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Feenix566
02-27-2006, 10:37 AM
This is a very long article, and the issue is very complex, but nonetheless this is a very serious issue that presents a very real threat to America's economy and her government.


A FISCAL WAKE UP CALL

Overview

It is often said that our political system only responds to a crisis. If that is true, we are in for big trouble.

Our nation is about to undergo an unprecedented demographic transformation -- with no idea of how to pay for it. The coming age wave is not a temporary challenge that will recede once the baby boom generation passes away. The boomers’ retirement is ushering in a permanent transformation to an older population—and a permanent rise in the cost of programs such as Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, which already comprise 42 percent of the federal budget.

It is true that there is no immediate crisis. Yet, a broad bipartisan consensus exits that current fiscal policy is on an unsustainable path. No one can say exactly when a crisis will hit, but by the time it does we will have likely burdened the economy with a debilitating amount of debt; leaving painful benefit cuts and steep tax increases as the only solutions. Doing nothing to avoid such a gut-wrenching outcome, knowing full well that it could occur, would be an act of fiscal and generational irresponsibility.

Older people rely heavily on government entitlement programs and their numbers are soon expected to grow as the post-World War II baby boomers enter their retirement years. There are 37 million people in the population age 65 and older today. By 2025, it is estimated that there will be 62 million. By 2045, they will rise to nearly 80 million, or more than double their current number. In contrast, by 2025 the number of people working in the economy is estimated to rise by only 13 percent, and by 2045, only 20 percent.

This dynamic has troublesome implications for the budget and the economy. Demographic change, however, is only part of the problem. Health care prices continue to outpace economic growth and this phenomenon greatly compounds the growing costs attributable to the rising number of aged.

Without a change in policy, by the time today’s 20-year olds reach retirement age the cost of government as a share of the economy is on track to be at levels not seen since the nation was fighting World War II -- the big difference being that instead of spending the money on a life and death struggle against totalitarian aggression we would be spending it on an ever-rising stream of benefit payments.

Today, governmental expenditures absorb 20 percent of the economy (GDP). At the high end of what the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO) sees as a possible range, federal spending could rise to 56 percent of GDP in 2050. In contrast, federal spending never went above 44 percent of GDP throughout World War II.

While it may be unrealistic to assume that half the nation’s economic output could be consumed by government programs, even if the cost of government rose to 30 percent of GDP, the share of the economy needed would be 50 percent greater than it is today.

This raises an obvious question: how will we pay for it? Federal tax receipts have hovered in the range of 18 percent of GDP over the past half century. In 2000, they reached 21 percent of GDP. Today they stand at 17.5 percent. The federal budget deficit, $318 billion in the 2005 fiscal year that ended on September 30, is 2.6 percent of GDP.

If retirement and health care entitlements are allowed to grow on autopilot pushing total federal spending to 30 percent of the economy, and Americans’ intolerance for taxes above 20 percent of GDP holds true, the resulting deficits will rapidly escalate to dangerous levels. A deficit equaling 10 percent of GDP in today’s terms is the equivalent of $1.3 trillion a year. That amount is roughly half of today’s total government expenditures. The prospects of being able to carry that amount of new debt, year after year, without stifling the economy are nil.

The choices we make now will determine what kind of society our children and grandchildren inherit 20 and 30 years from now. There is little time for political gridlock. With the first of the 77 million baby boomers on the verge of retirement, the window of opportunity to act is rapidly closing.[1] Inaction now increases the prospects of severe changes later. Every year that alterations are put off greatly raises the risk of large tax increases or sudden benefit reductions in the future.
Short-term outlook

There is at least one positive thing to report on the budget front: at $318 billion, the deficit in 2005 was $95 billion lower than the $413 billion deficit in 2004.[2] Moreover, CBO’s January 2006, Budget and Economic Outlook shows a gradual improvement in the deficit over the next decade even as the baby boom generation begins to retire. In fact, by 2012 small surpluses return. As a result, the cumulative deficit over the 10-year horizon is a relatively modest $832 billion.

Does this mean that we are on a smooth and easy road back to balanced budgets? Not at all. The good news is superficial. Both CBO and the President’s Office of Management and Budget (OMB) say that the deficit will likely go up in 2006 to a range of $360 billion to $400 billion.

The deceptively benign outlook beyond that is not because spending on health care and retirement programs is held in check. To the contrary, between 2006 and 2016 the cost of Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid will increase by 24 percent—from 8.7 to 10.8 percent of GDP. As a result, these three programs, which consumed 42 percent of federal spending in 2005, will consume 56 percent by 2016.

The reason why CBO’s official baseline appears so positive is that it assumes Congress and the President will hold discretionary programs, including defense, to just 2 percent growth annually -- as opposed to 8 percent last year and a 5.3 percent annual average rate from 1994 through 2004 -- and that they will not enact legislation to extend any expiring tax cuts or provide relief from the Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT)[3].

Not surprisingly, actual budget outcomes tend to be worse than CBO’s baseline projections, which assume no changes to current polices.[4] Experience demonstrates that legislative activity is likely to increase deficits, particularly since there is no longer a consensus to balance the budget and strong enforcement measures that would hold the budget in check are absent.

This year will be no exception. Pursuant to the FY 2006 Congressional Budget Resolution, the House and Senate are debating a package of tax provisions with an estimated revenue loss that could go as high as $106 billion over 5 years – almost three times the amount of entitlement savings enacted earlier ($39 billion) as part of the so- called “Deficit Reduction Act of 2005.” In other words, the “deficit reduction” in the spending bill stands to be more than given back when the tax reduction part of the 2006 budget plan is enacted.

On the discretionary side of the budget, which is determined by annual appropriations, Congress and the President have already approved $62 billion of supplemental spending in response to the devastation of Hurricane Katrina. Higher amounts are expected as the full extent of the damage to the Gulf Coast region becomes apparent. Deficits in the range of $350 billion to $400 billion now seem likely for 2006 and 2007.

In addition to the recent emergency spending, current budget projections are unusually complicated by a number of other factors -- some on the spending side and some on the revenue side. On the spending side, projections are complicated by the treatment of operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Bush Administration has chosen to treat each year’s expense as a one-time event on the theory that future costs are unknowable. This has the effect of understating outlays in the President’s budget projections because it assumes no continuing costs in Iraq and Afghanistan even though, as the Administration acknowledges, that will not be the cas

On the other hand, the CBO’s latest budget projections probably overstate likely costs for these operations because, in keeping with the scoring conventions of budget laws, it assumes that this year’s level of appropriations (including the war costs) will continue each year adjusted for inflation. The effect of this is to assume that operations in Iraq and Afghanistan (along with Hurricane Katrina relief efforts) will continue at their current level for the next 10 years. While this outcome is not impossible, a more probable projection would fall somewhere between 10-year costs at the current level and the Administration’s official assumption that there will be no further costs beyond those requested in this year’s budget.

Projections on the revenue side of the budget are complicated by two factors; the scheduled expiration in 2011 of the tax cuts enacted since 2001 and the growing toll of the Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT), which if not adjusted will apply to roughly eight times as many taxpayers by 2010 as it does today. In preparing its baseline, CBO must assume that current law is carried out; it cannot assume policy changes. Thus, however politically improbable, the baseline assumes a revenue windfall from expiring tax cuts in 2011 and rapidly growing receipts from the AMT.

Taking all these factors together, CBO’s January baseline is much too optimistic. A more plausible deficit path based on recent experience would:

* Assume a phase-down of supplemental funding for Iraq and Afghanistan and assume that regular appropriations grow with the economy instead of at the rate of inflation as assumed in the projections (net added spending of $932 billion)
* Assume that expiring tax cuts are extended as proposed by the President and Republican majority in Congress ($2 trillion revenue loss)
* Assume continuing relief from the AMT by adjusting it for inflation ($865 billion revenue loss)
* Deduct another $700 billion for added debt service cost on the above changes

Under that scenario, deficits would total $5.3 trillion over the 2007 to 2016 period, instead of the $832 billion projected in CBO’s official baseline (see figure 1).

Regardless of the outlook for the next 10 years, CBO warns that “growing resouse demands for [Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid] will exert pressure on the budget that economic growth alone is unlikely to eliminate.” As a result, CBO concludes, “A substantial reduction in the growth of spending and perhaps a sizable increase in taxes as

a share of the economy will be necessary for fiscal stability to be at all likely in the coming decades.”[5]

The real question is whether the President and Congress are up to this challenge or will they be content to let these developing problems fester in hopes that future lawmakers -- with fewer choices and perhaps acting under crisis circumstances -- can find solutions.


http://www.concordcoalition.org/events/fiscal-wake-up/fiscal-wake-up-call.htm


What will happen if the federal government collapses under the weight of the debt incurred as a result of these social programs, and the unwillingness to pay for them?

Freedom&Liberty
02-27-2006, 11:01 AM
What will happen if the federal government collapses under the weight of the debt incurred as a result of these social programs, and the unwillingness to pay for them?Nice post Feenix. Congress will wait until it's too late, if they haven't already. The solution will be to devalue the dollar. Resulting in the deaths of millions of Americans.

Mobile Vulgus
02-27-2006, 12:07 PM
I find it amusing that you think the gov't MUST collapse when the social programs get too burdensome. Instead, what will happen is that all the programs will be instantly cancelled to great pain, but the govt won't run out of money!

If you look back through time you will see that man never does anything until it is too late and nothing else can be done. So, the US govt will probably never make a sensible transition from overburdening social programs, but will come to a day when they all go up in smoke at once in a real crisis of one type or another.

Then 100 see I told you so boks will be published and a few TV specials will tsk tsk everyone and we will move on.

I am not sayng this is the RIGHT way, I'm saying it is the human way.

fat mike
02-27-2006, 12:38 PM
There is already a massive effort to kill "entitlements"-the benefits actually reaching people in need don't comprise the lion's share of the expense-but short term we're about to put a man in the Fed who doesn't share Greenspan picayune attitude about augmenting the money supply.

Feenix566
02-27-2006, 12:45 PM
I find it amusing that you think the gov't MUST collapse when the social programs get too burdensome. Instead, what will happen is that all the programs will be instantly cancelled to great pain, but the govt won't run out of money!


But the big question is: when will that happen?

The gov't can't run out of money when it doesn't have any money to begin with. All the government has is a debt and an income. The real catalyst for change will be when the gov't can't afford its interest payments and lenders refuse to lend it any more money. At that point all the social programs, and possibly military spending as well, will come to a screeching halt as the checks start to bounce.

What do you think will happen when all of our soldiers' paychecks bounce?

fat mike
02-27-2006, 12:51 PM
But the big question is: when will that happen?

The gov't can't run out of money when it doesn't have any money to begin with. All the government has is a debt and an income. The real catalyst for change will be when the gov't can't afford its interest payments and lenders refuse to lend it any more money. At that point all the social programs, and possibly military spending as well, will come to a screeching halt as the checks start to bounce.

What do you think will happen when all of our soldiers' paychecks bounce?

Remember the old banker's sayng? "If you owe 10,000 bucks it's your problem,if you owe 10,000,000 bucks it's the bank's problem"
The bankers bail out Poland for crying out loud...

Mobile Vulgus
02-27-2006, 01:55 PM
I have to say I am 100% against welfare. I am also 100% against Federal money going to education in ANY way.

But, the biggest problem is the way Congress budgets its spending. You may have heard of the "earmark" issues in the House of Reps? If we get RID of earmarks, get RID of pork spending and give the President a line item veto, we will be able to get spending down.

Still, I am against all welfare from the Federal govt. I am not as much against it from the states, but welfare spending is 100% anti-constitutional.

fat mike
02-27-2006, 02:03 PM
You know you're not just hurting the poor-that edifice also supports a substantial portion of the middle class...

Mobile Vulgus
02-27-2006, 02:07 PM
... and if it DOES it SHOULDN'T!

And what "hurting" can you possible imagine would occur?

86Dude
02-27-2006, 02:10 PM
Any American economic collapse will be followed quickly by world war III I suspect.

Stone
02-27-2006, 02:11 PM
Still, I am against all welfare from the Federal govt. I am not as much against it from the states, but welfare spending is 100% anti-constitutional.
the states have been basically stripped of most of their soverignty... we should just change the name of the "United States of America" to just "America" to accurately reflect the political reality.

Or for max. accuracy: "America Inc."

Any American economic collapse will be followed quickly by world war III I suspect.
fact.

Java_man
02-27-2006, 02:15 PM
What will happen if the federal government collapses under the weight of the debt incurred as a result of these social programs, and the unwillingness to pay for them?

The unspoken agenda of the new-conservatives is to spend the country to the brink of economic collapse so there is no choice but to abolish entitlement programs.

Feenix566
02-27-2006, 02:31 PM
The unspoken agenda of the new-conservatives is to spend the country to the brink of economic collapse so there is no choice but to abolish entitlement programs.

I can't help but agree with you. The way Bush is cutting taxes and increasing spending... what other plan could he have?

fat mike
02-27-2006, 02:37 PM
... and if it DOES it SHOULDN'T!

And what "hurting" can you possible imagine would occur?

Throwing America's civil service out of work? Could be bad...
The Republicans have had power for decades-even Clinton only got in by
undermining long standing policies in the Democrat's agenda-they've made no inroads against statism...
Why do you suppose that is? If you say the political power of welfare recipients you need some desparate attention...

Stone
02-27-2006, 02:40 PM
lol FM. welfare recipients are "voters" arent they?

Feenix566
02-27-2006, 02:44 PM
Throwing America's civil service out of work? Could be bad...
The Republicans have had power for decades-even Clinton only got in by
undermining long standing policies in the Democrat's agenda-they've made no inroads against statism...
Why do you suppose that is? If you say the political power of welfare recipients you need some desparate attention...


This is the reason that nobody is going to do jack shit to save America from the impending fiscal doom. The blame game. There's only two parties, and both of them blame the other one for every single problem that our country has ever had.

Wake up! It's doesn't matter whose fault it is! If we don't fix it, we're all ****ed!

Freedom&Liberty
02-27-2006, 03:03 PM
I find it amusing that you think the gov't MUST collapse when the social programs get too burdensome. Instead, what will happen is that all the programs will be instantly cancelled to great pain, but the govt won't run out of money!They will make more and it will devalue whats already out there. Loaf of bread = $127.00

If you look back through time you will see that man never does anything until it is too late and nothing else can be done. So, the US govt will probably never make a sensible transition from overburdening social programs, but will come to a day when they all go up in smoke at once in a real crisis of one type or another.

Then 100 see I told you so boks will be published and a few TV specials will tsk tsk everyone and we will move on.

I am not sayng this is the RIGHT way, I'm saying it is the human way.I think we should try to nip it in the bud before the inevitable happens. Why not try to counteract human nature for a change. End the programs now, go through the suffering and the country will be better off in the long run.

Feenix566
02-27-2006, 03:07 PM
I think we should try to nip it in the bud before the inevitable happens. Why not try to counteract human nature for a change. End the programs now, go through the suffering and the country will be better off in the long run.

Because any political action that causes suffering in the short term will be widely opposed, regardless of how much suffering it avoids in the long term. Most people don't appreciate it when you avoid a problem that never occurs.

It's the same reason that the gov't decided not to re-enforce the New Orleans levees when they had the chance. It would have cost money. If they had re-enforced them and avoided the Katrina disaster, people still would have complained about how much it cost to re-enforce them and questioned whether it was neccessary.

jimmyjude
02-27-2006, 04:10 PM
I disagree with two of the premises of the article. That the demographics of the US is tending to age (every study I read says that America's median age will be in the mid-thirties).

The other is that we will continue to be terrorized by the oxygen-sucking, whiny boomer generation.

Although the second premise is probably accurate. The boomers have spent their lives doing nothing but complaining and taking and that trend will be incredibly hard to change without concerted efforts on the parts of the other generations in the pipeline.

but just because the boomers have been so efficient at demanding benefits they don't deserve doesn't mean that the American people will continue to go along with that right into bankruptcy.

It is interesting to note that Bush's applause from Dummierats only came when he talked about how they defeated his initiative to do SOMETHING about some of these entitlements.

and that is exactly what they are: entitlements.

Freedom&Liberty
02-27-2006, 04:28 PM
Because any political action that causes suffering in the short term will be widely opposed, regardless of how much suffering it avoids in the long term. Most people don't appreciate it when you avoid a problem that never occurs. You're probably right. If only the programs had never been started in the first place. One thing's for sure, the cats out of the bag and she's very fertile.

It's the same reason that the gov't decided not to re-enforce the New Orleans levees when they had the chance. It would have cost money. If they had re-enforced them and avoided the Katrina disaster, people still would have complained about how much it cost to re-enforce them and questioned whether it was neccessary.Yep. Everyone wants a proactive government after the shit hits the fan.

fat mike
02-27-2006, 04:58 PM
This is the reason that nobody is going to do jack shit to save America from the impending fiscal doom. The blame game. There's only two parties, and both of them blame the other one for every single problem that our country has ever had.

Wake up! It's doesn't matter whose fault it is! If we don't fix it, we're all ****ed!

There are people on both sides who are approppriately concerned-we're transitioning into socialistic economy thanks to the republicans-who are the only ones who could get away with doing that-I know you don't like that
but centralized controls will make it easier to disassemble the machine and build a new one.

jimmyjude
02-27-2006, 05:25 PM
There are people on both sides who are approppriately concerned-we're transitioning into socialistic economy thanks to the republicans-who are the only ones who could get away with doing that-I know you don't like that
but centralized controls will make it easier to disassemble the machine and build a new one.

JH Christ.

Dems controlled the purse strings for nearly 70 years and now it is the Republicans fault?

fat mike
02-27-2006, 05:29 PM
JH Christ.

Dems controlled the purse strings for nearly 70 years and now it is the Republicans fault?

I said the GOP were enabling us to set up a socialistic system-at least on the limited lines envisioned by FDR-you're right the Dems spent a lot of money-I wan't assigning but hoping for a solution. How people think the "Market" is some kind of sapient being who will be able to right the wrings and cure the injustice wrought by all these lawbreakers is beyond my ken...

jimmyjude
02-27-2006, 05:34 PM
Ai ai ai.

That is like the idea that only Nixon could have gone to China?

Mobile Vulgus
02-27-2006, 05:51 PM
Dems controlled the purse strings for nearly 70 years

They STILL do, even with GOPers in control. because the dems have fooled Americans into thinking that the govt OWES them money for so long that even the GOP spends like Democrats!

fat mike
02-27-2006, 06:01 PM
They STILL do, even with GOPers in control. because the dems have fooled Americans into thinking that the govt OWES them money for so long that even the GOP spends like Democrats!

We owe the banks.

Ai ai ai.

That is like the idea that only Nixon could have gone to China?

That's the idea...

Betrade
02-27-2006, 08:13 PM
Throwing America's civil service out of work? Could be bad...
The Republicans have had power for decades-even Clinton only got in by
undermining long standing policies in the Democrat's agenda-they've made no inroads against statism...
Why do you suppose that is? If you say the political power of welfare recipients you need some desparate attention...

Republicans have only had power for 12 years, and 4 years of that was under a democratic president. The last time they controlled congress prior to 94' was during the Eisenhower administration.

Clinton didn't intentionally undermine anything. He just claimed the republican agenda as his own for political gain, because it was wildly popular at the time. The contract for america resonated very well with the voters, and he milked it for all it was worth politically.

He wasn't a man of conviction. He would have gone along with any agenda, be it liberal, moderate or conservative, as long as he could score political points by jumping on board and pretending it was his idea. He governed according to the poll numbers. He actually had a staff of pollsters who went ahead of him everywhere he went. They would form focus groups, and the President would gear his agenda to whatever results they came up with. It actually worked pretty good for him.

fat mike
02-27-2006, 08:18 PM
Republicans have only had power for 12 years, and 4 years of that was under a democratic president. The last time they controlled congress prior to 94' was during the Eisenhower administration.

Clinton didn't intentionally undermine anything. He just claimed the republican agenda as his own for political gain, because it was wildly popular at the time. The contract for america resonated very well with the voters, and he milked it for all it was worth politically.

He wasn't a man of conviction. He would have gone along with any agenda, be it liberal, moderate or conservative, as long as he could score political points by jumping on board and pretending it was his idea. He governed according to the poll numbers. He actually had a staff of pollsters who went ahead of him everywhere he went. They would form focus groups, and the President would gear his agenda to whatever results they came up with. It actually worked pretty good for him.

The GOP was a more effective opposition party than the Dems are being now-With respect to Clinton I agree but doesnt that belie the point? Regardless of his motives he still paid attention to the conservative agenda-same result thank you very much...

jimmyjude
02-27-2006, 09:17 PM
They STILL do, even with GOPers in control. because the dems have fooled Americans into thinking that the govt OWES them money for so long that even the GOP spends like Democrats!

Well I can't disagree with that, and it does seem that empirically proven.

Feenix566
02-28-2006, 10:42 AM
How is it that a warning about how our social programs are going to bankrupt the government has turned into a critique of Clinton's administration?

jimmyjude
02-28-2006, 01:01 PM
Clintoon?.

To me almost anything can turn into a criticism of that cretin.

However. It was the demoncrats that put the kabash on the SS reform.

Boomers are blood-sucking, disease-ridden leeches on society.

ironwest
03-01-2006, 02:09 PM
However. It was the demoncrats that put the kabash on the SS reform..
SS is not entitlement.

Boomers are blood-sucking, disease-ridden leeches on society.
They paid their share on SS and everything else. Goverment should at least pay back the SS money they put in during their productive years.

Double the number of medical schools, so that more doctor is availabe and let them compete for patients. Import foreign doctors and nurses.

Feenix566
03-01-2006, 02:15 PM
SS is not entitlement.


If SS is not an entitlement program, what is?


They paid their share on SS and everything else. Goverment should at least pay back the SS money they put in during their productive years.

Well if we're going to be fair, we'll have to resurrect all the people who died in the last forty years and got more money out of social security than they put in.

That's the problem with SS. It was given as a gift to the first people who recieved it. And the first people to pay into it were the boomers, and they were compensated with nothing more than a promise that the next generation (who weren't old enough to vote yet) would pay them when they retired.

Our predecessors have screwed us royally, and now it's up to this generation to put things right, one way or another.

Mobile Vulgus
03-01-2006, 03:26 PM
They paid their share on SS and everything else

Then all they should get BACK is what they paid IN!

This claim that recipients paid their "fair share" is bull crap. they get back MANY TIMES MORE than they ever paid in. THAT is what makes it an entitlement!

ironwest
03-01-2006, 04:37 PM
Then all they should get BACK is what they paid IN!
This claim that recipients paid their "fair share" is bull crap. they get back MANY TIMES MORE than they ever paid in. THAT is what makes it an entitlement!
Numbers to back this claim up? If that is true, yes, it can be considered as entitlement, which needs adjustment. So far SS has huge surplus (lend to congress), which makes your claim hard to believe. From my own experience, the projected amount of payment is not much more than I paid in.

ironwest
03-01-2006, 04:45 PM
That's the problem with SS. It was given as a gift to the first people who recieved it. And the first people to pay into it were the boomers, and they were compensated with nothing more than a promise that the next generation (who weren't old enough to vote yet) would pay them when they retired.
- 100 pay nothing, get 100x100K, while 1000 (boomer) pays 1000x100K, leave a balance of 900x100K.
- 1000 gets 1000x100K, while 100 pays 100x100K, leaves a balance of 0.
As long as the goverment pay back it's loan from SS, why can't it work? On average one should gets what he/she paid in, plus some interest which cover for inflation.

Mobile Vulgus
03-01-2006, 05:32 PM
Numbers to back this claim up?

Are you not aware of how the system works?

EVERYONE pays in less than they receive IF they live long enough.

The very first person who got the benefit got thousands more than she ever paid in in the late 40's!

The benefits continue as long as you live, but the program was created when people rarely lived past 65 years of age. Now the average age is 79 for men, so that means benefits are being paid for over 10 years past when they were imagined they would have long stopped.

Here is the facts on the first recipient:

Ida May Fuller worked for three years under the Social Security program. The accumulated taxes on her salary during those three years was a total of $24.75. Her initial monthly check was $22.54. During her lifetime she collected a total of $22,888.92 in Social Security benefits

source: http://www.ssa.gov/history/briefhistory3.html#idamay

Who NEEDS to work with ENTITLEMENTS like this!???

ironwest
03-01-2006, 05:51 PM
EVERYONE pays in less than they receive IF they live long enough.
The benefits continue as long as you live, but the program was created when people rarely lived past 65 years of age. Now the average age is 79 for men, so that means benefits are being paid for over 10 years past when they were imagined they would have long stopped.
Then adjust the system to work with longer life expectency.

Here is the facts on the first recipient:
Ida May Fuller worked for three years under the Social Security program. The accumulated taxes on her salary during those three years was a total of $24.75. Her initial monthly check was $22.54. During her lifetime she collected a total of $22,888.92 in Social Security benefits.
(1) First recipient are expected to get more from the SS design. Still if the SS is designed correctly, the deficit should stabilize over time.
(2) Normalize her wage and payment to todays dollar will make it possible to compare apple to apple. People at that time buy a house for 3 thousand dollars.

Mobile Vulgus
03-01-2006, 06:08 PM
Then adjust the system to work with longer life expectency.

No ELIMINATE the system.

Still if the SS is designed correctly, the deficit should stabilize over time

Again NO. It wil NEVER "stabilize". It is merely shell game and always HAS been Even FDR said that it was about getting votes (bribing the voters) and NOT about "security" at all.

The program is garbage and should be scrapped.

ironwest
03-01-2006, 06:26 PM
It wil NEVER "stabilize". It is merely shell game and always HAS been Even FDR said that it was about getting votes (bribing the voters) and NOT about "security" at all.
The program is garbage and should be scrapped.
To this date, it guarantees you a check every month until you die. That is security in my opinion.

Stone
03-01-2006, 10:20 PM
To this date, it guarantees you a check every month until you die. That is security in my opinion.
I think SS as a retirement plan should be abolished, but it would be impossible to undo and will never happen. I believe orphaned children and some others are helped by the program and I support that cause...

It seems pointless for the government to pay money to tax payers. They take money, then they give it back. Big ****in deal.

Pappy&Me
03-01-2006, 11:21 PM
Clintoon?.

To me almost anything can turn into a criticism of that cretin.

However. It was the demoncrats that put the kabash on the SS reform.

Boomers are blood-sucking, disease-ridden leeches on society.


And if you think they are bad, just take a good look at their offspring ! :eek7:

Pappy&Me
03-01-2006, 11:30 PM
If SS is not an entitlement program, what is?



Well if we're going to be fair, we'll have to resurrect all the people who died in the last forty years and got more money out of social security than they put in.

That's the problem with SS. It was given as a gift to the first people who recieved it. And the first people to pay into it were the boomers, and they were compensated with nothing more than a promise that the next generation (who weren't old enough to vote yet) would pay them when they retired.

Our predecessors have screwed us royally, and now it's up to this generation to put things right, one way or another.



You don't know what your talking about . We paid into that government forced system for over half a century !

if you want to complain about retirement programs, go check out what the leaders give themselves for retirement !! And they never pay into it one damn dime , they just take what they want . Their wives or spouses usually get more in a year than people who paid into it for decades do in lifetime .

ironwest
03-02-2006, 01:18 AM
They take money, then they give it back. Big ****in deal.
Every elderly is guaranteed to get a check every month until he/she die is a very big deal.

Pappy&Me
03-02-2006, 01:29 AM
Every elderly is guaranteed to get a check every month until he/she die is a very big deal.


What you need to worry your liberal self about is the ones who are bankrupting this nation . not the damn ones who payed into ,protected it and built it ! Worry about the freeloading nationals and invaders that are gurranteing you a soon to be third world . That are breeding like rabbits and useing up resources , like water ,health care and whats left of breathable air in this over populated nation .

Mobile Vulgus
03-02-2006, 01:57 AM
To this date, it guarantees you a check every month until you die. That is security in my opinion.

No it is disgusting socialism. It MUST be eliminated.

Feenix566
03-02-2006, 10:12 AM
It seems pointless for the government to pay money to tax payers. They take money, then they give it back. Big ****in deal.

Not only is it pointless, we're wasting money paying government employees to administer the program... and trust me there is nothing in this world less efficient than a federal government beurocracy.

ironwest
03-02-2006, 11:21 AM
No it is disgusting socialism. It MUST be eliminated.
This may be socialism, in a similar way to that of an insurance. You pay money to ensure your investment in a car, yet you refuse to pay for SS which ensure your quality of life after you retire?

ironwest
03-02-2006, 11:24 AM
we're wasting money paying government employees to administer the program... and trust me there is nothing in this world less efficient than a federal government beurocracy.
This is true, only no one else is willing/capable to give you such an insurance like SS to guarantee the your quality of life after you retire.

Feenix566
03-02-2006, 11:30 AM
This is true, only no one else is willing/capable to give you such an insurance like SS to guarantee the your quality of life after you retire.

I don't see why not. I imagine there has to be some insurance company out there that will sell you a package with regular monthly payouts, and the cost of it would depend on your life expentancy.

ironwest
03-02-2006, 11:34 AM
What you need to worry your liberal self about is the ones who are bankrupting this nation . not the damn ones who payed into ,protected it and built it ! Worry about the freeloading nationals and invaders that are gurranteing you a soon to be third world . That are breeding like rabbits and useing up resources , like water ,health care and whats left of breathable air in this over populated nation .
population per square mile: US: 79, Japan: 855. Besides, wouldn't they fill the gap after baby boomer? That is they will pay your SS.

ironwest
03-02-2006, 11:37 AM
I don't see why not. I imagine there has to be some insurance company out there that will sell you a package with regular monthly payouts, and the cost of it would depend on your life expentancy.
Private company does not have the power of a goverment (print/borrow money). What happens after they declare bankrupcy?

Feenix566
03-02-2006, 11:45 AM
Private company does not have the power of a goverment (print/borrow money). What happens after they declare bankrupcy?

private companies borrow money all the time. and private companies provide insurance for everything from cars to houses to healthcare to boats and jewelry, without declaring bankrupcy. people trust private insurance companies with everything that they hold dear. why not retirement insurance?

Freedom&Liberty
03-02-2006, 01:14 PM
Indeed, many term life insurance companies provide distributed payouts after a certain age. Annuities can also be set up.

ironwest
03-02-2006, 02:55 PM
private companies borrow money all the time. and private companies provide insurance for everything from cars to houses to healthcare to boats and jewelry, without declaring bankrupcy. people trust private insurance companies with everything that they hold dear.
Those are short term insurance, paid/insured year over year.

why not retirement insurance?
We are talking about paying for 30 years and then receiving for next 30 years. Unless it has the provision like United Airline pension, which is backed up by goverment, who will trust their retirement life to a private company?

ironwest
03-02-2006, 05:18 PM
Indeed, many term life insurance companies provide distributed payouts after a certain age. Annuities can also be set up.
Is annuities protected from creditors/judgement? Since it is under your name, you own it, and someone may claim against it during the 30 years in retirement.

Mobile Vulgus
03-02-2006, 05:40 PM
ironwest,

This may be socialism, in a similar way to that of an insurance. You pay money to ensure your investment in a car, yet you refuse to pay for SS which ensure your quality of life after you retire?

You know, you sound just like the old TV show, Get Smart. Every time agent Smart would tell the bad guys he had them surrounded and they didn't believe him, he would change his story with a "Would you believe...?"

You have changed your view of SS about 20 times on this thread, You have gone from imagining it is not an entitlement, to it is a program that we get what we put in, to it isn't socialism, and NOW it is "just like an insurance policy" to you!!!

"Would you believe..."?

Dude, you have shown you have no clue whatsoever about what SS is, how it operates, what it is for and why it was created as a lie and vote getting scheme from the word go.

Now I will correct your latest misdirection:

#1 It is NOT like an insurance policy. An insurance policy for a car is arranged with the assumption that it will NEVER be used (UNLESS there is an accident). So it is basically ALWAYS money out and NONE returned. It is NOT set up for ANY return automatically.

#2 SS is NOT meant to "ensure quality of life" for ANYONE. It is merely a very low subsistence level return. For instance, when I am 67 I am supposed to get (as things stand now) about $1,000 a month from SS. Now that is nearly 30 years from now. But TODAY even the lowest rent in any medium sized city is rarely much under $900 a month. So how the **** is $1,000 SS supposed to "ensure my quality of life"??????

SS was meant SOLELY as a vote getting measure for Democrats. THAT IS ALL IT IS FOR.

You keep flailing about for a solid reason to support this retched program for one reason and one reason only. You are a THIEF who wishes to find some legal way to steal money from other people so that you don't have to fend for yourself.

You and your kind disgust me.

boedicca
03-02-2006, 05:44 PM
You forgot to mention that unlike insurance, which must maintain sufficient capital requirements/reserves to pay claims, SS is a careening financial disaster waiting to happen. There is no TRUST FUND - just a bunch of IOUs that Congress has provided by borrowing the current surplus to spend even more on worthless pork programs in the present. Two! Two! Two Pay-Offs for the Price of One!

ironwest
03-02-2006, 06:16 PM
You have changed your view of SS about 20 times on this thread, You have gone from imagining it is not an entitlement, to it is a program that we get what we put in, to it isn't socialism, and NOW it is "just like an insurance policy" to you!!!.
It is not an entitlement, because the money distributed come from earlier payment of the receiver, or you get what you paid in. I said it may be a socialism in a similar way to insurance.


#1 It is NOT like an insurance policy. An insurance policy for a car is arranged with the assumption that it will NEVER be used (UNLESS there is an accident). So it is basically ALWAYS money out and NONE returned. It is NOT set up for ANY return automatically.
Who had no accident in the last 10 years? Some had bigger accident and they got more payment then they put in. Some had less/minor accident and they paid more than they got paid. For SS on average everyone should get what they paid in. Those who die early get less than they paid in. Those who live longer get more than they paid in.

#2 SS is NOT meant to "ensure quality of life" for ANYONE. It is merely a very low subsistence level return. For instance, when I am 67 I am supposed to get (as things stand now) about $1,000 a month from SS. Now that is nearly 30 years from now. But TODAY even the lowest rent in any medium sized city is rarely much under $900 a month. So how the **** is $1,000 SS supposed to "ensure my quality of life"??????
It is better then begging in street.

You keep flailing about for a solid reason to support this retched program for one reason and one reason only. You are a THIEF who wishes to find some legal way to steal money from other people so that you don't have to fend for yourself. You and your kind disgust me.
Get back what I paid in is not stealing.

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