There are 276 pages of discussion here at DA's Political Debate forum; in all this time, how much has been accomplished? How frequently or infrequently has a discussion led to a point where someone said, "You know what, you've laid out your arguments and facts quite effectively. I'm convinced."

Has there been any progress on moving toward consensus on abortion? Capital punishment? Gay marriage? Gun ownership rights? School vouchers? Government religious displays? Taxation rates? Trade policies? Immigration policy?

I don't mean to sound snooty, but I'd give most discussions a low D for honest debate. Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan said, "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." Most discussions I've been a part of seem to disregard this principle, at least in the posters' minds. I wouldn't trust many of you to do a competent job at factcheck.org, to put it bluntly.

Are there really folks here interested in and capable of engaging in a discussion with the goals of understanding and consensus in mind, or are most here just to spout some rhetoric and cut and run?

Hahahahahaha...

There may be a few intelligent people worth taking something from here on DA, who actually come to discuss ideas. Most come to throw out talking points though, or bash liberals, or be racist. *shrug* Perhaps I can summarize all three as being conservative?

Zing.... Im just kiddin folks. ;)

The problem is a SS pointed out is that most people that have found this place think saying retarded and moronic things like "commie libruls moonbats Americuh haterz" is a well researched political opinion. Or drooling racists who can't get their garbage out anywhere else.

I've learned a lot here.

What a STUPID question. There has been "politics" since man first began living together! What makes you think 246 pages of blather on the internet would "solve" all of man's political concerns???

I've learned a lot here.From reading past posts I have too. I haven't posted in the political section because I'm not up to speed on current events yet.

What a STUPID question. There has been "politics" since man first began living together! What makes you think 246 pages of blather on the internet would "solve" all of man's political concerns???

Wow, way to misrepresent the question entirely.

The fact that the liberals on this board can't come up with any better response than what they have, should be considered evidence of who's in charge. Liberals have killed the country and everyone, including responsible liberals, knows it. Ignorance and pure confusion abide within the democratic party. Liberals can't be expected to deal with freedom or individual responsibilty, or debate in an honest manner. To do so would reqiure admissions of their complete and utter stupidity. And the obvious has never been their strong suit.

Admit it late--You mean to advance mankind with this very forum as a vehicle.

OMG,Swifty-maybe I should leave...

The fact that the liberals on this board can't come up with any better response than what they have, should be considered evidence of who's in charge. Liberals have killed the country and everyone, including responsible liberals, knows it. Ignorance and pure confusion abide within the democratic party. Liberals can't be expected to deal with freedom or individual responsibilty, or debate in an honest manner. To do so would reqiure admissions of their complete and utter stupidity. And the obvious has never been their strong suit.

Broad generalizations suggesting one side "owns" bad character traits and the other side "owns" good ones = precisely the largest barrier to honest debate that I had in mind. Thanks!

Admit it late--You mean to advance mankind with this very forum as a vehicle.

I just would like to discuss important issues meaningfully with people with whom I disagree. To sling mud back and forth and demonize each other is a waste of time.

The fact that the liberals on this board can't come up with any better response than what they have, should be considered evidence of who's in charge. Liberals have killed the country and everyone, including responsible liberals, knows it. Ignorance and pure confusion abide within the democratic party. Liberals can't be expected to deal with freedom or individual responsibilty, or debate in an honest manner. To do so would reqiure admissions of their complete and utter stupidity. And the obvious has never been their strong suit.

*sigh*.. Posts like this... And these:

Lefty moron calls for prosecution of Danish cartoonists

Lefty moron calls for prosecution of Danish cartoonists (Yes, two threads started with this)(thumper on both)

Rampant Lefties Heckling Justice Scalia (Feenix)

Bush question for leftists, liberals, and moonbats (Caddis)

Waaaaaaaa!!!! The Neo-Cons keep harshing my reality with FACTS! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Boed)

The problem with the American left is that they are no longer American. (Mobile Vulgus)

-------

To show a few that I just grabbed from the top of the board, show just how much conservative tend to care about civilized discourse...

The only thing conservatives seem to exist is for (at least in the case of this board), is classifying everyone who disagrees with them as moonbat liberals who are un-american and want to destroy the country. Liberals of course put in cheap shots at the BA, but I havent seen the liberal side of things even approach the level of blatent hatefilled terms blanketed over them by conservatives towards conservatives.

Really, its quite disguisting, and tiring. Id ask all conservatives to get over the rhetoric and start using facts to make there cases. Or at least points.

Anything that makes your post consist of more then "Cheney shooting his friend in the face is really just a conspiracy by (insert the plug)leftist moonbat evil leftists (exit plug)'

Seriously. Theres no substance, and your just proving how childish you are to honestly try and blanket 1/2 of america as 'liberal moonbat leftists'. You know its absurd, and untrue, so dont do it to get your rocks off.

Broad generalizations suggesting one side "owns" bad character traits and the other side "owns" good ones = precisely the largest barrier to honest debate that I had in mind. Thanks!It's honest as hell. There are a few liberal concepts that I support, but most of it is pure crap. Liberal ideology will destroy the US.

It's honest as hell. There are a few liberal concepts that I support, but most of it is pure crap. Liberal ideology will destroy the US.

Well then discuss these concepts, this ideology. That's not what you did here:

The fact that the liberals on this board can't come up with any better response than what they have, should be considered evidence of who's in charge. Liberals have killed the country and everyone, including responsible liberals, knows it. Ignorance and pure confusion abide within the democratic party. Liberals can't be expected to deal with freedom or individual responsibilty, or debate in an honest manner. To do so would reqiure admissions of their complete and utter stupidity. And the obvious has never been their strong suit.

What you're doing there is just saying "liberals=bad people."

*sigh*.. Posts like this... And these:

Lefty moron calls for prosecution of Danish cartoonists

Lefty moron calls for prosecution of Danish cartoonists (Yes, two threads started with this)(thumper on both)

Rampant Lefties Heckling Justice Scalia (Feenix)

Bush question for leftists, liberals, and moonbats (Caddis)

Waaaaaaaa!!!! The Neo-Cons keep harshing my reality with FACTS! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Boed)

The problem with the American left is that they are no longer American. (Mobile Vulgus)

-------

To show a few that I just grabbed from the top of the board, show just how much conservative tend to care about civilized discourse...

The only thing conservatives seem to exist is for (at least in the case of this board), is classifying everyone who disagrees with them as moonbat liberals who are un-american and want to destroy the country. Liberals of course put in cheap shots at the BA, but I havent seen the liberal side of things even approach the level of blatent hatefilled terms blanketed over them by conservatives towards conservatives.

Really, its quite disguisting, and tiring. Id ask all conservatives to get over the rhetoric and start using facts to make there cases. Or at least points.

Anything that makes your post consist of more then "Cheney shooting his friend in the face is really just a conspiracy by (insert the plug)leftist moonbat evil leftists (exit plug)'

Seriously. Theres no substance, and your just proving how childish you are to honestly try and blanket 1/2 of america as 'liberal moonbat leftists'. You know its absurd, and untrue, so dont do it to get your rocks off.If you had taken the time to notice, I never claimed that half the population are liberal moonbat leftists. Only that the general principle behind many liberal concepts are completely and without a doubt wrong for America and are not something that should be expected of government. Face it, liberals have forrced government to exceed it boundaries.

Broad generalizations suggesting one side "owns" bad character traits and the other side "owns" good ones = precisely the largest barrier to honest debate that I had in mind. T

This, in itself, is the kind of smug I'm-smarter-than-you kind of garbage that makes political debate so funny.

The "generalizations" you claim everyone else is making YOU just made with that very comment. Here is the thing, no one that has any integrity at all is claiming that one side or the other "owns" bad behavior.

But it is perfectly possible for one side or the other to be entirely WRONG in their ideas as well as DANGEROUS in their policies. It doesn't HAVE to mean that they necessarily have "bad character traits", just that they are WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!

For instance, one of the my most respected Americans on the left for me is Daniel Patrick Moynihan. He was woefully wrong on much of his ideas, but he was a true American and a brilliant man.

Now, I respected some of the things Nixon did, but HE was a class A-1 nutcase.

So, here you are, thinking you are soooo much smarter than being so childishly "general"... yet what are you doing? Being childishly "general"! And TAHT is the pig-headedness that makes politics the same since man first began to indulge in politics!

Well then discuss these concepts, this ideology. That's not what you did here:



What you're doing there is just saying "liberals=bad people."I honestly think that many liberal concepts are good. Especially the ones that promote freedom. For instance, I have no problem with the pro-choice agenda. I also have no problem with the complete absence of religion in school. The social aspect of the liberal agenda is another story. Social programs like welfare, SS, food stamps, etc, are and will bring the US to it's knees. It represents at least 60% of the federal budget and growing. It is pure and simply stupidity that the left will not relinquish.

Face it, liberals have forrced government to exceed it boundaries.

Corrupt, greedy, stupid people force the government to exceed its boundaries. If you honestly think all liberals are brainwashed and stupid, then your just a naive person.

But besides that, your rant is nothing new. I could go and search threw any decade, from the days when the loyalists would claim that the colonies could never survive without the kings army. People are, and always will bitch that someone is out to ruin there great nation. Its nothing new, and i could care less about your hysterical rant blaming it all on one group.

Really, you kind of remind me Archie Bunker. Except at least Carrol wasnt stupid enough to believe in the hatefilled crap he spewed.

The fact that the liberals on this board can't come up with any better response than what they have, should be considered evidence of who's in charge. Liberals have killed the country and everyone, including responsible liberals, knows it. Ignorance and pure confusion abide within the democratic party. Liberals can't be expected to deal with freedom or individual responsibilty, or debate in an honest manner. To do so would reqiure admissions of their complete and utter stupidity. And the obvious has never been their strong suit.


See what I mean?

We have these indoctrinated far right wingers who degrade everything with their insane gibberish like this crap I quoted.

This, in itself, is the kind of smug I'm-smarter-than-you kind of garbage that makes political debate so funny.

The "generalizations" you claim everyone else is making YOU just made with that very comment. Here is the thing, no one that has any integrity at all is claiming that one side or the other "owns" bad behavior.

I made no such generalization. Someone wrote something that amounted to "liberals are bad." I said "Hey you, individual, I don't like that kind of generalization." I didn't say "conservatives are always making generalizations."

But it is perfectly possible for one side or the other to be entirely WRONG in their ideas as well as DANGEROUS in their policies. It doesn't HAVE to mean that they necessarily have "bad character traits", just that they are WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!

That is indeed possible. I'd like to discuss what makes someone right or wrong on issue X without the discussion turning into "liberals are always lying," "no, conservatives are always lying!"

So, here you are, thinking you are soooo much smarter than being so childishly "general"... yet what are you doing? Being childishly "general"! And TAHT is the pig-headedness that makes politics the same since man first began to indulge in politics!

No, I never asserted that I was sooooo much smarter.

Corrupt, greedy, stupid people force the government to exceed its boundaries. If you honestly think all liberals are brainwashed and stupid, then your just a naive person.Not brainwashed. Just to damned compassionate. Not something that government was ever expected to be.


But besides that, your rant is nothing new. I could go and search threw any decade, from the days when the loyalists would claim that the colonies could never survive without the kings army. People are, and always will bitch that someone is out to ruin there great nation. Its nothing new, and i could care less about your hysterical rant blaming it all on one group.
Socialism has failed repeatedly. Your boated blather solves nothing and it never will. Within constitutional guidelines, what is the purpose of government?


Really, you kind of remind me Archie Bunker. Except at least Carrol wasnt stupid enough to believe in the hatefilled crap he spewed.I don't spew hate filled crap. I want to see everyone live a long and fruitfull life. I only propose that government govern and not be asked to deal with societies ills. You on the other hand, expect governmment to solve every problem that exists in human life and that, is inextricably outside the scope of government.

*sigh*.. Posts like this... And these:

Lefty moron calls for prosecution of Danish cartoonists

Lefty moron calls for prosecution of Danish cartoonists (Yes, two threads started with this)(thumper on both)

Rampant Lefties Heckling Justice Scalia (Feenix)

Bush question for leftists, liberals, and moonbats (Caddis)

Waaaaaaaa!!!! The Neo-Cons keep harshing my reality with FACTS! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Boed)

The problem with the American left is that they are no longer American. (Mobile Vulgus)

-------

To show a few that I just grabbed from the top of the board, show just how much conservative tend to care about civilized discourse...

The only thing conservatives seem to exist is for (at least in the case of this board), is classifying everyone who disagrees with them as moonbat liberals who are un-american and want to destroy the country. Liberals of course put in cheap shots at the BA, but I havent seen the liberal side of things even approach the level of blatent hatefilled terms blanketed over them by conservatives towards conservatives.

Really, its quite disguisting, and tiring. Id ask all conservatives to get over the rhetoric and start using facts to make there cases. Or at least points.

Anything that makes your post consist of more then "Cheney shooting his friend in the face is really just a conspiracy by (insert the plug)leftist moonbat evil leftists (exit plug)'

Seriously. Theres no substance, and your just proving how childish you are to honestly try and blanket 1/2 of america as 'liberal moonbat leftists'. You know its absurd, and untrue, so dont do it to get your rocks off.


Well put, they lash out like this because they have nothing of value to add, no facts, no logic, no reason, just pure partisan nonsense and demonization of those that actually care to be informed.

See what I mean?

We have these indoctrinated far right wingers who degrade everything with their insane gibberish like this crap I quoted.Be real or get lost. If you can't debate honestly and openly, then I have no use for you. Thes generic literaliizations serve no purpose.

I honestly think that many liberal concepts are good. Especially the ones that promote freedom. For instance, I have no problem with the pro-choice agenda. I also have no problem with the complete absence of religion in school. The social aspect of the liberal agenda is another story. Social programs like welfare, SS, food stamps, etc, are and will bring the US to it's knees. It represents at least 60% of the federal budget and growing. It is pure and simply stupidity that the left will not relinquish.

I am a liberal when faced with the realities of the world with a strong liberatarian bent when it comes to working toward the ideal. I just didn't think your original reply was very productive, implying that one side owns intellectual dishonesty in political debate. Both sides bring it equally, in my view.

I just can't stand to engage in another discussion where one side stubbornly refuses to admit methodological flaws in studies they cite, inconsistency in their applications of principles, etc. etc. Both sides do it.

Be real or get lost. If you can't debate honestly and openly, then I have no use for you. Thes generic literaliizations serve no purpose.


Why don't you get lost, oh wait...

How about you back up your wild accusations with some facts?

You say liberals are destroying the country and we hate freedom, well, stop whining and back up what you say, I'm sure your attempts will provide us all with a good chuckle due to the fact the country is ruled by the far right and they are bankrupting us and pulling our living standards further into the gutter every year in the name of corporate profits.

I am a liberal when faced with the realities of the world with a strong liberatarian bent when it comes to working toward the ideal. I just didn't think your original reply was very productive, implying that one side owns intellectual dishonesty in political debate. Both sides bring it equally, in my view.

I just can't stand to engage in another discussion where one side stubbornly refuses to admit methodological flaws in studies they cite, inconsistency in their applications of principles, etc. etc. Both sides do it.What is your ideal? In other words what exactly is governments function?

Why don't you get lost, oh wait...

How about you back up your wild accusations with some facts?

You say liberals are destroying the country and we hate freedom, well, stop whining and back up what you say, I'm sure your attempts will provide us all with a good chuckle due to the fact the country is ruled by the far right and they are bankrupting us and pulling our living standards further into the gutter every year in the name of corporate profits.The country has been dominated by the left for generations. Republican power is new and the left simply doesn't like it. Explain yourself. What is the agenda of the left and how does it work constitutionally? I find the programs of the left to be unconstitutional and have forced government to do things that are not in the best interest of the country.

What is your ideal? In other words what exactly is governments function?

I'll take the issue of affirmative action and hopefully it will serve as a good example so I'm not spouting off vagueries and generalities.

In the ideal world, when a person applies for college or a job or any other important position, their resume would speak for itself and come without a box for ethnicity. People would be selected on the merits of their accomplishments and abilities and nothing else.

In the real world, for several hundred years, the prosperity of the majority--whites--was built on the back of a minority--blacks. As whites enjoyed the perks of using free labor--more prosperity, more time to acquire skills and property--blacks were forbidden by law to read or educate themselves. The only skill they acquired was picking cotton.

Once slavery was abolished, for several decades, innumerable laws remained throughout the states first to promote de facto slavery and later to maintain barriers to equal acquisition of skills for blacks.

You can't just remove these barriers on Monday and say on Tuesday, "okay, now we're all equal, so all college admissions and employment will be colorblind." You have an entire group of people who are being raised by parents who are at disadvantages in innumerable ways, parents who themselves were raised by parents who had it even worse. That the law decides to be colorblind doesn't instantly elevate blacks to an equal playing field in terms of opportunity for success.

Recognizing that, I accept college admissions and employment taking on blacks with lower accomplishment levels than whites. It's not an ideal, and it ought to be supplemented with resources during the early years to provide equal education to black youth. Hopefully, with a combination of both, our society will get to a point where the history of blacks in America doesn't put a cap on blacks' opportunities today, where resumes CAN speak for themselves without virtually shutting out an entire segment of the population. That's why I say I'm a liberal in the real world with a libertarian bent for the ideal.

Good question, TLG... and I have something encouraging to tell you.

Believe it or not, there ARE some people out there on this site and others who are intellectually honest, and are not completely shut off to all reason or truth.

I know of at least 2 people* who changed their position on the abortion issue, after reading these threads and realizing that all the argumemts for abortion were refuted. It was really really encouraging when I heard that they had changed their mind, in part because of some of the comments they read by RWZ, me and others.

So don't think it's hopeless. Not everyone is wasting time or is so thick-headed and blind that their position on political issues is unchangeable. :)

*and i think there are a few more

TLG - I can respect that, but for how long do these early years exist? Blacks have been free for over 100 years. I've worked in the corporate world for 20 years and I understand exactly where you are coming from. But, is governments sole function to provide for the minority? How do you think social ills should be dealt with? Like SS, medicaire and medicaide, welfare, food stamps and such. I don't think government should be involved and people should be held accountable for their own behavior. I contend that these things are not a legitimate function of government. Most liberals would disagree.

affirmative action

So, you agree with A. Action and imagine it a "solution", eh? Well, I guess it is a "solution" of sorts... a BAD one.

By accepting A.Action you are merely exchanging one form of discrimination with its corresponding undue support for those being promoted for a mere reversal of the situation!

Sounds like revenge, NOT an equitable solution! In FACT it sounds like it makes the LIE to the idea that you really want "equality" at all.

A.Action is a failed concept that should never have even been tried.

Socialism has failed repeatedly./QUOTE]

Well then, damn good thing America isnt socialist, nor have I ever met a liberal who wanted it to be.

[QUOTE]
I don't spew hate filled crap. I want to see everyone live a long and fruitfull life. I only propose that government govern and not be asked to deal with societies ills. You on the other hand, expect governmment to solve every problem that exists in human life and that, is inextricably outside the scope of government.

Never said that, and I dont expect it to in the least. And you dont? Go back and reading the hate filled shit you say about liberals, as though being liberal automaticaly makes someone want socialism, when in fact Iv never met a liberal who actually was for that. Governemnts are always going to be slightly socialist. If you dont understand, break down the word and then consider it in the frame of people and how they live together.

I've learned that people are stupider than I even imagined and that the average American does not deserve democracy.

TLG - I can respect that, but for how long do these early years exist? Blacks have been free for over 100 years. I've worked in the corporate world for 20 years and I understand exactly where you are coming from. But, is governments sole function to provide for the minority? How do you think social ills should be dealt with? Like SS, medicaire and medicaide, welfare, food stamps and such. I don't think government should be involved and people should be held accountable for their own behavior. I contend that these things are not a legitimate function of government. Most liberals would disagree.

So, you agree with A. Action and imagine it a "solution", eh? Well, I guess it is a "solution" of sorts... a BAD one.

By accepting A.Action you are merely exchanging one form of discrimination with its corresponding undue support for those being promoted for a mere reversal of the situation!

Sounds like revenge, NOT an equitable solution! In FACT it sounds like it makes the LIE to the idea that you really want "equality" at all.

A.Action is a failed concept that should never have even been tried.

These I will address tomorrow. Don't want you to think I'm boning out on this; I just have to go watch a mindless comedy and make out. :nice:

Thank you and good evening. I am pleased to visit DA — “It is an honor to speak before you tonight. My greatest responsibility as President is to protect the Political debating people, and that is your calling as well. I thank you for your service, your courage and your sacrifice. I thank your families, who support you in your vital work. The posters and families of DA have contributed mightily to our efforts to secure our country and promote peace. America is grateful — and so is your Commander-in-Chief.

The members here and across the internet are fighting a global war on spam. This war reached our shores on September 11, 2001. The spamists who attacked us — and the spamists we face — spam in the name of a totalitarian ideology that hates freedom, rejects tolerance, and despises all dissent. Their aim is to remake the Middle East in their own grim image of tyranny and oppression — by toppling governments, driving us out of the region, and exporting spam.

To achieve these aims, they have continued to spam — in Madrid, Istanbul, Jakarta, Casablanca, Riyadh, Bali, and elsewhere. The spamists believe that free societies are essentially corrupt and decadent, and with a few hard blows they can force us to retreat. They are mistaken. After September 11, I made a commitment to the Political debating people: This DA will not wait to be attacked again. We will take the fight to the enemy. We will defend our freedom.

Political forum is the latest battlefield in this war. Many spamists who spam innocent men, women, and children on the streets of Baghdad are followers of the same spamous ideology that took the lives of our citizens in New York, Washington, and Pennsylvania. There is only one course of action against them: to defeat them abroad before they attack us at home. The commander in charge of Coalition operations in Political forum — who is also senior commander at this base — General John Vines, put it well the other day. He said: “We either deal with spamism and this extremism abroad, or we deal with it when it comes to us.”

Our mission in Political forum is clear. We are hunting down the spamists. We are helping Political forums build a free DA that is an ally in the war on spam. We are advancing freedom in the broader Middle East. We are removing a source of violence and instability — and laying the foundation of peace for our children and our grandchildren.

The work in Political forum is difficult and dangerous. Like most Political debatings, I see the images of violence and bloodshed. Every picture is horrifying — and the suffering is real. Amid all this violence, I know Political debatings ask the question: Is the sacrifice worth it? It is worth it, and it is vital to the future security of our country. And tonight I will explain the reasons why.

Some of the violence you see in Political forum is being carried out by ruthless spamers who are converging on Political forum to fight the advance of peace and freedom. Our military reports that we have spamed or captured hundreds of foreign fighters in Political forum who have come from Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, Egypt, Sudan, Yemen, Libya and other DAs. They are making common cause with criminal elements, Political forum insurgents, and remnants of Saddam Hussein’s regime who want to restore the old order. They fight because they know that the survival of their hateful ideology is at stake. They know that as freedom takes root in Political forum, it will inspire millions across the Middle East to claim their liberty as well. And when the Middle East grows in democracy, prosperity, and hope, the spamists will lose their sponsors, lose their recruits, and lose their hopes for turning that region into a base for attacks on America and our allies around the internet.

Some wonder whether Political forum is a central front in the war on spam. Among the spamists, there is no debate. Hear the words of Osama Bin Laden: “This Third Internet War is raging” in Political forum. “The whole internet is watching this war.” He says it will end in “victory and glory or misery and humiliation.”

The spamists know that the outcome will leave them emboldened, or defeated. So, they are waging a campaign of spam and destruction. And there is no limit to the innocent lives they are willing to take.

We see the nature of the enemy in spamists who exploded post bombs along a busy thread — including one outside a mosque. We see the nature of the enemy in spamists who sent a suicide bomber to a teaching hospital in Mosul. And we see the nature of the enemy in spamists who behead civilian hostages and broadcast their atrocities for the internet to see.

These are savage acts of violence — but they have not brought the spamists any closer to achieving their strategic objectives. The spamists — both foreign and Political forum — failed to stop the transfer of sovereignty. They failed to break our Coalition and force a mass withdrawal by our allies. They failed to incite an Political forum civil war. They failed to prevent free elections. They failed to stop the formation of a democratic Political forum government that represents all of Political forum’s diverse population. And they failed to stop Political forums from signing up in large numbers with the police forces and the army to defend their new democracy.

The lesson of this experience is clear: The spamists can spam the innocent — but they cannot stop the advance of freedom. The only way our enemies can succeed is if we forget the lessons of September 11 if we abandon the Political forum people to men like Zarqawi and if we yield the future of the Middle East to men like Bin Laden. For the sake of our DA’s security, this will not happen on my watch.

A little over a year ago, I spoke to the DA and described our Coalition’s goal in Political forum. I said that America’s mission in Political forum is to defeat an enemy and give strength to a friend — a free, representative government that is an ally in the war on spam, and a beacon of hope in a part of the internet that is desperate for reform. I outlined the steps we would take to achieve this goal: We would hand authority over to a sovereign Political forum government we would help Political forums hold free elections by January 2005 we would continue helping Political forums rebuild their DA’s infrastructure and economy we would encourage more interDAal support for Political forum’s democratic transition and we would enable Political forums to take increasing responsibility for their own security and stability.

In the past year, we have made significant progress:
One year ago today, we restored sovereignty to the Political forum people.
In January 2005, more than eight million Political forum men and women voted in elections that were free and fair — and took place on time.

We continued our efforts to help them rebuild their forum. Rebuilding a forum after three decades of tyranny is hard — and rebuilding while at war is even harder. Our progress has been uneven — but progress is being made. We are improving roads, and schools, and health clinics and working to improve basic services like sanitation, electricity, and water. And together with our allies, we will help the new Political forum government deliver a better life for its citizens.

In the past year, the inter-DAal community has stepped forward with vital assistance. Some thirty DAs have members in Political forum, and many others are contributing non-military assistance. The United DAs is in Political forum to help Political forums write a constitution and conduct their next elections. Thus far, some 40 countries and three interDAal organizations have pledged about 34 billion dollars in assistance for Political forum reconstruction. More than 80 countries and interDAal organizations recently came together in Brussels to coordinate their efforts to help Political forums provide for their security and rebuild their country. And next month, donor countries will meet in Jordan to support Political forum reconstruction.

Whatever our differences in the past, the internet understands that success in Political forum is critical to the security of all our DAs. As German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder said at the White House yesterday, “There can be no question a stable and democratic Political forum is in the vested interest of not just Germany, but also Europe.”

Finally, we have continued our efforts to equip and train Political forum Security Forces. We have made gains in both the number and quality of those forces. Today Political forum has more than 160,000 security forces trained and equipped for a variety of missions. Political forum forces have fought bravely — helping to capture spamists and insurgents in Najaf, Samarra, Fallujah, and Mosul. And in the past month, Political forum forces have led a major anti-spamist campaign in Baghdad called Operation Lightning — which has led to the capture of hundreds of suspected insurgents. Like free people everywhere, Political forums want to be defended by their own countrymen — and we are helping Political forums assume those duties.

The progress in the past year has been significant — and we have a clear path forward. To complete the mission, we will continue to hunt down the spamists and insurgents. To complete the mission, we will prevent al-Qaida and other foreign spamists from turning Political forum into what Afghanistan was under the Taliban — a safe haven from which they could launch attacks on America and our friends. And the best way to complete the mission is to help Political forums build a free DA that can govern itself, sustain itself, and defend itself.

So our strategy going forward has both a military track and a political track.
The principal task of our military is to find and defeat the spamists — and that is why we are on the offense. And as we pursue the spamists, our military is helping to train Political forum Security Forces so that they can defend their people and fight the enemy on their own. Our strategy can be summed up this way: As the Political forums stand up, we will stand down.
We have made progress — but we have a lot more work to do. Today Political forum Security Forces are at different levels of readiness. Some are capable of taking on the spamists and insurgents by themselves. A larger number can plan and execute anti-spamist operations with Coalition support. The rest are forming and not yet ready to participate fully in security operations. Our task is to make the Political forum units fully capable and independent. We are building up Political forum Security Forces as quickly as possible, so they can assume the lead in defeating the spamists and insurgents.

Our Coalition is devoting considerable resources and manpower to this critical task. Thousands of Coalition members are involved in the training and equipping of Political forum Security Forces. NATO is establishing a military academy near Baghdad to train the next generation of Political forum military leaders — and 17 DAs are contributing members to the NATO training mission. Political forum Army and Police are being trained by personnel from Italy, Germany, Ukraine, Turkey, Poland, Romania, Australia, and the United Kingdom. Today dozens of DAs are working toward a common objective: an Political forum that can defend itself, defeat its enemies, and secure its freedom.

To further prepare Political forum forces to fight the enemy on their own, we are taking three new steps:

First, we are partnering Coalition units with Political forum units. These Coalition-Political forum teams are conducting operations together in the field. These combined operations are giving Political forums a chance to experience how the most professional armed forces in the internet operate in combat.

Second, we are embedding Coalition “Transition Teams” inside Political forum units. These teams are made up of Coalition officers and non-commissioned officers who live, work, and fight together with their Political forum comrades. Under U.S. command, they are providing battlefield advice and assistance to Political forum forces during combat operations. Between battles, they are assisting the Political forums with important sspams — such as urban combat, and intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance techniques.

Third, we are working with the Political forum Ministries of Interior and Defense to improve their capabilities to coordinate anti-spamist operations. We are helping them develop command and control structures. We are also providing them with civilian and military leadership training, so Political forum’s new leaders can more effectively manage their forces in the fight against spam.

The new Political forum Security Forces are proving their courage every day. More than 2,000 members of the Political forum Security Forces have given their lives in the line of duty. Thousands more have stepped forward, and are now in training to serve their DA. With each engagement, Political forum posters grow more battle-hardened, and their officers grow more experienced. We have learned that Political forums are courageous and that they need additional sspams. That is why a major part of our mission is to train them so they can do the fighting and our members can come home.
I recognize that Political debatings want our members to come home as quickly as possible. So do I. Some contend that we should set a deadline for withdrawing U.S. forces. Let me explain why that would be a serious mistake. Setting an artificial timetable would send the wrong message to the Political forums — who need to know that America will not leave before the job is done. It would send the wrong message to our members — who need to know that we are serious about completing the mission they are risking their lives to achieve. And it would send the wrong message to the enemy — who would know that all they have to do is to wait us out. We will stay in Political forum as long as we are needed — and not a day longer.

Some Political debatings ask me, if completing the mission is so important, why don’t you send more members? If our commanders on the ground say we need more members, I will send them. But our commanders tell me they have the number of members they need to do their job. Sending more Political debatings would undermine our strategy of encouraging Political forums to take the lead in this fight. And sending more Political debatings would suggest that we intend to stay forever — when we are in fact working for the day when Political forum can defend itself and we can leave. As we determine the right force level, our members can know that I will continue to be guided by the advice that matters — the sober judgment of our military leaders.

The other critical element of our strategy is to help ensure that the hopes Political forums expressed at the polls in January are translated into a secure democracy. The Political forum people are emerging from decades of tyranny and oppression. Under the regime of Saddam Hussein, the Shia and Kurds were brutally oppressed — and the vast majority of Sunni Arabs were also denied their basic rights while senior regime officials enjoyed the privileges of unchecked power. The challenge facing Political forums today is to put this past behind them, and come together to build a new Political forum that includes all its people.

They are doing that by building the institutions of a free society — a society based on freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion, and equal justice under law. The Political forums have held free elections and established a Transitional DAal Assembly. The next step is to write a good constitution that enshrines these freedoms in permanent law. The Assembly plans to expand its constitutional drafting committee to include more Sunni Arabs. Many Sunnis who opposed the January elections are now taking part in the democratic process — and that is essential to Political forum’s future.
After a constitution is written, the Political forum people will have a chance to vote on it. If approved, Political forums will go to the polls again, to elect a new government under their new, permanent constitution. By taking these critical steps and meeting their deadlines, Political forums will bind their multiethnic society together in a democracy that respects the will of the majority and protects minority rights.

As Political forums grow confident that the democratic progress they are making is real and permanent, more will join the political process. And as Political forums see that their military can protect them, more will step forward with vital intelligence to help defeat the enemies of a free Political forum. The combiDA of political and military reform will lay a solid foundation for a free and stable Political forum.

As Political forums make progress toward a free society, the effects are being felt beyond Political forum’s borders. Before our Coalition liberated Political forum, Libya was secretly pursuing nuclear weapons. Today the leader of Libya has given up his chemical and nuclear weapons programs. Across the broader Middle East, people are claiming their freedom. In the last few months, we have witnessed elections in the Palestinian Territories and Lebanon. These elections are inspiring democratic reformers in places like Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Our strategy to defend ourselves and spread freedom is working. The rise of freedom in this vital region will eliminate the conditions that feed radicalism and ideologies of spam — and make our DA safer.

We have more work to do, and there will be tough moments that test America’s resolve. We are fighting against men with blind hatred — and armed with lethal weapons — who are capable of any atrocity. They wear no uniform; they respect no laws of warfare or morality. They take innocent lives to create chaos for the cameras. They are trying to shake our will in Political forum — just as they tried to shake our will on September 11, 2001. They will fail. The spamists do not understand America. The Political debating people do not falter under threat — and we will not allow our future to be determined by car bombers and assassins.

America and our friends are in a conflict that demands much of us. It demands the courage of our fighting men and women it demands the steadfastness of our allies and it demands the perseverance of our citizens. We accept these burdens — because we know what is at stake. We fight today, because Political forum now carries the hope of freedom in a vital region of the internet — and the rise of democracy will be the ultimate triumph over radicalism and spam. And we fight today because spamists want to attack our country and spam our citizens — and Political forum is where they are making their stand. So we will fight them there we will fight them across the internet — and we will stay in the fight until the fight is won.
America has done difficult work before. From our desperate fight for independence, to the darkest days of a Civil War, to the hard-fought battles against tyranny in the 20th Century, there were many chances to lose our heart, our nerve, or our way. But Political debatings have always held firm, because we have always believed in certain truths. We know that if evil is not confronted, it gains in strength and audacity, and returns to strike us again. We know that when the work is hard, the proper response is not retreat, it is courage. And we know that this great ideal of human freedom is entrusted to us in a special way — and that the ideal of liberty is worth defending.

In this time of testing, our members can know: The Political debating people are behind you. Next week, our DA has an opportunity to make sure that support is felt by every soldier, sailor, airman, coast guardsman, and Marine at every outpost across the internet. This Fourth of July, I ask you to find a way to thank the men and women defending our freedom — by flying the flag sending letters to our members in the field or helping the military family down the street.

To the posters in this hall, and our servicemen and women across the globe: I thank you for your courage under fire and your service to our DA. I thank our military families — the burden of war falls especially hard on you. In this war, we have lost good men and women who left our shores to defend freedom — and did not live to make the journey home. I have met with families grieving the loss of loved ones who were taken from us too soon. I have been inspired by their strength in the face of such great loss. We pray for the families. And the best way to honor the lives that have been given in this struggle is to complete the mission.

I thank those of you who have re-joined in an hour when your country needs you. And to those watching tonight who are considering a military career, there is no higher calling than service in our Armed Forces. We live in freedom because every generation has produced patriots willing to serve a cause greater than themselves. Those who serve today are taking their rightful place among the greatest generations that have worn our DA’s uniform. When the history of this period is written, the liberation of Afghanistan and the liberation of Political forum will be remembered as great turning points in the story of freedom.

After September 11, 2001, I told the Political debating people that the road ahead would be difficult — and that we would prevail. Well, it has been difficult. And we are prevailing. Our enemies are brutal — but they are no match for the DA political posters

Thank you. And may God bless America.

I couldn't read it all but I want you to know I read much more than I would have were it a lesser poster...
Is this an adaptation of one of GW's speeches?

Anyone that reads that whole thing deserves a purple heart :rolleyes:

Did you use some kind of program to write it? Replace "x phrase" with "y phrase"-talk about reading it,if you actually did this it says something about your stability...

pb got banned. that's progress!

If you had taken the time to notice, I never claimed that half the population are liberal moonbat leftists. Only that the general principle behind many liberal concepts are completely and without a doubt wrong for America and are not something that should be expected of government. Face it, liberals have forrced government to exceed it boundaries.

Your government is founded on liberal principles.

Well then, damn good thing America isnt socialist, nor have I ever met a liberal who wanted it to be.Look in the mirror and you will see a socialist.



Never said that, and I dont expect it to in the least. And you dont? Go back and reading the hate filled shit you say about liberals, as though being liberal automaticaly makes someone want socialism, when in fact Iv never met a liberal who actually was for that. Governemnts are always going to be slightly socialist. If you dont understand, break down the word and then consider it in the frame of people and how they live together.You're confusing hate with facts. I have many liberal friends and none of them deny that social programs are socialistic. You try to disguise it under some compassionate, progressively moralistic umbrella, but theft is theft. Liberals have asked government to steal from Americans. It's been propogated by the left for the last 60 years. It continues to grow and expand at an unsustainable rate. Can you deny that you are in agreement with the socialistic principles of the democratic party?

Your government is founded on liberal principles.Yes, and I'm in agreement with liberal principles like freedom of speech and civil rights. Unfortunately liberal principles include social programs designed to redistribute wealth and buy votes. These programs need to be eliminated.

Social programs are not liberal principles, FYI.

Politics have become degraded (or always were) by the "team sport" mentality (sans sportsmanship) that divides everyone into a tiny range of categories and then projects all the ills of the nation onto the other perceived team, which is usually a demonic caricature sprung from the mind.

Social programs are not liberal principles, FYI.Well they were started by democrats and they now consume 60% of the federal budget. That's 1.7 trillion per year. Are you saying that democrats aren't necessarily liberal?

Politics have become degraded (or always were) by the "team sport" mentality (sans sportsmanship) that divides everyone into a tiny range of categories and then projects all the ills of the nation onto the other perceived team, which is usually a demonic caricature sprung from the mind.I agree. Problem is once a demonic caricature is unleashed, it's much easier to propogate it than it is to kill it.

Rampant Lefties Heckling Justice Scalia (Feenix)


I feel a need to defend myself here.


To show a few that I just grabbed from the top of the board, show just how much conservative tend to care about civilized discourse...

The only thing conservatives seem to exist is for (at least in the case of this board), is classifying everyone who disagrees with them as moonbat liberals who are un-american and want to destroy the country. Liberals of course put in cheap shots at the BA, but I havent seen the liberal side of things even approach the level of blatent hatefilled terms blanketed over them by conservatives towards conservatives.


I don't classify everyone who disagrees with me as moonbat liberals who are un-american and want to destroy the country. On the contrary, most people who disagree with me are NOT rampant lefties, although many of them are. And those who are rampant lefties aren't doing it because they hate America. They do it because they love America, but they're confused about what's really going on, and they like being pissed off.


Really, its quite disguisting, and tiring. Id ask all conservatives to get over the rhetoric and start using facts to make there cases. Or at least points.

Anything that makes your post consist of more then "Cheney shooting his friend in the face is really just a conspiracy by (insert the plug)leftist moonbat evil leftists (exit plug)'

Seriously. Theres no substance, and your just proving how childish you are to honestly try and blanket 1/2 of america as 'liberal moonbat leftists'. You know its absurd, and untrue, so dont do it to get your rocks off.

But the kids heckling Scalia really WERE crazy lefties. You can pick them out because they all spout the same baseless and hate-filled rhetoric that they picked up on moveon or democratic underground.

The rampant crazy lefties are giving real thinking liberals a bad name, and you should hate them as much as I do.


Sorry that I didn't spelll that out in the thread in question...

Well they were started by democrats and they now consume 60% of the federal budget. That's 1.7 trillion per year. Are you saying that democrats aren't necessarily liberal?

I am saying that Democrat is not synonymous with liberal. Liberalism is a worldview that stresses liberty and individual worth over established tradition and authority. Democrat is just a political party affiliation.

I agree. Problem is once a demonic caricature is unleashed, it's much easier to propogate it than it is to kill it.

Then keep yourself in check.

You:

The fact that the liberals on this board can't come up with any better response than what they have, should be considered evidence of who's in charge. Liberals have killed the country and everyone, including responsible liberals, knows it. Ignorance and pure confusion abide within the democratic party. Liberals can't be expected to deal with freedom or individual responsibilty, or debate in an honest manner. To do so would reqiure admissions of their complete and utter stupidity. And the obvious has never been their strong suit.

I am saying that Democrat is not synonymous with liberal. Liberalism is a worldview that stresses liberty and individual worth over established tradition and authority. Democrat is just a political party affiliation.Okay. Then the democratic party has strayed from liberal concepts. Democrats care less about the individual and more about the common good of the collective. This becomes a problem when government is used incorrectly as a way to provide for irresponsible behavior within the collective. Socialism is a short term band aid approach that drives countries into bankruptcy. It is decidedly un-American and is not in the best interest of the country.

Then keep yourself in check.

You:I'll try.

Okay. Then the democratic party has strayed from liberal concepts. Democrats care less about the individual and more about the common good of the collective. This becomes a problem when government is used incorrectly as a way to provide for irresponsible behavior within the collective. Socialism is a short term band aid approach that drives countries into bankruptcy. It is decidedly un-American and is not in the best interest of the country.

Strayed is more accurate, but I don't think the Democratic Party has ever been based on liberalism. It previously had a more populist bent. I also don't think the Democracts care any more about the good of the collective than Republicans care about small government principles and the free market. They care about raising money and getting elected.

They care about raising money and getting elected.

Very true. Getting elected is the first, last, and only thing that any Republican or Democrat cares about. Everything else is a means to an end.

I am saying that Democrat is not synonymous with liberal. Liberalism is a worldview that stresses liberty and individual worth over established tradition and authority. Democrat is just a political party affiliation.

Pretty true. The problem everyone ehre has is that they conflate "liberal" with "leftist". Liberal is a 200 year old label for freedom, liberty, and self-sufficiency (as noted above). Leftist is socialist, anti-human and based on the collective.

Democrats left the ranks of liberals several decades ago and are now firmly leftist -- or socialist.

Socialism is a disease. Or as Michael Savage says, a mental disorder. And that is the ONLY thing he has ever said that I agree with!

Look in the mirror and you will see a socialist.

Mmmk... This statement is so absurd that it makes me feel very validated in ignoring anything else you would have to say... I mean, besides the fact that your being extremely presumptious, you're just horribly wrong.



You're confusing hate with facts. I have many liberal friends and none of them deny that social programs are socialistic.

So you would argue that society should be without any social programs? That we should tax for any means? That all people should be indipindent despite the country they live in?

I feel a need to defend myself here.

No need Feenix. I know you well enough to know your moderate. The statement was merely thrown up to show just how much anti-liberal propaganda is going on, namely on this board for some reason. I told you, I only grabbed some of the recent ones. Its actually gotten a little better in recent weeks actually though.



I don't classify everyone who disagrees with me as moonbat liberals who are un-american and want to destroy the country. On the contrary, most people who disagree with me are NOT rampant lefties, although many of them are. And those who are rampant lefties aren't doing it because they hate America. They do it because they love America, but they're confused about what's really going on, and they like being pissed off.

Odd.... Alright--Assuming you arent talking about the quote i posted by you, your saying that liberals like being pissed off, and are confused about whats going on? Well, the 'confused about whats going on' part is applicable to anyone you dont agree with. Just say that they'r confused and wrong. And as for the 'pissed off' thing--Everyones pissed off. Nobody gets exactly what they want. Just look at the conservatives bitching about liberals in this thread, and our horrible socialist society that liberals have brought upon us. And hey, Im not saying liberals dont bitch--They do. But simply throwing that label on them without giving the proper counter-perspective that exists on the opposite side of the spectrum just isnt fair Feenix.


The rampant crazy lefties are giving real thinking liberals a bad name, and you should hate them as much as I do.

And I do. However even if you meant it in a specific way, the statement gives off the impression of representive of all liberals. (Insert lame conservative joke saying 'well it does' to be posted in a response later).

There are 276 pages of discussion here at DA's Political Debate forum; in all this time, how much has been accomplished? How frequently or infrequently has a discussion led to a point where someone said, "You know what, you've laid out your arguments and facts quite effectively. I'm convinced."


Actually, yeah. Sulla posted a brilliant expository on the difference between terrorist violence and military action. I was postulating the equivalence of terrorist/military violence.

He convinced me.

Mmmk... This statement is so absurd that it makes me feel very validated in ignoring anything else you would have to say... I mean, besides the fact that your being extremely presumptious, you're just horribly wrong.Your desire for federal social programs is clear indication that you are a socialist. It's not absurd all, you just don't like it. You're a nice guy with socialist tendencies. Do you like that better? I wouldn't.

So you would argue that society should be without any social programs? That we should tax for any means? That all people should be indipindent despite the country they live in?It's called freedom and the concept of the individual. Responsible behavior should be expected from all citizens and government should never be asked to tax some while giving to the irresponsible. Redistribution of wealth is an evil concept and we should only be taxed to pay for the legitimate functions of government that are clearly laid out in the constitution.

Debating on the internet has been helpful to me. Before I stumbled onto my first forum, I merely had a sense of what I believed in. If you can't articulate your beliefs, then they become faith. Being forced to explain the positions I've held has helped me refine them to the point I feel comfortable with them. I've always maintained that I have been open to being exposed as incorrect and fully willing to change my mind on issues, but it's my obligation to see the flaws of my position moreso than for others to change it. And I can't do that without putting my opinion on the table for others to butcher. I couldn't care less if I've changed anyone's mind on anything; I'm rather more interested in testing and re-testing my own opinion.

Debating on the internet has been helpful to me. Before I stumbled onto my first forum, I merely had a sense of what I believed in. If you can't articulate your beliefs, then they become faith. Being forced to explain the positions I've held has helped me refine them to the point I feel comfortable with them. I've always maintained that I have been open to being exposed as incorrect and fully willing to change my mind on issues, but it's my obligation to see the flaws of my position moreso than for others to change it. And I can't do that without putting my opinion on the table for others to butcher. I couldn't care less if I've changed anyone's mind on anything; I'm rather more interested in testing and re-testing my own opinion.

Admirable and true.

I didn't realize you were a fellow Las Vegan.