So we run massive deficits, piss away billions on a pointless war in the desert, and now are apparently losing whatever technological edge we once had. Nothing new about that. But what really surprised me is that the Russians are still apparently pretty darn good in this area, putting together fighter planes. That, and that India has put together a truly competent air force by all accounts, able to service and direct, not just fly, the planes.

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Indian Air Force, in war games, gives US a run

Foreign fighter jets performed well against F-16s in recent exercises.

By Scott Baldauf | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

NEW DELHI – Mingling over a few rounds of golf, dogfighting a bit over the jungles of West Bengal - this month's Cope India 2005 war games were billed as a standard two-week exercise between Indian and American top guns.
But in website chat rooms devoted to the arcania of fighter aircraft, there was a buzz. Arre, wa! Oh, wow! Had the Indian Air Force beat the Americans?

Not exactly, according to observers and participants. The exercises had mixed teams of Indian and American pilots on both sides, which means that both the Americans and the Indians won, and lost. Yet, observers say that in a surprising number of encounters - particularly between the American F-16s and the Indian Sukhoi-30 MKIs - the Indian pilots came out the winners.

Continued (http://search.csmonitor.com/search_content/1128/p01s04-wosc.html)

I wonder how they would do against the newest fighter plane..isn't it the F22?

The US spends too much money on R&D and not enough on training the pilot.

An idiot at the controls of the most advanced fighter is still an idiot.

The US military in general is too willing to spend $$$$ on gadgets and junk and not willing to spend $$$ and TIME on training the troopies. It leads to a false sense of security. It's going to bite us in the ass some day. Perhaps someday soon.

Actually, I would argue that the problem with the US is that enough is NOT spent on research and development anymore.
Countries such as India and China are putting huge amounts of capital into training engineers and developing new technologies. The US is falling behind, and that will bite us right in the a@@ before you know it.
Now, training the troops properly is quite important as well. But, an opponent with superior technology may be able to win with less well trained troops also.

Actually, I would argue that the problem with the US is that enough is NOT spent on research and development anymore

Groff,

I think the difference of opinion stems from a simple truth. The US WASTES most of the money it spends on R&D. The corporations have been milking their gov't contracts for decades ... and siphoning off billions of dollars (perhaps TRILLIONS of $$$$) in the process.

If the taxpayers really got what that money could buy (rather than simply padding the accounts of the corporate execs who are getting filthy rich off the system), then the US military would truly be unstoppable. And we'd probably have a couple of things that currently exist only in science fiction.

Instead we have a DoD that has spent $200 billion (that's 'billion' with a 'b') on the F-35 ... simply for Research and Development. They haven't actually produced a plane yet. They've simply been 'researching' it.

Do you have any idea what $200 billion could do for our education system in this country ? So we could churn out top-notch engineers and programmers ?

And where did that money actually end up ? Certainly not as a national resource ...

I think we agree on most points. Our point of disagreement is probably more on semantics than anything.
I agree that a lot of money in R&D is wasted by going into the pockets of a very few people.
But, at the same time, if we took all the R&D money and put it into education, we would produce a lot of engineers and scientists who couldn't find jobs because R&D is where jobs for those professions are created.
If we took our current system and removed the corruption from it, it would probably work quite alright. It did work for a long time, until the entire process started to operate based on greed instead of results.

the F-16 is 30 yrs old, while the Sukhoi-30 MKI is less than 10 yrs old. however, it is Russian made junk and shouldn't be able to compete with the F-16...

the F-22 Raptor is not an air combat fighter, it's more of a ground attack fighter.

the F-16 is 30 yrs old, while the Sukhoi-30 MKI is less than 10 yrs old. however, it is Russian made junk and shouldn't be able to compete with the F-16...

the F-22 Raptor is not an air combat fighter, it's more of a ground attack fighter.
I think that highlights what people are saying though. Our 30 yearold fighter is STILL a good one...but it isn't superior anymore. 30 years ago, we were ahead of the curve in training and technology, but we see that gap lessening and lessening.

The fact that a 30 yearold fighter is our 'main' fighter jet (correct me if im wrong?) is a bit apalling...

I think that highlights what people are saying though. Our 30 yearold fighter is STILL a good one...but it isn't superior anymore. 30 years ago, we were ahead of the curve in training and technology, but we see that gap lessening and lessening.

The fact that a 30 yearold fighter is our 'main' fighter jet (correct me if im wrong?) is a bit apalling...

I am in total agreement.
I wonder how much of it is cutural influence though?
Back in the 1960s and 1970s, kids grew up with heroes like John Glenn and Neil Armstrong, and Von Braun (sp?). To be like their heroes they had to become test pilots, or engineers, etc.
Now, all the kids want to grow up and become actors or musicians and speak in dialects nobody but them can understand.
Knowledge is a devalued commodity in the USA it seems.

The fact that a 30 yearold fighter is our 'main' fighter jet (correct me if im wrong?) is a bit apalling...

our main "fighter" is the F-22, which replaces the F-15 that got it's butt kicked by the Indians last year (but in all fairness..the "game" itself played was 30 year oldish "Top Gun" stuff :p ). The F-15 is older than the F-16:D

Red, I think your thinking about the F-35 which will be a multirole platform similiar to what the F-16's primary missions involve.

The Russians are building a special Sukhoi to deal with the F-22.

Good show by the Indians:nice:

but hardly realistic.

the F-16 is 30 yrs old, while the Sukhoi-30 MKI is less than 10 yrs old. however, it is Russian made junk and shouldn't be able to compete with the F-16...
Hmmm, I'd be wary of calling Russian military hardware junk...they've a long history of producing extremely robust (and, admittedly, rather ugly-looking) systems.

the F-22 Raptor is not an air combat fighter, it's more of a ground attack fighter.
Huh? The F/A-22 is probably the best air-superiority fighter on the planet right now, in terms of maneuvrability, stealth, and power. Depending on the success of the meteor and improvements to its radar, the Typhoon may be able to beat it beyond visual range, but closer than that, it pretty much kills...everything. In a (simulated) exercise, kill rates were on the order of 1 F/A-22 for >10 Su-35s.

Are you thinking of the F35 (JSF)? that's a ground-attack jet with limited air to air capability, sort of the inverse of the F-22.



edit: and, as Redline said, the exercise deliberately nixed a lot of the U.S. advantage by restricting the engagements to within visual range.

Hmmm, I'd be wary of calling Russian military hardware junk...they've a long history of producing extremely robust (and, admittedly, rather ugly-looking) systems.


Agreed. Soviet and Russian military gear was usually unappealing and sometimes down-right uncomfortable. But it did work. And it worked well.

I'd rather stake my life on ugly, working equipment over a pretty piece of junk any day.

You will not be at war with the EU or with India more than likely so you have little risk from those, China on the other hand...
No nation can remain on top forever; the World is becoming multipolar again, the US will just have to learn to live with that fact.

the article did point out that China has acquired 200 of the same model of Sukhoi fighter that the Indians are rocking....

If I'm not mistaken, the F-15 is our primary fighter aircraft currently, and I don't think the Raptor is even in full service yet, is it?

I think making guesses about Russian and foreign hardware is a very dangerous game to play. For instance, we vastly underestimated the range and ceiling on the SA-2 SAM during the Vietnam War to the consternation of a few Phantom pilots who visited the infamous Hanoi Hilton. Then there was the Gulf War and the huge overestimation of how well the T-72 tanks would perform. No one had any idea of how easily our sabots would pierce through the armor, even from distances that the Army never trained at, or thought their guns could put rounds on target from. I mean, heck, in that situation we didn't even realize the full capabilities of our OWN equipment on the battlefield.

To assume that Russian hardware is shwack cuz its Russian is exactly the kind of hubris and arrogance that leads to dead soldiers.

On the other hand..... I have one word (well, its not really a word, but) for you, AWACS. In a real shooting war, the AWACS gives US air superiority fighters such a huge unreal advantage that I doubt the quality of fighters will matter much for the next couple of decades if the opposition doesn't figure out a way to neutralize our advantage there. If this little soiree shows us anything, its that maybe our close-in dogfighting abilities have, once again, deteriorated due to our reliance upon radar-guided missiles. I mean, the entire reason for starting up Top Gun and Red Flag was a bunch of Mig pilots kicking our asses in Vietnam once they got in close. Sounds like its happening again.