by Paul E. Schroeder
Washington Post

Early on Aug. 3, 2005, we heard that 14 Marines had been killed in Haditha, Iraq. Our son, Lance Cpl. Edward "Augie" Schroeder II, was stationed there. At 10:45 a.m. two Marines showed up at our door. After collecting himself for what was clearly painful duty, the lieutenant colonel said, "Your son is a true American hero."

Since then, two reactions to Augie's death have compounded the sadness.

At times like this, people say, "He died a hero." I know this is meant with great sincerity. We appreciate the many condolences we have received and how helpful they have been. But when heard repeatedly, the phrases "he died a hero" or "he died a patriot" or "he died for his country" rub raw.

"People think that if they say that, somehow it makes it okay that he died," our daughter, Amanda, has said. "He was a hero before he died, not just because he went to Iraq. I was proud of him before, and being a patriot doesn't make his death okay. I'm glad he got so much respect at his funeral, but that didn't make it okay either."

The words "hero" and "patriot" focus on the death, not the life. They are a flag-draped mask covering the truth that few want to acknowledge openly: Death in battle is tragic no matter what the reasons for the war. The tragedy is the life that was lost, not the manner of death. Families of dead soldiers on both sides of the battle line know this. Those without family in the war don't appreciate the difference.

This leads to the second reaction. Since August we have witnessed growing opposition to the Iraq war, but it is often whispered, hands covering mouths, as if it is dangerous to speak too loudly. Others discuss the never-ending cycle of death in places such as Haditha in academic and sometimes clinical fashion, as in "the increasing lethality of improvised explosive devices."

Listen to the kinds of things that most Americans don't have to experience: The day Augie's unit returned from Iraq to Camp Lejeune, we received a box with his notebooks, DVDs and clothes from his locker in Iraq. The day his unit returned home to waiting families, we received the second urn of ashes. This lad of promise, of easy charm and readiness to help, whose highest high was saving someone using CPR as a first aid squad volunteer, came home in one coffin and two urns. We buried him in three places that he loved, a fitting irony, I suppose, but just as rough each time.

I am outraged at what I see as the cause of his death. For nearly three years, the Bush administration has pursued a policy that makes our troops sitting ducks. While Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that our policy is to "clear, hold and build" Iraqi towns, there aren't enough troops to do that.

In our last conversation, Augie complained that the cost in lives to clear insurgents was "less and less worth it," because Marines have to keep coming back to clear the same places. Marine commanders in the field say the same thing. Without sufficient troops, they can't hold the towns. Augie was killed on his fifth mission to clear Haditha.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0103-20.htm

Common dreams? Are we supposed to take this extremist tripe seriously? The fact remains that if it wasn't for the war tens of thousands of Iraqis would have been murdered who were saved by the war and those of you who didn't support it would have blood on your hands.

if it wasn't for the war tens of thousands of Iraqis would have been murdered who were saved by the war and those of you who didn't support it would have blood on your hands.
Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq
Min Max
27736 31263

They didn't send in enough t get the danm job done . Everytime somebody blows up innocent people they need to take that beast family [ adults ] and put them all in prison or worse . So far they have no threat . An eye for an eye . They will never stop until they pay the same price they make others pay . I'm getting sick of the killing of our troops and the innocents in iraq .

by Paul E. Schroeder
Washington Post

Early on Aug. 3, 2005, we heard that 14 Marines had been killed in Haditha, Iraq. Our son, Lance Cpl. Edward "Augie" Schroeder II, was stationed there. At 10:45 a.m. two Marines showed up at our door. After collecting himself for what was clearly painful duty, the lieutenant colonel said, "Your son is a true American hero."

Since then, two reactions to Augie's death have compounded the sadness.

At times like this, people say, "He died a hero." I know this is meant with great sincerity. We appreciate the many condolences we have received and how helpful they have been. But when heard repeatedly, the phrases "he died a hero" or "he died a patriot" or "he died for his country" rub raw.

"People think that if they say that, somehow it makes it okay that he died," our daughter, Amanda, has said. "He was a hero before he died, not just because he went to Iraq. I was proud of him before, and being a patriot doesn't make his death okay. I'm glad he got so much respect at his funeral, but that didn't make it okay either."

The words "hero" and "patriot" focus on the death, not the life. They are a flag-draped mask covering the truth that few want to acknowledge openly: Death in battle is tragic no matter what the reasons for the war. The tragedy is the life that was lost, not the manner of death. Families of dead soldiers on both sides of the battle line know this. Those without family in the war don't appreciate the difference.

This leads to the second reaction. Since August we have witnessed growing opposition to the Iraq war, but it is often whispered, hands covering mouths, as if it is dangerous to speak too loudly. Others discuss the never-ending cycle of death in places such as Haditha in academic and sometimes clinical fashion, as in "the increasing lethality of improvised explosive devices."

Listen to the kinds of things that most Americans don't have to experience: The day Augie's unit returned from Iraq to Camp Lejeune, we received a box with his notebooks, DVDs and clothes from his locker in Iraq. The day his unit returned home to waiting families, we received the second urn of ashes. This lad of promise, of easy charm and readiness to help, whose highest high was saving someone using CPR as a first aid squad volunteer, came home in one coffin and two urns. We buried him in three places that he loved, a fitting irony, I suppose, but just as rough each time.

I am outraged at what I see as the cause of his death. For nearly three years, the Bush administration has pursued a policy that makes our troops sitting ducks. While Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that our policy is to "clear, hold and build" Iraqi towns, there aren't enough troops to do that.

In our last conversation, Augie complained that the cost in lives to clear insurgents was "less and less worth it," because Marines have to keep coming back to clear the same places. Marine commanders in the field say the same thing. Without sufficient troops, they can't hold the towns. Augie was killed on his fifth mission to clear Haditha.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0103-20.htm
This is very sad, sunbum, and it's a very good article...

Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq
Min Max
27736 31263

Yeah, like the 130 killed 'by the occupation' yesterday, right?

Yeah, like the 130 killed 'by the occupation' yesterday, right?


Most of the ' civilians ' left because of ample warning by our military . The ones who stayed were there to fight with exception of few .

Most of the ' civilians ' left because of ample warning by our military . The ones who stayed were there to fight with exception of few .
P&M, I presume you're referrring to Fallujah, but what you say is arrant nonsense. It may be what you'be been told in the USA but it's bollocks.

P&M, I presume you're referrring to Fallujah, but what you say is arrant nonsense. It may be what you'be been told in the USA but it's bollocks.of course. because you're informed and you know the facts. :rolleyes:

P&M, I presume you're referrring to Fallujah, but what you say is arrant nonsense. It may be what you'be been told in the USA but it's bollocks.

Della says its true, therefore it is. :rolleyes:

. An eye for an eye .

Aren't you supposed to be pro-Christian? :confused:

P&M, I presume you're referrring to Fallujah, but what you say is arrant nonsense. It may be what you'be been told in the USA but it's bollocks.

I'm sorry, I'd like to see the source which says most of the civilians of Fallujah stayed.

Della says its true, therefore it is. :rolleyes:
Damn straight! :)

It was reported everywhere, that there were no terrorists in Fallujah to begin with! Everyone there was a civilian, and although maybe 30% of them were able to leave before your people turned it into Dresden, most could not. Then, you pour on the White phosporus!


link

In our last conversation, Augie complained that the cost in lives to clear insurgents was "less and less worth it," because Marines have to keep coming back to clear the same places. Marine commanders in the field say the same thing. Without sufficient troops, they can't hold the towns. Augie was killed on his fifth mission to clear Haditha.

That is apparently the only way to fight terrorists. Terrorists do not wear uniforms or hold a fixed location. If terrorists keep coming back, what choice do you have other than keep coming back and clear the same place?

As to the troop level, Israel have sufficient troops, yet they still have to deal with terrorist attacks.

Damn straight! :)

It was reported everywhere, that there were no terrorists in Fallujah to begin with! Everyone there was a civilian, and although maybe 30% of them were able to leave before your people turned it into Dresden, most could not. Then, you pour on the White phosporus!

Right..and I'll just take your word like you have any clue as to what you're talking about.

Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq
Min Max
27736 31263

Ah, 50,000 were being killed by the sactions each year, and 20,000 by the regime. This was YOUR alternative. Bush saved hundreds of thousands of lives by invading. You and people like you wanted to maximize the suffering of Iraqis. If this is your peace I'd hate to see what its like when you people make war.

Damn straight! :)

It was reported everywhere, that there were no terrorists in Fallujah to begin with! Everyone there was a civilian, and although maybe 30% of them were able to leave before your people turned it into Dresden, most could not. Then, you pour on the White phosporus!


linklol. yeah, i'll be sure to let my buddy know that there were no bad guys in fallujah and that the shrapnel in his arm came from innocent civilians. or maybe its just a figment of his imagination.

P&M, I presume you're referrring to Fallujah, but what you say is arrant nonsense. It may be what you'be been told in the USA but it's bollocks.

And your direct line to Osama said so ? Your just a kid .

Its sad to see what happens to people when they've been so thoroughly defeated in elections that they feel the need to tear their own nation apart in order to gain any satisfaction.

Della says its true, therefore it is. :rolleyes:

And everybody knows it. It were reported everywhere...

And what is the best result we can hope for now in Iraq? An Islamic State governed by a Religious sect closely allied to Iran. Damn was that worth it I am sure Iran appreciates our efforts. Now if only we werent led by strategic idiots we might not get in these situations.

I have to laugh everytime I see a fellow American talking about how we are saving Iraqi lives. As if Americans care about Iraqi lives. Our military swears an oath to defend against enemies of the US Constitution, not free oppressed third world countries.
If we were so altruistic that we felt a need to fix the suffering of poor oppressed people, you would think we might start with Central America.

Now if only we werent led by strategic idiots we might not get in these situations.
Democracy to ME is a good strategy.

I have to laugh everytime I see a fellow American talking about how we are saving Iraqi lives. As if Americans care about Iraqi lives. Our military swears an oath to defend against enemies of the US Constitution, not free oppressed third world countries.
Aren't we fighting terrorists in Iraq?

Aren't we fighting terrorists in Iraq?

I don't know if we are or not. Our President keeps saying that, but everytime I watch the news I see the same two or three video clips from the Middle East.
From what I read, it sounds more like our troops just drive circles around Iraq until something explodes. Then, we find troops that haven't been injured and send them to do the same thing.
I also don't think democracy is some great cure for everything that ails the Middle East. If they cared about democracy, they've had plenty of time to implement it already.
I suspect that Islam and democracy might be mutually exclusive, though I admit this isn't something I can really "know".

Originally posted by Ironwest
Aren't we fighting terrorists in Iraq?

Some of them are, and that sort of justifies continued occupation, but not the overall strategy as part of which we started the war since the terrorists weren't there but Followed us in.

Originally posted by GROFF200
I suspect that Islam and democracy might be mutually exclusive

Turkey.

Right..and I'll just take your word like you have any clue as to what you're talking about.
There was a link - did you not follow it?
Your just a kid .
Thank you! But I am really not - I am old enough to be your daughter!

From what I read, it sounds more like our troops just drive circles around Iraq until something explodes. Then, we find troops that haven't been injured and send them to do the same thing.
Their purpose is not to get killed.

I also don't think democracy is some great cure for everything that ails the Middle East. If they cared about democracy, they've had plenty of time to implement it already.
Remember Berlin Wall? It was build to stop people to leave East Germany in 1961. People already wanted democracy at 1961, but the wall managed to stay for almost 30 years.

Their purpose is not to get killed.


Remember Berlin Wall? It was build to stop people to leave East Germany in 1961. People already wanted democracy at 1961, but the wall managed to stay for almost 30 years.


Are you going to pay the 2 trillion dollars this BS war will cost us?

Are you going to bring all the dead back from the grave?

Are you going to reverse the damage this has done to us and our image around the world?

Did any of you see the news today about how the first palace they turned back over to the Iraqi gov't has been looted by the forces that were supposed to guard it?
I do sincerely think that sending Americans to die in that country is a complete waste of time and resources.

Did any of you see the news today about how the first palace they turned back over to the Iraqi gov't has been looted by the forces that were supposed to guard it?
I do sincerely think that sending Americans to die in that country is a complete waste of time and resources.

There was also a story last week about how routine the torture and beating of anyone arrested is in Iraq. Saddam may be gone but the methods live on, here, and in many places in Middle East. You can drag them to "democracy" but you can't make them drink.

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." George W. Bush, 8-5-2004.

And everybody knows it. It were reported everywhere...
Coral, did you follow the link I gave? (One of many I could have given, but one right-winger's disbelief notwithstanding, we are on slow dial-up, and I didnae have the capacity...
I do sincerely think that sending Americans to die in that country is a complete waste of time and resources.
Absolutely right...