefore, they can't do shit about being forced to hire legal immigrants and they will end up either paying people what they deserve or lose business, and I suspect that they will chose the first one.

GF,do you want the price of the food you eat [and we all have to eat]to go up like the price of gas has?

It's Capitalism 101 that if the wage does up the price goes up.

This issue is very,very complex and simplisitc answers are not answers that solve problems.

It's pretty amazing when even the leftists here know that illegal immigration is wrong, yet a so-called 'conservative' is pro-illegal immigration. :rolleyes: :nonono:

GF,do you want the price of the food you eat [and we all have to eat]to go up like the price of gas has?


Big businesses won't be really hurt by that, therefore, I see no real proof that food's price will go up. The people who WILL lose money are the businesses who hire illegals, because now they will have to pay more money to the workers and obviously they won't compete with bigger businesses if they make food MUCH more expensive.

This issue is very,very complex and simplisitc answers are not answers that solve problems.

I still have no evidence that what those minutemen people do is really bad...even if food price goes up (and I'm not even sure about that), it solves LOTS of other problems.

So,you are giving me a hard time for so-called "labeling",yet you turn around and insinutate that people who oppose the Minutemen are people who don't care about the future of their children or their country.

Talk about trying to have it both ways.:rolleyes:

What else could it be? Tell me why you think illegal immigration should go unchecked. I suppose you havent seen its effects first hand. This is slavery all over again. Not to mention this will have horrible social effects if this continues down this path.

I dare you to try to not make any conservative, right wing demagouge statements in your next reply to me.

It's pretty amazing when even the leftists here know that illegal immigration is wrong, yet a so-called 'conservative' is pro-illegal immigration. :rolleyes: :nonono:

I find it amazing that filthy, disgusting, anti-hispanic, legalistic, Minutemen supporting leftists actually believe there is something christian or conservative about their sick agenda.

I wonder if it feels good that they are loving their neighbors as themselves.

This is the one and only thing I think the current predient is right about.

:) :nice:

I live in AZ where the illegal immigration problem is very bad. What most people don't realize is the crimes don't stop when they cross the border. Arizona leads the nation in identity theft, and car theft. SS# are stolen in order to gain employment and children in schools are getting the shaft because teachers #1 priority is to teach non-english speaking children english. The minutemen are not breaking any laws they are building the fence on private property and are doing the job the government has refused to do.

I hate to break the news to everyone crying about racism toward mexicans but trash, money and other items from all over the world including the middle east has been found in the desert along the border. Millions of people have immigrated into America LEGALLY I don't think that is too much to ask.

I find it amazing that filthy, disgusting, anti-hispanic, legalistic, Minutemen supporting leftists actually believe there is something christian or conservative about their sick agenda.

I wonder if it feels good that they are loving their neighbors as themselves.



Who is this "filthy, disgusting, anti-hispanic, legalistic, leftist" person you are talking about jojo? Do you have the cajones to ever make a direct attack, or will you forever hide behind your indirect, anonymous attacks that a few of us here know who they're meant for?

I am hispanic, jojo. And contrary to your lies, I do care about and love my neighbors in Mexico, and Latin America, that is why I plan on doing missions work in that part of the world, because I have a heart for Latin America.

And unlike you evidently, I don't want to see them EXPLOITED (like modern day slaves) in this country as they do work for rich RINO's such as yourself, for peanuts. I care about them enough to want them to come here the right way, the legal way, so they can have the same opportunities that other people have.

Is there something unChristian about wanting to give to poor people or help them in other ways rather than support lawbreaking, dishonesty and exploitation?

Is it Christian to have zero respect for the law, jojo? Because you have pretty much stated you don't care about lawbreaking. Yet you are calling me a filthy terrible Christian because I want them to come here the legal way?

jojo, I've said it to you before and I'll say it again. Get help. Stop slandering me every chance you get, and stop lying. I'm really disappointed that at one time I actually thought you were a good, genuine person.

to jojo everyone who disagrees with him is filthy and disgusting, just like everyone who disagrees with him is a redneck to tt...

Retards say vigilante, when it's actually no different conceptually than citizens arrest.

Big businesses won't be really hurt by that, therefore, I see no real proof that food's price will go up. The people who WILL lose money are the businesses who hire illegals, because now they will have to pay more money to the workers and obviously they won't compete with bigger businesses if they make food MUCH more expensive.


This statment tells me a few things about you:

1.You have never lived in a state where produce is a major part of the state's income.

2.You have never been in business [especially small business].

I repeat : These growers are not big business,they are small business who are already losing money the way it is,force them to hire people at bigger wages,the prices will go up.


Do you drive GF?

Do you buy gas?


What has happend to gas prices is what can [and very likely will] happen to food prices if we take the knee-jerk ,right-wing,reactioanry approach to this issue .

If you don't get that ,then you don't get captialism.

You are being idealistic and that's fine,I beleive in idealsim too ,but that idelaism has got to be tempered with pragmatism as well and I see no pragamtism from you in regards to this issue.

You should get this because music is a business too.




I still have no evidence that what those minutemen people do is really bad...


Key members of the Minutemen have links with racist groups such as The National Alliance and The Council Of Conservative Citizens www.cofcc.org,I'd call that bad.


even if food price goes up (and I'm not even sure about that), it solves LOTS of other problems.


Vigilantes are no solution to anything.:not:

What else could it be? Tell me why you think illegal immigration should go unchecked.


I didn't say it shouldn't,I just don't think putting up our version of The Berlin Wall is good answer [it makes us look no better the Russians did putting up the Berlin Wall].



I suppose you havent seen its effects first hand.


You supposition is wrong.

I've known legal and illgeal immgrants from Mexico.



This is slavery all over again.



Totoal bullshit ,the slaves had no choice .:nonono:

Not to mention this will have horrible social effects if this continues down this path.


What do you mean by "horrible social effects"?


I dare you to try to not make any conservative, right wing demagouge statements in your next reply to me.

Why are you ashamed to admit your conservative leanings?

I find it amazing that filthy, disgusting, anti-hispanic, legalistic, Minutemen supporting leftists actually believe there is something christian or conservative about their sick agenda.


jojo is right.:nice:






I am hispanic, jojo. And contrary to your lies, I do care about and love my neighbors in Mexico, and Latin America, that is why I plan on doing missions work in that part of the world, because I have a heart for Latin America.

And unlike you evidently, I don't want to see them EXPLOITED (like modern day slaves) in this country as they do work for rich RINO's such as yourself, for peanuts. I care about them enough to want them to come here the right way, the legal way, so they can have the same opportunities that other people have.

Is there something unChristian about wanting to give to poor people or help them in other ways rather than support lawbreaking, dishonesty and exploitation?

Is it Christian to have zero respect for the law, jojo? Because you have pretty much stated you don't care about lawbreaking. Yet you are calling me a filthy terrible Christian because I want them to come here the legal way?

jojo, I've said it to you before and I'll say it again. Get help. Stop slandering me every chance you get, and stop lying. I'm really disappointed that at one time I actually thought you were a good, genuine person.
Once again you are being patronizing and condecending to someone only because he disagrees with you.:not:





just like everyone who disagrees with him is a redneck to tt...

I do apologise for that and I take back using the word "redenck",while it's definition seems to be open to debate,it still is a derogtory word and I shouldn't have used it.

However,I take back nothing else I've said in this thread.

Big businesses won't be really hurt by that, therefore, I see no real proof that food's price will go up. The people who WILL lose money are the businesses who hire illegals, because now they will have to pay more money to the workers and obviously they won't compete with bigger businesses if they make food MUCH more expensive.


This statment tells me a few things about you:

1.You have never lived in a state where produce is a major part of the state's income.

2.You have never been in business [especially small business].

I repeat : These growers are not big business,they are small business who are already losing money the way it is,force them to hire people at bigger wages,the prices will go up.


Do you drive GF?

Do you buy gas?


What has happend to gas prices is what can [and very likely will] happen to food prices if we take the knee-jerk ,right-wing,reactioanry approach to this issue .

If you don't get that ,then you don't get captialism.

You are being idealistic and that's fine,I beleive in idealsim too ,but that idelaism has got to be tempered with pragmatism as well and I see no pragamtism from you in regards to this issue.

You should get this because music is a business too.




I still have no evidence that what those minutemen people do is really bad...


Key members of the Minutemen have links with racist groups such as The National Alliance and The Council Of Conservative Citizens www.cofcc.org,I'd call that bad.


even if food price goes up (and I'm not even sure about that), it solves LOTS of other problems.


Vigilantes are no solution to anything.:not:

What else could it be? Tell me why you think illegal immigration should go unchecked.


I didn't say it shouldn't,I just don't think putting up our version of The Berlin Wall is good answer [it makes us look no better the Russians did putting up the Berlin Wall].



I suppose you havent seen its effects first hand.


You supposition is wrong.

I've known legal and illgeal immgrants from Mexico.



This is slavery all over again.



Totoal bullshit ,the slaves had no choice .:nonono:

Not to mention this will have horrible social effects if this continues down this path.


What do you mean by "horrible social effects"?


I dare you to try to not make any conservative, right wing demagouge statements in your next reply to me.

Why are you ashamed to admit your conservative leanings?

I find it amazing that filthy, disgusting, anti-hispanic, legalistic, Minutemen supporting leftists actually believe there is something christian or conservative about their sick agenda.


jojo is right.:nice:






I am hispanic, jojo. And contrary to your lies, I do care about and love my neighbors in Mexico, and Latin America, that is why I plan on doing missions work in that part of the world, because I have a heart for Latin America.

And unlike you evidently, I don't want to see them EXPLOITED (like modern day slaves) in this country as they do work for rich RINO's such as yourself, for peanuts. I care about them enough to want them to come here the right way, the legal way, so they can have the same opportunities that other people have.

Is there something unChristian about wanting to give to poor people or help them in other ways rather than support lawbreaking, dishonesty and exploitation?

Is it Christian to have zero respect for the law, jojo? Because you have pretty much stated you don't care about lawbreaking. Yet you are calling me a filthy terrible Christian because I want them to come here the legal way?

jojo, I've said it to you before and I'll say it again. Get help. Stop slandering me every chance you get, and stop lying. I'm really disappointed that at one time I actually thought you were a good, genuine person.
Once again you are being patronizing and condecending to someone only because he disagrees with you.:not:





just like everyone who disagrees with him is a redneck to tt...

I do apologise for that and I take back using the word "redenck",while it's definition seems to be open to debate,it still is a derogatory word and I shouldn't have used it.

However,I take back nothing else I've said in this thread.

I do apologise for that and I take back using the word "redenck",while it's definition seems to be open to debate,it still is a derogtory word and I shouldn't have used it.:eek3: wow. i'm impressed, and appreciate your efforts. :nice:

Once again you are being patronizing and condecending to someone only because he disagrees with you.:not:

I can't believe that you don't even blink an eye when jojo calls someone here (we all know who he's aiming his fiery darts at) a "filthy, disgusting, anti-hispanic, legalistic, Minutemen supporting leftists" and then goes on to slander them more by implying they're not a Christian.... (because instead of supporting lawbreaking I support giving and helping the poor in legal ways)

And then you turn around and bash me for my post? Is lying and slandering people ok in your book? Or do you agree with all those vicious names he called me, "filthy, disgusting" etc, etc? My post to him was polite, considering what I've dealt with with him for the last couple years... constant baiting, personal attacks, slander, and games that I don't want to be a part of.

Read his post to me, and then re-read my post to him. I wasn't the one that used a string of name-calling and vicious slanders. Let's revisit reality here.

I repeat : These growers are not big business,they are small business who are already losing money the way it is,force them to hire people at bigger wages,the prices will go up.

Ever heard of minimmum wage? It's there for a reason.

Do you drive GF?

Do you buy gas?


What has happend to gas prices is what can [and very likely will] happen to food prices if we take the knee-jerk ,right-wing,reactioanry approach to this issue .

Even assuming that you're right about that, and I'm not sure that with economy it's always THAT simple, there's still could be MUCH worse if illegal immigration doesn't stop.

Not ALL food prices will go up, and I could live with paying more for food. America didn't always have illegal immigration and yet people were able to eat, right, so I'm sure it will work itself out, esepcially if there's less poor people in the country (and illegal immigrants are mostly very poor and are likely to stay poor forever the way they are treated here). You legalize them? They will either demand to get payed like they should (and will be right to do so from moral point of view) and then the small businesses lose, or they will get on welfare since it's NO LESS money than if they worked hard illegaly (and that will be a smart move of them), but it will **** up the country's economy even worse than any increase in gas or food prices.

Key members of the Minutemen have links with racist groups such as The National Alliance and The Council Of Conservative Citizens www.cofcc.org,I'd call that bad.

1. Evidence?

2. Even if they do, their cause of stopping illegal immigration is still right. There's no need for people to illegaly enter the country and then just suddenly become Americans. I'm an immigrant, I didn't do it and neither should they, it's THAT simple.

Vigilantes are no solution to anything.

Hey, the fact is, it's their private property and they can build or do WHATEVER, and they have every right to prevent anybody to enter this country through their property if they do not believe it is right for the country.

I didn't say it shouldn't,I just don't think putting up our version of The Berlin Wall is good answer [it makes us look no better the Russians did putting up the Berlin Wall].

Well, nobody is saying "DON'T EVER COME", just do it LEGALY, if they don't break the law and do what every normal immigrant would do, that border wouldn't matter, would it now?

I can't believe that you don't even blink an eye when jojo calls someone here (we all know who he's aiming his fiery darts at) a "filthy, disgusting, anti-hispanic, legalistic, Minutemen supporting leftists" and then goes on to slander them more by implying they're not a Christian.... (because instead of supporting lawbreaking I support giving and helping the poor in legal ways)

My fiery darts were like yours, not aimed at anyone in particular. I didn't use your name. I didn't direct the comment at you. And before you begin calling me a liar maybe you should try reading your own material.

If I were on the same side of the issue as Snouter, we might resemble one another. Ok, maybe not. :p

If you took it personally maybe it's your problem.

I've not seen you post against the likes of other here who use similiar language.

Stop singling me out, will ya?

For the sake of peace you're on my ignore list forever.

Say whatever you want to say about me. I just don't give a damn anymore.

:eek3: wow. i'm impressed, and appreciate your efforts. :nice:

Hes trying to be nice. Give him a break why don't ya.

to jojo everyone who disagrees with him is filthy and disgusting, just like everyone who disagrees with him is a redneck to tt...

I'd say everyone if I meant everyone.

My fiery darts were like yours, not aimed at anyone in particular. I didn't use your name. I didn't direct the comment at you. And before you begin calling me a liar maybe you should try reading your own material.

If I were on the same side of the issue as Snouter, we might resemble one another. Ok, maybe not. :p

If you took it personally maybe it's your problem.

I've not seen you post against the likes of other here who use similiar language.

Stop singling me out, will ya?

For the sake of peace you're on my ignore list forever.

Say whatever you want to say about me. I just don't give a damn anymore.

Hello? You replied to a post of mine, you answered me, and then after your indirect attack (on people with my view on this, which guess what? includes me) you threw in the Christian and conservative comment. I'm a Christian and a conservative, so even though you want to hide behind anonymous attacks, as a Christian and conservative, I'm included in your vicious indirect attack. Unless you were talking about all other Christians except for me? If so, then in your reply to me it might've been good to say "this post wasn't aimed at you, even though you're a Christian and conservative."

One thing I gotta give to ya. In terms of being a sneaky weasel, you're good. Really, really good. This is why you've been able to get away with so much around here, because you almost never attack people directly, it's always your anonymous, indirect "I wan't aiming it at anyone in particular" faux-innocence antics. Something to be real proud of there. :nonono:



and from earlier...

...believe there is something christian or conservative about their sick agenda.

I'm really curious about what my "sick agenda" is. jojo, what is sick about wanting to help people without encouraging them to disregard our laws? What is sick about wanting to give to people and go to Latin America to do humanitarian work instead of encouraging exploitation as they work illegally as some rich person makes a profit from very cheap labor? What is sick about not wanting people to live in fear because they're breaking a number of laws by being here?

Hes trying to be nice. Give him a break why don't ya.i did. i was being genuine.

Ever heard of minimmum wage? It's there for a reason.


Idealism without pragmatism.



Even assuming that you're right about that, and I'm not sure that with economy it's always THAT simple, there's still could be MUCH worse if illegal immigration doesn't stop.


And I'm saying [b] YOU CAN"T STOP IT[b] you can only control it and I don't see the Minutemen as having a plan that is workable or fair .

I do think we have the right to control our borders,but I also think we have to be humane in doing so,I see nothing humane about the Minutemen,just racial scapegoating.

Buish has the right plan with Guest Worker visas and if they obey the laws etc. eventual citizenship.

I also think that if you don't want people coming over the boarder you improve the conditions where they they live so that won't happen.

I mean people don't undergo the hardship Mexican immigrants [and I've known both legal and illegal immigrants from Mexico]go through if things weren't really bad down there [just like I'm sure it was hard for your family to leave first the Ukrane then Isreal].

You don't solve problems by degrading and marginalizing people,I see the Minutemen as racist,xenophobic,jingoistc ,vigilantic and derogatory.




Not ALL food prices will go up,


Produce will [and I'm a vegetarian].


and I could live with paying more for food.


You don't speak for most people [especially adults struggling in the real world].:nonono:

America didn't always have illegal immigration


Yes it has.


and yet people were able to eat, right, so I'm sure it will work itself out,


Good Gawd ,that's dream world talk.:nonono:




1. Evidence?


It's all over the 'net.




Hello? You replied to a post of mine, you answered me, and then after your indirect attack (on people with my view on this, which guess what? includes me) you threw in the Christian and conservative comment. I'm a Christian and a conservative, so even though you want to hide behind anonymous attacks, as a Christian and conservative, I'm included in your vicious indirect attack. Unless you were talking about all other Christians except for me? If so, then in your reply to me it might've been good to say "this post wasn't aimed at you, even though you're a Christian and conservative."

One thing I gotta give to ya. In terms of being a sneaky weasel, you're good. Really, really good. This is why you've been able to get away with so much around here, because you almost never attack people directly, it's always your anonymous, indirect "I wan't aiming it at anyone in particular" faux-innocence antics. Something to be real proud of there. :nonono:



and from earlier...



I'm really curious about what my "sick agenda" is. jojo, what is sick about wanting to help people without encouraging them to disregard our laws? What is sick about wanting to give to people and go to Latin America to do humanitarian work instead of encouraging exploitation as they work illegally as some rich person makes a profit from very cheap labor? What is sick about not wanting people to live in fear because they're breaking a number of laws by being here?


As one who has been on your receveing end I can say that you don't let it go ,you do patronize and condecsend people who disagree with you and do so only because they disagree with you.

Just let it go buttercup,please let it go. :nonono:

Idealism without pragmatism.


You didn't answer my question...if we're gonna go with "pure capitalism", which ironically a liberal like you suggests...why do we even need minimmum wage? I mean, if you were a hardcore libertarian, I'd see your point, but it's weird.

If some small businesses can't pay people what they need to pay by the law...then it's too bad, I'm not sorry for them. I'd rather solve illegal immigration problem and save this country from MUCH bigger problems than care about some greedy *******s who want to use Mexican immigrants to make extra-money.

And I'm saying [b] YOU CAN"T STOP IT[b] you can only control it and I don't see the Minutemen as having a plan that is workable or fair .

You can't completely stop it, just like you can't stop murder or rape, but you can LIMIT them, and that's what they are doing, and if they stop even ONE illegal immigrant, that's already better than nothing.

Besides, that's their private property, they can do what they want on it, so it IS a fair game, especially if you're talking capitalism. If they want to illegaly cross the border, they can do it on the property of people who are cool with that idea at least:rolleyes: .

I do think we have the right to control our borders,but I also think we have to be humane in doing so,I see nothing humane about the Minutemen,just racial scapegoating.


1. Then how SHOULD we control it?:confused: This is bad, that is bad...so what's good? Tell me: How are we going to prevent them from NOT comming, unless there is a border?:confused:

2. I don't give a shit who are the minutemen and what their racial problems are, if they help controlling illegal immigration by using their private property then more power to them. I don't care about who's Mexican, White, Black, Jewish or whatever...if you are illegal you are ILLEGAL.

Buish has the right plan with Guest Worker visas and if they obey the laws etc. eventual citizenship.

And after they are citizens they will HAVE to get payed the right wages, therefore it will **** small businesses just as bad as what you claim could happen now and the food price will go up, right?

Unless you feel that there should be a racial law about paying Mexicans less...but then it will be REALLY bad for everybody:rolleyes: . This plan can HARDLY work.

I also think that if you don't want people coming over the boarder you improve the conditions where they they live so that won't happen.

That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a while. If I have a nice house and somebody doesn't live well in their house, I'm not responsible to improve his conditions or else accept him breaking into my house and live there, I don't have to do shit.

America doesn't have to do shit for anybody, they don't owe any country anything. I don't expect Mexico to help improving American conditions, therefore why should America improve their conditions. Have a border, don't let them come illegaly, and the good guys from Mexico who really want to come here can do it the legal way, just like my family. That's very simple.

I mean people don't undergo the hardship Mexican immigrants [and I've known both legal and illegal immigrants from Mexico]go through if things weren't really bad down there

There are many bad places in the world...why should America be responsible for all of them? We got our own problems and WAYY too many already...they can have better life out there, damn it, they are people just like us, you know, and I believe they can do it without Uncle Sam.

Again, you don't like it in Mexico, then go to America the LEGAL way, or make your life better somewhere else, but DON'T break laws like that:nonono: .

just like I'm sure it was hard for your family to leave first the Ukrane then Isreal].


YES, and that's the whole point. We had REAL hard times, but we also came here LEGALY. You see, we didn't cross the border illegaly, my dad worked his ass off to get a job here, then to stay here, and even now all the problems aren't 100% solved for us. Is that fair?:confused: Why should they get rewarded for their crime, while people like me should sit here and pray for uncle sam to finaly accept us, just because we didn't break no laws?:nonono:

Also, you overlook the fact that not ONLY Mexicans can (and have) cross the border. Muslim radicals and terrorists can do it too, you know...do you want them here?:confused: I personally always had little trouble with illegal immigration, but I admit that in the past I didn't really care that much because I thought that it was only people from Mexico and most of them are not dangerous. I don't wanna risk having deadly weapons from mid-east in this country, no way:nonono: .

Produce will [and I'm a vegetarian].

Somebody always picked up the tomatoes, oranges and apples way before Mexican immigration, and somebody always will.

Again, I don't mind those people comming here, but do it legally, and if they do it legally, they will also be treated much better, so it's overall good for EVERYBODY.

You don't speak for most people [especially adults struggling in the real world].

UMMM...excuse me, but I'm a 21 year old struggling musician...have you ever made a living with music...if you did, you wouldn't think it was this simple:nonono: .

Telling me that food price may go up is still not enough reason for me to support not enforcing immigration laws, minimmum wage laws and private property laws...not to mention a future racial conflict (you know damn well that the businesses that pay Mexicans $3 an hour wouldn't be thrilled about paying them more anytime in the future, therefore that will be a problem), and of course a possible terrorist threat.

You didn't answer my question


I did ,you either didn't get my answer or like it,but I did give an asnwer.


...if we're gonna go with "pure capitalism", which ironically a liberal like you suggests...why do we even need minimmum wage? I mean, if you were a hardcore libertarian, I'd see your point, but it's weird.


I'm in favor of of minumum wage,fair wage ,unions [I come from a union family,though I've never had a union job in my life and I probably never will,I'm still not anti-union]but I also see the complexities of this individual situation,you obviously can't see the complexities to this stiutation no matter how hard I try to explain it to you,that tells me you just aren't going to get it,no matter what I say.

There are exceptions to every single rule and this situation is one of those exceptions


if they stop even ONE illegal immigrant, that's already better than nothing.


Bullshit.

Besides, that's their private property,


Hmmmm,I'm not too sure about that,a recent Supreme Court ruling might put that claim into question.

1. Then how SHOULD we control it?:confused: This is bad, that is bad...so what's good? Tell me: How are we going to prevent them from NOT comming, unless there is a border?:confused:


I've already said how to,Guest Worker visas [makes things easier to control],eventual citizenship [and not at the expense of people like you or your family] and bettering conditions in Mexico.


2. I don't give a shit who are the minutemen and what their racial problems are,


Well I do.:mad:



if they help controlling illegal immigration by using their private property then more power to them. I don't care about who's Mexican, White, Black, Jewish or whatever...if you are illegal you are ILLEGAL.


Once again,when an executive is convicted these same people don't say "Illegal executives",and I know the reason why they don't.:mad:


That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a while. If I have a nice house and somebody doesn't live well in their house, I'm not responsible to improve his conditions or else accept him breaking into my house and live there, I don't have to do shit.


That's very myopic.

I watch the TV show Boston Legal,Willaim Shatner plays a guy who [amongst other things] espouses some of the attitudes you have espoused in this thread,James Spader plays a guy who [for better or worse] espouses some of the attitudes I have espoused in this thread.

On one episode Shatner asked him "Why do you care so much about the poor?" Spader told him "If we don't help them,they'll steal all our stuff",my reasons for my attitude are more complex that that [rooted in my childhood,as I get the idea what you are saying is rooted in your childhood as well].

Anwyay,Shatner got that point because that is the way adults on their own for a long time think.

Let's have you on your own for many years,having traveled many places and met many people [hopefully with an open mind] then we'll see what you say.

I'll bet ten years you'll look at this and won't believe you said at least some of the things you've said here.


YES, and that's the whole point. We had REAL hard times, but we also came here LEGALY. You see, we didn't cross the border illegaly, my dad worked his ass off to get a job here, then to stay here, and even now all the problems aren't 100% solved for us. Is that fair?:confused: Why should they get rewarded for their crime, while people like me should sit here and pray for uncle sam to finaly accept us, just because we didn't break no laws?:nonono:


Come on GF,you have broken laws since you've been in this country [nothing major I mght add,but I don't think most peole from Mexico have broken any major laws either].


Also, you overlook the fact that not ONLY Mexicans can (and have) cross the border. Muslim radicals and terrorists can do it too, you know...do you want them here?:confused: I personally always had little trouble with illegal immigration, but I admit that in the past I didn't really care that much because I thought that it was only people from Mexico and most of them are not dangerous. I don't wanna risk having deadly weapons from mid-east in this country, no way:nonono: .


Legit issue,but the Minutemen have no solution for that.

If you build a bigger mousetrap the mouse [in this case terrorists] are sophisticated enough to find a way the mousetrap.


If terrorists can't come in through the Mexcian border,then they'll come in through the Canadian border,if they can't do that they'll find another way to get in.


Somebody always picked up the tomatoes, oranges and apples way before Mexican immigration, and somebody always will.


When do you think "Mexican immigration" started?

Immigrants from Mexico have always done this work.


Again, I don't mind those people comming here, but do it legally, and if they do it legally, they will also be treated much better, so it's overall good for EVERYBODY.


And [and Bush -and I otherwise dispise Bush-] are saying the same thing,we are saying change the system so they can work and have eventual citizenship.


UMMM...excuse me, but I'm a 21 year old struggling musician...have you ever made a living with music...if you did, you wouldn't think it was this simple:nonono: .


1. You are still in college.

2.It's not the same as being an older person struggling in almost any profession[including music].

i did. i was being genuine.

fair enough man. ;)

I do think we have the right to control our borders,but I also think we have to be humane in doing so,I see nothing humane about the Minutemen,just racial scapegoating.

I agree completely. They have clearly failed to focus on the policy, and instead have fallen into a political agenda. They have failed to represent the american people too.

Buish has the right plan with Guest Worker visas and if they obey the laws etc. eventual citizenship.

He's leading the country in the only right direction.

I also think that if you don't want people coming over the boarder you improve the conditions where they they live so that won't happen.

And if is truly not Americas problem what occurs in Mexico, then it shouldn't matter why anyone attempts to come into the country.

I mean people don't undergo the hardship Mexican immigrants [and I've known both legal and illegal immigrants from Mexico]go through if things weren't really bad down there [just like I'm sure it was hard for your family to leave first the Ukrane then Isreal].

Mexicans are being singled out in the court of public opinion, thanks to the valiant efforts of so called patriots like Tom Tancredo. Tancredo is a one issue politician who would sell his soul to get ahead in Washington. He's untalented and coarse, just like the people of Littleton Colorado who support him. He's been properly rejected by the white house. When the issue is no longer present in the public eye Tom will be out of sight.

You don't solve problems by degrading and marginalizing people,I see the Minutemen as racist,xenophobic,jingoistc ,vigilantic and derogatory.

Nor do you solve all problems by enforcing laws that fail.

To what extreme will the anti-hispanic "patriots" go?

The law also supports treating these people with respect.

Minutemen do not have any official authority to represent the american people. They have no badge, no office, nothing. Their voice is their own, and noone elses.

Thanks TT. For sticking to your guns.

I'm in favor of of minumum wage,fair wage ,unions [I come from a union family,though I've never had a union job in my life and I probably never will,I'm still not anti-union]but I also see the complexities of this individual situation,you obviously can't see the complexities to this stiutation no matter how hard I try to explain it to you,that tells me you just aren't going to get it,no matter what I say.

There are exceptions to every single rule and this situation is one of those exceptions

So tell me why is that situation an exception? Why should those people break the minimum wage laws while others shouldn't?

Hmmmm,I'm not too sure about that,a recent Supreme Court ruling might put that claim into question.

What if it IS their private property? Would you support their right to do whatever then?

I've already said how to,Guest Worker visas [makes things easier to control],eventual citizenship [and not at the expense of people like you or your family] and bettering conditions in Mexico.

Better conditions in Mexico? I'm sorry but I'm still waiting for an explaniation why is it America's job to do it.

Once again,when an executive is convicted these same people don't say "Illegal executives",and I know the reason why they don't.

Whatever, it's not my problem what they think and why they think so.

That's very myopic.

I watch the TV show Boston Legal,Willaim Shatner plays a guy who [amongst other things] espouses some of the attitudes you have espoused in this thread,James Spader plays a guy who [for better or worse] espouses some of the attitudes I have espoused in this thread.

On one episode Shatner asked him "Why do you care so much about the poor?" Spader told him "If we don't help them,they'll steal all our stuff",my reasons for my attitude are more complex that that [rooted in my childhood,as I get the idea what you are saying is rooted in your childhood as well].

Anwyay,Shatner got that point because that is the way adults on their own for a long time think.

Let's have you on your own for many years,having traveled many places and met many people [hopefully with an open mind] then we'll see what you say.

I'll bet ten years you'll look at this and won't believe you said at least some of the things you've said here.

So should we reward people for the fact that if we don't they might commit a crime against us? Well, no thanks, that's not how it works with me:nonono: .

Come on GF,you have broken laws since you've been in this country [nothing major I mght add,but I don't think most peole from Mexico have broken any major laws either].

1. I payed for it too whenever I got caught and had to go through a lot of shit because of that, life isn't that easy for me either:rolleyes: .

2. Nobody could ever be in danger because I smoke a joint or drink a beer before I'm 21. Open borders and illegal immigration can be a potential threat to this country, and that's a fact.

3. I have no doubt that most of them could be decent people...the few that are NOT are the problem and we can never find them like that because they all come illegaly, you know.

4. If they come here legally, they may smoke all the marijuana and drink all the alcohol as far as I'm concerned.

Legit issue,but the Minutemen have no solution for that.

If you build a bigger mousetrap the mouse [in this case terrorists] are sophisticated enough to find a way the mousetrap.


If terrorists can't come in through the Mexcian border,then they'll come in through the Canadian border,if they can't do that they'll find another way to get in.



It's better to make it harder on them though , you know.

And [and Bush -and I otherwise dispise Bush-] are saying the same thing,we are saying change the system so they can work and have eventual citizenship.

But if they get a citizenship, won't it **** the economy or food prices or small businesses? You said it, not me.

Idealism without pragmatism.




And I'm saying [b] YOU CAN"T STOP IT[b] you can only control it and I don't see the Minutemen as having a plan that is workable or fair .

I do think we have the right to control our borders,but I also think we have to be humane in doing so,I see nothing humane about the Minutemen,just racial scapegoating.

Buish has the right plan with Guest Worker visas and if they obey the laws etc. eventual citizenship.

I also think that if you don't want people coming over the boarder you improve the conditions where they they live so that won't happen.

I mean people don't undergo the hardship Mexican immigrants [and I've known both legal and illegal immigrants from Mexico]go through if things weren't really bad down there [just like I'm sure it was hard for your family to leave first the Ukrane then Isreal].

You don't solve problems by degrading and marginalizing people,I see the Minutemen as racist,xenophobic,jingoistc ,vigilantic and derogatory.




Produce will [and I'm a vegetarian].



You don't speak for most people [especially adults struggling in the real world].:nonono:


Yes it has.



Good Gawd ,that's dream world talk.:nonono:




It's all over the 'net.







As one who has been on your receveing end I can say that you don't let it go ,you do patronize and condecsend people who disagree with you and do so only because they disagree with you.

Just let it go buttercup,please let it go. :nonono:


The way you see the Minutemen is a good thing compared to the way I see the traitors and crimminals who don't honor the Minutemen for their bravery, patriotism and loyalty . God Bless the Minutemen and the nation they protect ! :nice:

So tell me why is that situation an exception? Why should those people break the minimum wage laws while others shouldn't?


Because no one else in this country [including you]would do these jobs anyway.

These are not cushy jobs.


What if it IS their private property? Would you support their right to do whatever then?


I don't know,I don't think that people have the right to do any damn thing they want no matter what.



Better conditions in Mexico? I'm sorry but I'm still waiting for an explaniation why is it America's job to do it.


1.It's the right thing to do[I guess I'm old-fashoined that way].

2.We created many of the problems in the first place and you could aruge this sitaution is [as Malcolm X would put it] "The chickens coming home to roost".


Whatever, it's not my problem what they think and why they think so.


So,only your problems count.:(

I can't be like that.


So should we reward people for the fact that if we don't they might commit a crime against us? Well, no thanks, that's not how it works with me:nonono: .


I'll bet you'll change that attitude ten years from now.


1. I payed for it too whenever I got caught and had to go through a lot of shit because of that, life isn't that easy for me either:rolleyes: .


It's too bad you can't see that these people you are being xenophobic about are in the same boat [no pun intended] with you.

I'll bet ten years from now you won't believe you said that.




2. Nobody could ever be in danger because I smoke a joint or drink a beer before I'm 21. Open borders and illegal immigration can be a potential threat to this country, and that's a fact.


They word is potential,not actual.





But if they get a citizenship, won't it **** the economy or food prices or small businesses? You said it, not me.


You're taking what I said out of context.


I think we've reached an impasse,I have no more to add,you either don't get what I said or you reject what I've said,either way if we going on we'll just be going around in circles.

Unless you have a new point[s] to bring up I'm going to stop this.

Thanks TT. For sticking to your guns.

And I thank you for your kind words.

The way you see the Minutemen is a good thing compared to the way I see the traitors and crimminals who don't honor the Minutemen for their bravery, patriotism and loyalty .

:lol:


God Bless the Minutemen and the nation they protect ! :nice:


1.My God is not a bigot.

2.Sitting on a lawnchair yelling from a bullhorn protects no person or nothing else.

The minutemen are not bigots. I refuse to fall for the excuse that Mexicans will do the jobs Americans wont do. We have done it in the past and we would do it future if the wages are livable. Before I got my office job, I worked demolition. It was dirty and it was dangerous and I didnt mind it much. But I guess its OK for wage supression due to the flood of illegals in this country.

Everybody has lost their mind in America with the whole gas and immigrant issue.

If more than 40% of yankees think like riz then I've been seriously incorrect with my yankee stereotypes.

If more than 40% of yankees think like riz then I've been seriously incorrect with my yankee stereotypes.

There are alot more like me up here in Yankeeville. All is not lost, dude. :nice:

Real New Yorkers welcome immigrants.

America - if you can make it here you can make it anywhere. :)

America - if you can make it here you can make it anywhere. :)and don't worry if you can't, we'll be glad to support your ass the rest of your life anyway. :nice:

and don't worry if you can't, we'll be glad to support your ass the rest of your life anyway. :nice:

well said :nice:

1.My God is not a bigot.

2.Sitting on a lawnchair yelling from a bullhorn protects no person or nothing else.

:nonono: It makes my stomach turn that you (and another leftist here) keep playing the race card, and making this into a race thing when you guys have been told numerous times that this is not about race or being anti- immigration.

I've said if before but I'll say it again (and I know that a huge number of Americans agree with me on this) I'm all for immigration. My Mom and all my relatives on my mom's side are immigrants from Ecuador. Pretty much everyone in this country is the son/daughter, grandchild, or great grandchild of immigrants, and that is what this country is all about.... People come here from all over the world, because they love this country, and seek a better life. But they come here legally. Most people I know, myself included are all for legal immigration.

But illegal immigration is NOT something to be supported, especially at a time when there are so many America-haters out there who don't have our best interests at heart, the borders need to be secure. Not only that, but why should millions of people all over the world wait many years to come here and do things the legal way, while others thumb their nose at our laws, many times break more laws in order to stay here (taking on false identities) and then are rewarded for it? Why do you reward breaking the law?

Once again (and I'm sure this will have to be repeated 20,000 more times and probably still will not sink in for certain people) stop playing the red-herring race card. If people come here legally, and have an alliegance to this country, and become American citizens, it doesn't matter what color their skin is or where they are from. And if they break the law, it doesn't matter what color their skin is, it should not be encouraged. This is not a country of white people, it's a smorgasbord of all different ethnic backgrounds, but the one thing we have in common is an alliegance or love for this country. Someone who starts off thumbing their nose at our laws, knowingly breaking the law does not show any respect and do we want people who see nothing wrong with breaking the law?

I only ask you now to respond to the points I made, instead of coming back with a one-liner like you usually do, and ignoring what I've said.

I also think it's ironic that TT is agreeing with the rich globalist Bush, who is an open-border person also. Many of the RINO Republicans turn a blind eye to illegal immigration because of the very cheap labor, and it's amazing to me that a few leftists here see no problem with that exploitation. (the new plantation) I also think people of Bush's ilk support open borders for other, more nefarious reasons, but that's a topic for another thread.

Real New Yorkers welcome immigrants.

America - if you can make it here you can make it anywhere. :)


These aren't people coming from a first world country through Ellis Island anymore, these are third worlders coming in illegally, what more needs to be said?

Filthy, disgusting, self righteous, anti-hispanic leftists threatening the president of the United States.

They should be taken out and flogged.
Even Bush can't stand these guys. Its pretty laughable.

These Minutemen are all a bunch of imbiciles. Kind of like the Militia people. The good news is they are making themselves look stupid. I recall when they went to Home Depot near my house because they said it was a gathering place for day workers and (according to them) illegal aliens. When they got there there were actually more people protesting them being there. In fact these so called patriots were outnumbered ten to one. The IWW, a union I belong to, had a big presence there.

I also think it's ironic that TT is agreeing with the rich globalist Bush, who is an open-border person also. Many of the RINO Republicans turn a blind eye to illegal immigration because of the very cheap labor, and it's amazing to me that a few leftists here see no problem with that exploitation. (the new plantation) I also think people of Bush's ilk support open borders for other, more nefarious reasons, but that's a topic for another thread.
Hmmm... when he talks about GAWD and Kuntry.. he is God's Elect on Earth, the most holy and high El Presidente George W Bush and when he is talking about immigration in this case he is the "rich globalist Bush". Well Bush turns this leftist's stomach. But in Dubya's case he is seeing the immigrants as a labor force to be exploited and used. People like my, on the other hand see immigrants as human beings.

If your family is from Ecuadore than you really should have more sympathy for these people. They are fleeing poverty and exploitation. In most cases they find more poverty and exploitation here. But can you blame any of them? I have visited Mexico before and I can tell you, I would not want to live like the common people there. And its a shame because I found that most Mexicans are kind, gentle, hospitible people who work hard, are religious, family oriented and would if given the chance, make excellent US citizens.

Real New Yorkers welcome immigrants.

America - if you can make it here you can make it anywhere. :)
No shit. I am one of those New Yorkers. I just have a huge problem with the whole, you know, illegal part. I also have a huge problem with everything being in spanish even though New York City are made up of immigrants all over the world that doent speak spanish.

My mother-in-law is from Trinidad. Have you ever eatin roti or curri pork?

Hmmm... when he talks about GAWD and Kuntry.. he is God's Elect on Earth, the most holy and high El Presidente George W Bush and when he is talking about immigration in this case he is the "rich globalist Bush". Well Bush turns this leftist's stomach. But in Dubya's case he is seeing the immigrants as a labor force to be exploited and used. People like my, on the other hand see immigrants as human beings.

Hello? I have never once said or even remotely implied that Bush was 'God's elect on earth', obviously you haven't paid much attention to my political posts because I have never been a Bush supporter, either Bush Sr. or Dubya. I have always stated he is a globalist.

If your family is from Ecuadore than you really should have more sympathy for these people. They are fleeing poverty and exploitation. In most cases they find more poverty and exploitation here. But can you blame any of them? I have visited Mexico before and I can tell you, I would not want to live like the common people there. And its a shame because I found that most Mexicans are kind, gentle, hospitible people who work hard, are religious, family oriented and would if given the chance, make excellent US citizens.

I do have sympathy for them. I don't believe that encouraging them to ignore our laws and become instant criminals is helping them, I have enough sympathy to want to help them either have a better life in their country, or immigrate here legally. I think a person shows more love and sympathy when you help people to do things the right way, not by putting them in a position of exploitation and having to live a life of constant worry because they're here illegally.

I just have a huge problem with the whole, you know, illegal part.

Something tells me that this can be said 50,000 times and it still wouldn't get through.

Anyone here who has never, ever broken a law raise their hand.

Now, anyone who would never, ever break a law to lift their family out of crushing, hopeless poverty, raise their hand.

Anyone here who has never, ever broken a law raise their hand.

Yeah, and the times I did break a law (as in speeding, for example) I would be prepared to pay the price, I wouldn't knowingly break the law and then believe I shouldn't be subject to any consequences. I don't go around thinking I'm above the law. If you have a problem with the law, then work to change it, maybe you and jojo can start a campaign to completley open our borders, I'm sure Bush will be right there with you on that.

Now, anyone who would never, ever break a law to lift their family out of crushing, hopeless poverty, raise their hand.

Well I know that you have good intentions, but I'll have to disagree that there are absolutely no other ways, there are always ways, and the only way I would agree with you is if the situation involved a totally unjust law. But I don't think our immigration laws are unjust at all, we are very generous and open, compared to many other countries, but the law does exist for a reason. It's important to know who is coming here, what they're bringing, etc, etc, and if you don't see the potential for bad to happen with an uncontrolled border, then either you haven't thought this through, or you maybe don't care?

Yeah, and the times I did break a law (as in speeding, for example) I would be prepared to pay the price, I wouldn't knowingly break the law and then believe I shouldn't be subject to any consequences. I don't go around thinking I'm above the law.

So when you speed and don't get caught, do you go down to the courthouse and insist that they schedule you for traffic court?

How about if a cop says he's going to let you off with a warning? Do you demand that he hold you accountable for breaking the law, or do you let the cop "look the other way" because it benefits you?

If you have a problem with the law, then work to change it, maybe you and jojo can start a campaign to completley open our borders, I'm sure Bush will be right there with you on that.


The law is in the process of being changed right now. I guarantee you that no matter what happens, 11 million "illegal" immigrants will not be summarily ejected from our country. That is pure fantasy, if not downright physically impossible.

So I don't need to campaign for anything. The anti-immigrant folks are the ones who shold have been campaigning, a long time ago.

And please don't bring the bizarre and insane bitterness between CCC, jojo and yourself into this discussion. I have nothing to do with that. You know I respect you.





Well I know that you have good intentions, but I'll have to disagree that there are absolutely no other ways, there are always ways, and the only way I would agree with you is if the situation involved a totally unjust law.

That's a fine philosophical premise, but if my family lived in the sort of desperate poverty that exists in Mexico, I'd break whatever law I had to in order to improve our situation. The law exists for the people, not vice-versa.

When "the law" starts existing solely in order to keep poor people poor and make rich people richer (as it does in many cases in America and Mexico), then it's time for righteous people to disregard the law.

And I do mean ANY law.

But I don't think our immigration laws are unjust at all,

Our immigration laws are not the problem; our economic policy is. And as I alluded above, it is far too late to change that. The New Slavery is already happening.

Hell, even slave-owners provided medical care to their slaves. These plantation owners today have it easy.