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Eleusian
12-30-2005, 06:11 PM
I wonder how the U.S. government will react when the Iraqi Army trained by American officers and equipped with U.S. weapons attacks American troops.

Kurds prepare for civil war in Iraq
BY TOM LASSETER
KNIGHT RIDDER NEWSPAPERS

KIRKUK, Iraq - Kurdish leaders have inserted more than 10,000 of their militia members into Iraqi army divisions in northern Iraq to lay the groundwork to swarm south, seize the oil-rich city of Kirkuk and possibly half of Mosul, Iraq's third-largest city, and secure the borders of an independent Kurdistan.

Five days of interviews with Kurdish leaders and troops in the region suggest that U.S. plans to bring unity to Iraq before withdrawing American troops by training and equipping a national army aren't gaining traction. Instead, some troops that are formally under U.S. and Iraqi national command are preparing to protect territory and ethnic and religious interests in the event of Iraq's fragmentation, which many of them think is inevitable.

The soldiers said that while they wore Iraqi army uniforms they still considered themselves members of the Peshmerga -- the Kurdish militia -- and were awaiting orders from Kurdish leaders to break ranks. Many said they wouldn't hesitate to kill their Iraqi army comrades, especially Arabs, if a fight for an independent Kurdistan erupted.

"It doesn't matter if we have to fight the Arabs in our own battalion," said Gabriel Mohammed, a Kurdish soldier in the Iraqi army who was escorting a Knight Ridder reporter through Kirkuk. "Kirkuk will be ours."

The Kurds have readied their troops not only because they've long yearned to establish an independent state but also because their leaders expect Iraq to disintegrate, senior leaders in the Peshmerga -- literally, "those who face death" -- told Knight Ridder. The Kurds are mostly secular Sunni Muslims, and are ethnically distinct from Arabs.

Their strategy mirrors that of Shiite Muslim parties in southern Iraq, which have stocked Iraqi army and police units with members of their own militias and have maintained a separate militia presence throughout Iraq's central and southern provinces. The militias are illegal under Iraqi law but operate openly in many areas. Peshmerga leaders said in interviews that they expected the Shiites to create a semi-autonomous and then independent state in the south as they would do in the north.

The Bush administration -- and Iraq's neighbors -- oppose the nation's fragmentation, fearing that it could lead to regional collapse. To keep Iraq together, U.S. plans to withdraw significant numbers of American troops in 2006 will depend on turning U.S.-trained Kurdish and Shiite militiamen into a national army.

The interviews with Kurdish troops, however, suggested that as the American military transfers more bases and areas of control to Iraqi units, it may be handing the nation to militias that are bent more on advancing ethnic and religious interests than on defeating the insurgency and preserving national unity.

A U.S. military officer in Baghdad with knowledge of Iraqi army operations said he was frustrated to hear of the Iraqi soldiers' comments but that he'd seen no reports suggesting that they'd acted improperly in the field.

"There's talk and there's acts, and their actions are that they follow the orders of the Iraqi chain of command and they secure their sectors well," said the officer, who refused to be identified because he's not authorized to speak on the subject

American military officials have said they're trying to get a broader mix of sects in the Iraqi units.

However, Col. Talib Naji, a Kurd serving in the Iraqi army on the edge of Kirkuk, said he'd resist any attempts to dilute the Kurdish presence in his brigade.

"The Ministry of Defense recently sent me 150 Arab soldiers from the south," Naji said. "After two weeks of service, we sent them away. We did not accept them. We will not let them carry through with their plans to bring more Arab soldiers here."

One key to the Kurds' plan for independence is securing control of Kirkuk, the seat of a province that holds some of Iraq's largest oil fields. Should the Kurds push for independence, Kirkuk and its oil would be a key economic engine.

The city's Kurdish population was driven out by former Sunni Arab dictator Saddam Hussein, whose "Arabization" program paid thousands of Arab families to move there and replace recently deported or murdered Kurds.

"Kirkuk is Kurdistan; it does not belong to the Arabs," Hamid Afandi, the minister of Peshmerga for the Kurdistan Democratic Party, one of the two major Kurdish groups, said in an interview at his office in the Kurdish city of Irbil. "If we can resolve this by talking, fine, but if not, then we will resolve it by fighting."

http://www.stg.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/13425563.htm

jimmyjude
12-30-2005, 06:48 PM
Civil war with who?

Each other?

They are going to suddenly start lobbing bombs at each other?

Or are the extreme minority Sunnis and Shias (in Kurd areas) going to go up there and start a war?

lol

Sulla the Dictator
12-30-2005, 06:59 PM
There seems to be a lot of hand wringing about Kurdish and Shia influence in the new army.

Its amusing to see outrage some of you people have when the majority of the nation assumes control of the majority of its institutions.

Java_man
12-30-2005, 07:17 PM
You guys seriously believe the Sunnis, Kurds and Shiites are going to all hold hands and sing kum-ba-ya if / when the Americans pull out ?

Kurdish Oil Deal Shocks Iraq's Political Leaders
A Norwegian company begins drilling in the north without approval from Baghdad.

By Borzou Daragahi, Times Staff Writer

BAGHDAD — A controversial oil exploration deal between Iraq's autonomy-minded Kurds and a Norwegian company got underway this week without the approval of the central government here, raising a potentially explosive issue at a time of heightened ethnic and sectarian tensions.

The Kurdistan Democratic Party, which controls a portion of the semiautonomous Kurdish enclave in northern Iraq, last year quietly signed a deal with Norway's DNO to drill for oil near the border city of Zakho. Iraqi and company officials describe the agreement as the first involving new exploration in Iraq since the U.S.-led invasion in 2003.

"This is unprecedented," said Alaa Makki, a leader of the Iraqi Islamic Party, a Sunni Arab group. "It's like they are an independent country. This is Iraqi oil and should be shared with all the Iraqi partners."



http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-oildeal1dec01,0,4057840.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Iraqis denounce Iraqi election as a sham

By SINAN SALAHEDDIN
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER

Demonstrators gather to listen to speeches of political leaders in Baghdad, Iraq, Friday Dec. 23, 2005, as several hundred thousand people rallied after noon prayers, with many carrying banners denouncing last week's elections. Large demonstrations broke out across the country Friday to protest what many say were unfair parliamentary elections.

As many as 20,000 people demonstrated after noon prayers in southern Baghdad Friday in a protest organized by Sunni Arab groups and attended by representatives of secular Shia parties.

Many Iraqis outside the religious Shiite coalition allege that the elections were unfair to smaller Sunni Arab and secular Shiite groups.

Sulla the Dictator
12-30-2005, 07:38 PM
You guys seriously believe the Sunnis, Kurds and Shiites are going to all hold hands and sing kum-ba-ya if / when the Americans pull out ?


Explain to me why the Kurds shouldn't have more autonomy.



http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-oildeal1dec01,0,4057840.story?coll=la-home-headlines

LOL Sunni Arabs are screaming about a worldwide conspiracy aimed specifically at them?

Now THATS different!

Eleusian
12-30-2005, 10:34 PM
There seems to be a lot of hand wringing about Kurdish and Shia influence in the new army.

I think the fact that these people use their influence to advance their own sectarian and ethnic agendas and are quite willing to resort to violence is reason enough for 'hadn wringing'.

Its amusing to see outrage some of you people have when the majority of the nation assumes control of the majority of its institutions.


It's amusing to see a neo-con who doesn't seem to be worried about the impending Balkanization of Iraq. Neo-cons seem to be incapable of learning from history.

Eleusian
12-30-2005, 10:35 PM
Explain to me why the Kurds shouldn't have more autonomy.

Can you ever argue without resorting to pathetic strawmen, Sulla? Nowhere in his posts did Java_man claim or even imply that Kurds should not have more autonomy; more relevantly, autonomy is quite different from overt ethnic favoritism.

orangikan
12-30-2005, 11:41 PM
I wonder which country BA will have best relationships with? Kurdistan, Shiastan, or Sunnistan? Probably Kurdistan as they are the only faction that semi loves/respects us for setting them free. Shia will lean towards US hater Iran, while Sunnis will probably throw in lot with Saudis. Oh yes, I forgot the little canton of Zarqawistan, which will be dumped if Sunnis abandon them, but will be useful to help Sunnis fight Shiastan.

Ah nation building, don't you love it!:D

Java_man
12-31-2005, 12:05 AM
Explain to me why the Kurds shouldn't have more autonomy.

Can you ever argue without resorting to pathetic strawmen, Sulla? Nowhere in his posts did Java_man claim or even imply that Kurds should not have more autonomy; more relevantly, autonomy is quite different from overt ethnic favoritism.

so THIS is why my strawman-alert has been pegged-out lately ;)

The only way these 3 groups are not going to continuously keep fighting is by carving up Iraq into 3 countries ... oh wait ... then they will battle for the border space and resources :|

When we 'broke' Iraq ... we bought it ... the only thing that will keep it from descending even lower into a full-blown civil war is our military presence there.

This lose-lose situation was brought to us by the neo-cons at the BA :not:

Knightowl
12-31-2005, 02:41 AM
Oh, for the days of the Monroe Doctrine! What ever happened to walking softly and carrying a big stick? We are setting ourselves up for a real big fall by our constant meddling in other peoples conflicts. We need to stick to our own damn hemisphere and mind our own damn business!

themistocles
12-31-2005, 03:06 AM
It's amusing to see a neo-con who doesn't seem to be worried about the impending Balkanization of Iraq. Neo-cons seem to be incapable of learning from history.

"Impending" Balkanization?

That's the most hilarious thing I've ever read on this bulletin board, and the "incapabale of learning from history" has to be the kicker. How well did the Sunnis get along with the Kurds and Shiites before the war? Do you remember how they (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/12/27/iraq/main1166917.shtml) treated each other? (http://www.hrw.org/editorials/2003/iraqmassgraves.htm) Because I, a neo-con, am more than capable of reminding you should you require such a history lesson. (http://hrw.org/reports/1993/iraqanfal/)

fat mike
12-31-2005, 09:34 AM
The Kurds are distributed over a wider area and probably have no intention of giving up plans for sovereignty anyway...

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