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View Full Version : Frenchness: One size doesn't fit all


boedicca
11-10-2005, 04:59 PM
Excellent analysis of the special circumstances that make France particularly ripe for the current (and most likely future) riots.

Excerpt:


Thelocal context is the constant denigration by the political class of everything that works elsewhere, especially if it is in the United States or Britain. It is the general immodesty, engrained both left and right, everything that works elsewhere, especially if it is in the United States or Britain. It is the general immodesty, engrained both left and right, concerning a supposed French model for civilization for the world that cannot find substantiation at home. And in the case of the current rioting, it is the boomerang effect of a particular kind of French romanticism that, over the years, legitimized intifadas, anti-globalist street fighters, and fire-bomb tossing with the subtext, we're with you, brothers.

So the violence here arises not only from specially French circumstances including massive housing projects in enclaves for the poor, and a dismal colonial history in North and Black Africa. It also comes, pre-rationalized, from the homegrown French who provided the conceits fashioning the rationale, however jumbled, of the rioters.

An Arab kid in Clichy-sous-Bois may not articulate it, but what rage it must create to hear he lives in the greatest, smartest, most fair country in the world, revered as Islam's best-friend-in-the west from Algeria to Oman, and then have to deal with a French reality of racist scorn and rejection.

Not to mention the French state which, clothed as the ideal republic, runs the school, the bus, the Métro, owns the housing project, operates the job center, and fails, in relation to immigrants, on all those levels.

And then the denial despite hints of self-awareness:

Now, Francois Bayrou, leader of the centrist group that with the neo-Gaullists, makes up Jacques Chirac's presidential majority, describes France as a "sick state, a state swollen into impotence" with "a democracy that doesn't work well." This means, he said, that "reality never enters political discussions."

But asked why the riots were happening here, since France's neighbors seemed to be escaping its misery, Bayrou offered a general response that, like the answers of the other politicians he condemned, hid from the specifics of both responsibilities and solution:

"As long as French democracy doesn't change," Bayrou said, "these accidents are going to continue." He left it there.


http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/11/09/news/assess.php


All of which leads me to believe that riots on the current French scale are unlikely in other countries, unless AQ or some other Islamofascist group provides external leadership to plan them and imports agents provacateur to instigate them.

fat mike
11-10-2005, 05:33 PM
An Arab kid in Clichy-sous-Bois may not articulate it, but what rage it must create to hear he lives in the greatest, smartest, most fair country in the world, revered as Islam's best-friend-in-the west from Algeria to Oman, and then have to deal with a French reality of racist scorn and rejection.

Not to mention the French state which, clothed as the ideal republic, runs the school, the bus, the Métro, owns the housing project, operates the job center, and fails, in relation to immigrants, on all those levels.


Political differences aside-you can't say the Americans are any less arrogant. They also have an answer for every difficulty and seem to be able to contrive an argument that the poor are better off than the rich here...

Oberon
11-10-2005, 06:47 PM
Political differences aside-you can't say the Americans are any less arrogant. They also have an answer for every difficulty and seem to be able to contrive an argument that the poor are better off than the rich here...

Americans are far more arrogant, and dumber to boot as a rule. I've been to France more than once, and outside of Paris, the French reputation for snobbery is widely undeserved and false, but repeat that old canard for decades and many without a clue will of course believe it. You'll find more snobbery and rudeness in any Southern city than in France.

boedicca
11-10-2005, 06:51 PM
Political differences aside-you can't say the Americans are any less arrogant.

Actually, I can say that. There are sub-species of Americans (Bostonian & Marin County Dems come easily to mind), that are truly arrogant - but on average, I do believe that Americans are more "live and let live" than the French. In the U.S., minorities do not need permission from the local police department to move into a neighborhood - which they do need in Paris.

86Dude
11-10-2005, 07:09 PM
Americans are far more arrogant, and dumber to boot as a rule. I've been to France more than once, and outside of Paris, the French reputation for snobbery is widely undeserved and false, but repeat that old canard for decades and many without a clue will of course believe it. You'll find more snobbery and rudeness in any Southern city than in France.

Is "dumber" a word?

fat mike
11-10-2005, 07:10 PM
Actually, I can say that. There are sub-species of Americans (Bostonian & Marin County Dems come easily to mind), that are truly arrogant - but on average, I do believe that Americans are more "live and let live" than the French. In the U.S., minorities do not need permission from the local police department to move into a neighborhood - which they do need in Paris.

I don't know,Bo,you might be right-I wait on my customers and I see a lot of kind positive people but there's so much tension and anger between the races and political parties...frankly here at this board i see a lot of hate-nice people but the hate is there-if I were smarter I might know it's just this group or that or just a misunderstanding but I had so much time alone I miss the obvious sometimes..

Oberon
11-10-2005, 07:25 PM
Is "dumber" a word?

If '86Dude' can be a handle for a 36 year old adult, then, yes, dumber is a word.

boedicca
11-10-2005, 07:56 PM
I don't know,Bo,you might be right-I wait on my customers and I see a lot of kind positive people but there's so much tension and anger between the races and political parties...frankly here at this board i see a lot of hate-nice people but the hate is there-if I were smarter I might know it's just this group or that or just a misunderstanding but I had so much time alone I miss the obvious sometimes..


Not liking people because they are rude idiots is far different than bigotry based upon DNA.

Just sayin'.

86Dude
11-10-2005, 08:24 PM
If '86Dude' can be a handle for a 36 year old adult, then, yes, dumber is a word.

Aw come on be a sport, no need to get angry.

The French family I lived with wasn't the least bit arrogant. I don't recall any arrogance or any anti-americanism. Times have changed, I'm sure it's a lot more hostile now. That said your assertion that southern cities are unfriendly leaves me scratching my head.

fat mike
11-10-2005, 08:28 PM
We're right next to Kraw's state-Frenchies and southerners! They're almost all nice people,they have a little prissy attitude but it's kind of a put on-the Germans have a similar one so we get along...

Oberon
11-10-2005, 08:39 PM
Aw come on be a sport, no need to get angry.

I hardly ever get angry.

That said your assertion that southern cities are unfriendly leaves me scratching my head.

The South has changed a lot, and no small part of it was the mass migration of midwestern Yankees down here. Much of what passes for 'friendlyness' down here has more to do with nosiness than 'friendly', and is pretty shallow. You find a few natives here and there, but not many around these days.

86Dude
11-10-2005, 09:33 PM
I hardly ever get angry.



The South has changed a lot, and no small part of it was the mass migration of midwestern Yankees down here. Much of what passes for 'friendlyness' down here has more to do with nosiness than 'friendly', and is pretty shallow. You find a few natives here and there, but not many around these days.

Yankees that move to the south suck. They're corporate leeches who devour cheap land and housing, but spend too much time complaining about the heat and how backward everything is.

fat mike
11-12-2005, 09:56 PM
Yankees that move to the south suck. They're corporate leeches who devour cheap land and housing, but spend too much time complaining about the heat and how backward everything is.

Natives complain about that stuff too. What about the backwardness of Yankee
Poseurs who try to fit in by being racist and vulgar?

Samson
11-13-2005, 12:44 PM
Natives complain about that stuff too. What about the backwardness of Yankee
Poseurs who try to fit in by being racist and vulgar?

Are we talking about Yanks that move to France?

fat mike
11-13-2005, 09:12 PM
Are we talking about Yanks that move to France?

Put on your bifocals old fellow-this is about the south...

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