Reading NY Times story today describing the sub Saharan custom of fathers trading their "prepubecent" 11 year old daughters for food/payment/loans (e.g. $16.00) as "a common occurance"

However, there are pubertal findings that African American females may reach "puberty" at 6-8 years of age (http://www.aafp.org/afp/20030501/tips/8.html).

Women's rights advocates want to abolish the tradition. Can we really judge fathers that marry off their daughters if they have reached puberty?

I'm amazed that African women are reaching puberty so early. I always thought it was due to Western diet.

Maybe it was because Africa was such a hard place to live in puberty happened earlier to give a greater chance of having lots of children even with a reduced lifespan or survival rate.
I know some medical disorders can make some aspects of puberty happen even in children of 2 years old, but if 6 years of age is common then it isn't a disorder, its some evolutionary adaptation.

Maybe it was because Africa was such a hard place to live in puberty happened earlier to give a greater chance of having lots of children even with a reduced lifespan or survival rate.
I know some medical disorders can make some aspects of puberty happen even in children of 2 years old, but if 6 years of age is common then it isn't a disorder, its some evolutionary adaptation.

Biologically though, a hard life delays puberty, because the mother has to have enough food to make enough fat that she can support the formation of a baby, and be able to care for the baby later on in ife.(breast feeding)

Basically, if the life cant support the mother, she wont become ready to have children. Another example of this is that women with low body fat dont ovulate anymore.. gymnasts, athletes, and anorexics are examples of this.

In the long run it's better for the mother to be older and ready to have a kid. (her body is more fully grown and the birth will be safer)

And i read this article, these people are marrying off their daughters before they have puberty. It's a pretty easy thing to figure out, "have you had your period? yes or no."

You are misreading what samson said btw, he said that black girls in the U.S. are having puberty at 6-8 years old, this has NOTHING to do with sub-saharan africa. (and the early onset of puberty is really due to diet, and nutrition in the united states, fat causes more bodily estrogen, estrogen causes the bones to grow quickly, and the epiphyseal plates to fuse more quickly -than in boys for example- and a high fat body percentage tells the body it's ready, in a stable enough environment to have kids, therefore the onset of puberty.)

However, there are pubertal findings that African American females may reach "puberty" at 6-8 years of age (http://www.aafp.org/afp/20030501/tips/8.html).

Can we really judge fathers that marry off their daughters if they have reached puberty?

I'm amazed that African women are reaching puberty so early. I always thought it was due to Western diet.

Rolf, the first post is talking about American black girls, not sub-saharan african girls, the girls in teh article really ARE pre-pubescent, and puberty really IS linked to good nutrition ( or too good nutrition in america's case.)

Height is linked to good nutrition as well.

NOT good logic to say that b/c american black girls have periods so early (btw, the only two girls iknow who had their menarche at 8 and 9 were white and not black *shrug*) therefore girls in sub-saharan african black girls do too.

From the article:

"They did not find any statistically significant differences in the incidence of true precocious puberty between black and white girls."

The OTHER thing about this article is that these 11 year olds are being married to men who are like 68 and70, when these guys die and these girls are teenagers with 2 or 3 kids, they wont be left with any means to take care of themselves.

They are taken out of school to get married, and it's risky for children to have children, it breaks their bodies, AND they are the 2nd or 3rd wife, they have no status in their household, and wont have any security when their old husbands die. (They feel they cant leave because the kids belong to the father.)

There is a trend throughout the world for girls to reach puberty at earlier and earlier ages due to the prevalence of growth hormones and other nastiness in the food and water supplies. One of my nieces got her period at the age of 9.

This early onset menarche does not mean that the rest of a girl's body or her emotions are developed enough to be a successful mother. An 8 or 9 year old becoming pregnant is at high risk of death or damage.

There is a trend throughout the world for girls to reach puberty at earlier and earlier ages due to the prevalence of growth hormones and other nastiness in the food and water supplies. One of my nieces got her period at the age of 9.

This early onset menarche does not mean that the rest of a girl's body or her emotions are developed enough to be a successful mother. An 8 or 9 year old becoming pregnant is at high risk of death or damage.

In NY times article, these girls really are pre-pubescent, ... and when your family is making $16/month you dont have growth hormones in your food.

The article in the Times wasnt debating whether these girls had their menarche or not it was stating that they are pre-pubescent and should not be getting married, and against their will at that!
(Samson was debating whether these girls were pre-pubescent and therefore ready for marriage.)

In NY times article, these girls really are pre-pubescent, ... and when your family is making $16/month you dont have growth hormones in your food.

The article in the Times wasnt debating whether these girls had their menarche or not it was stating that they are pre-pubescent and should not be getting married, and against their will at that!
(Samson was debating whether these girls were pre-pubescent and therefore ready for marriage.)


My comment was in response to Samson's. To me, it doesn't matter whether or not the children have achieved puberty - young girls being sold is a form of slavery and morally reprehensible.

On the hormone front - they are pervasive in the global food and water supply. All it takes is for one farmer/rancher to use them and for the waste to get into a river or ground water source.

To me, it doesn't matter whether or not the children have achieved puberty - young girls being sold is a form of slavery and morally reprehensible.

Well, it seems when modern "morality" meets starvation, morality looses. Additionally, when knowledge about the dangers of becomming sexually active before "true" puberty has prepared a female for childbirth meets the ignorance of Sub-Saharan Africa and its longstanding cultural norms, ignorance continues to prevail.

Biologically though, a hard life delays puberty, because the mother has to have enough food to make enough fat that she can support the formation of a baby, and be able to care for the baby later on in ife.(breast feeding)

True, a century ago puberty happened at 16, now you have some 13 year olds looking like they could to into a bar and order a drink. I was wondering about specific adaptations though, but I am possibly wrong.


Basically, if the life cant support the mother, she wont become ready to have children. Another example of this is that women with low body fat dont ovulate anymore.. gymnasts, athletes, and anorexics are examples of this.

I suspect it would cause miscarriages also.



You are misreading what samson said btw, he said that black girls in the U.S. are having puberty at 6-8 years old, this has NOTHING to do with sub-saharan africa.

But what I want to know is, are African American girls reaching puberty earlier than other ethnic groups? Good diet of coarse will give a bigger potential for earlier puberty onset, perhaps animal hormones used in meat could be another factor, and these should effect all groups more or less equally, but I want to know if there is still an ethnic difference in puberty onset even when the girls group up in similar environments. But my question still stands. I understand the effects of starvation of various bodily processes but my question was something quite different. I am trying to separate nature from nuture.

Puberty is not the time for marriage; just because a girl has her first period doesn't mean she is a woman. She has to gain space within her to safely gestate a child and she probably wont get that until about 16. Therefore (questions of legal minority aside) 16 is the earliest marriage should be considered or at least the earliest a girl should consider carrying a child .There are also emotional factors here, and a until a girl approaches adulthood she does not have the emotional development and experience to make that decision and understand the consequences (and perhaps some people never gain that maturity at all).

Puberty is not the time for marriage; just because a girl has her first period doesn't mean she is a woman. She has to gain space within her to safely gestate a child and she probably wont get that until about 16. Therefore (questions of legal minority aside) 16 is the earliest marriage should be considered or at least the earliest a girl should consider carrying a child .There are also emotional factors here, and a until a girl approaches adulthood she does not have the emotional development and experience to make that decision and understand the consequences (and perhaps some people never gain that maturity at all).

i read in a book called Sex, Time and Power that young girls tend to have anovulatory periods, meaning they have their periods but they dont actually release eggs (anovulation) until they are older, it's like a precaution just to make sure the girl is truly ready, and that conditions are optimal for her to become a mother.

Nature v. nuture, it's always a little bit of both, but i think when it comes to something that is linked to growth (as opposed to an innate characteristic) it's linked to nuture even more. (height and puberty for example) AND the article that he quoted didnt say that only black girls were having early menarches, but all american girls, both white and black were developing very early.

Well, it seems when modern "morality" meets starvation, morality looses. Additionally, when knowledge about the dangers of becomming sexually active before "true" puberty has prepared a female for childbirth meets the ignorance of Sub-Saharan Africa and its longstanding cultural norms, ignorance continues to prevail.


It does put the Reparations For Slavery issue in a rather stark light.

It does put the Reparations For Slavery issue in a rather stark light.

You are trying to summon forth the Trio of Aryan Demons 86Dude, Jackie, and Thumper.

I can see their pointy hats rising through the white mist as I speak.

I just think it is hypocritcal for African Americans who live far better in the U.S. than their Continental Africa Dwelling Brethren do to demand Reparations, especially when The CADB still practice slavery.

I don't hear the hoofbeats of the Three Horseman yet.

I don't hear the hoofbeats of the Three Horseman yet.

Not for lack of your efforts!!

Anyway, hypocracy is relative. I'm not convinced that the number of wealthy African Americans has reached critical mass for them to assist other African Americans, much less African Africans.