Draft Dodging: Is it right or wrong?

I believe "Drafting" is wrong. Thus I would say that Draft Dodging is acceptable.

Drafting is forcing people to fight against their will.
Hence a forceful removal of freedom.
Those whom do not wish to fight are accepting the consequences of not fighting.

I will only fight my own wars.

Aesir's comments work for me.

I"ll openly support the position it is wrong.

And not just because I am right. :|

snicker

War isn't always unavoidable. If it's a matter of self-preservation, leaving the responsibility to others is wrong.

Your leaders aren't always right. If they take the country to a war of choice, only those who choose to sacrifice ought to be called to do so.

So I picked "C."

By the way, Aesir, that is the best signature ever.

Well, if you're a citizen of a nation, a political body, and you enjoy the said benefits of that society, don't you owe them? I mean, social contract theory, like the exact same thing with paying taxes, except they want your body, not your money.

I think draft dodging is wrong. If you feel so strongly against your government's positions on war, then you shouldn't live in that society and benefit from the same freedoms that are protected by others willing to accept the contract.

Well, if you're a citizen of a nation, a political body, and you enjoy the said benefits of that society, don't you owe them? I mean, social contract theory, like the exact same thing with paying taxes, except they want your body, not your money.

I think draft dodging is wrong. If you feel so strongly against your government's positions on war, then you shouldn't live in that society and benefit from the same freedoms that are protected by others willing to accept the contract.

Mmmm...that sounds like a good solution for board game pieces or something, but human life just...that ain't workable. The Americans do wrong, the Swedes do wrong, the Turks do wrong. You can't just pick up and leave when your country does wrong. Dodging is an individual choice, and I wouldn't say it's always (or even usually, really) "wrong." World leaders tend to not be the nicest guys.

Ehh, blame it on my Asian upbringing. If you have a duty, and I think as citizens we all do, you don't skip out on it. Not that I've been the role-model for upholding honor and duty, but this is a philosophical question.

Me personally? If I got drafted to go and fight in Iraq, I'd be on a plane so fast for Korea it'd make your head spin. =)

By the way, Aesir, that is the best signature ever.

Yeah, it was either that or "pave the gays", but I figured I wouldn't offend any whales.

:|

:D

Kidding by the way.

I think draft dodging is wrong. If you feel so strongly against your government's positions on war, then you shouldn't live in that society and benefit from the same freedoms that are protected by others willing to accept the contract.

QUESTION: Have not lawyers who are constitutional experts said in the past decade or so that a "draft" would now be deemed unconstitutional? I thought I read that. Did I dream that? Does that ring a bell with anyone?

Yes. I am too lazy to look for a link. :)

War isn't always unavoidable. If it's a matter of self-preservation, leaving the responsibility to others is wrong.

Define self preservation. Are there degrees of it?

This argument could be (is) made for a lot of wars.

Well, if you're a citizen of a nation, a political body, and you enjoy the said benefits of that society, don't you owe them? I mean, social contract theory, like the exact same thing with paying taxes, except they want your body, not your money.

I think draft dodging is wrong. If you feel so strongly against your government's positions on war, then you shouldn't live in that society and benefit from the same freedoms that are protected by others willing to accept the contract.
i have a whole new respect for you after this comment.
Me personally? If I got drafted to go and fight in Iraq, I'd be on a plane so fast for Korea it'd make your head spin. =)
and this comment just killed it. :p

Draft dodging is obviously illegal. If I were opposed enough to my country's war (Vietnam) I would have to decide whether a moral choice overrides a criminal act. If I doged I would expect the govt. to do it's legal thing. A US govt. that needed an Army has the legal clout to get a draft. A citizen has the personal right to refuse, and accept the consequences (and usually if you can prove religious reasons against serving, there are no consequences). Any govt. that allowed it's citizens to dodge a draft without consequences would fail. Govt.'s don't like to fail.

In Israel serving in the defense force is mandatory for males of certain age. Certain religious groups have been allowed, by law, to be excluded. The Arabs in Israel are allowed, without overt legal consequences, to not serve. I think about 10% serve. This is not just practical, Israeli Arabs fighting other Arabs is risky, but also considerate, as Arabs should not be forced to fight their own ethnic/religious group. However it results in their being excluded from many benefits afforded to those who have served, so it's a catch 22.

In the US, if a draft occured now it would be interesting to see if certain Arab-Americans would balk. The legal issues would be interesting, and I think once again only a religious reason could be used, not an ethnic one. Obviously in WWII we trusted German Americans to serve and put the Japanese in concentration camps, allowing a few to serve (commendably) near the end.

If I'm ever drafted I'm going down in a hail of gunfire on my front yard.
Cause they are going to have to come and get me... and I'll be ready.

Well,here's how modern conservatvies look at it: If you're a liberal/moderate, then it's wrong for you to dodge the draft

If you're a conservative ,then it's ok for you to dodge the draft.

If I'm ever drafted I'm going down in a hail of gunfire on my front yard.
Cause they are going to have to come and get me... and I'll be ready.

There would have to be something more to die for than this *ahem* meaningless life in order for someone to go so far as to do something like that. :|

This war is not about OUR freedom so what the hell are we fighting for?

This war is not about OUR freedom so what the hell are we fighting for?

Well,we have a president [and vice president] who is[are] in bed with the oil companies.

And Bush wanted to use the presidentcy to get revenge for his dad.

Well,we have a president [and vice president] who is[are] in bed with the oil companies.

And Bush wanted to use the presidentcy to get revenge for his dad.

I know that but everyone keeps reapting over and over "its for our freedom" how clueless. You MUST ALWAYS question autority always

Well,here's how modern conservatvies look at it: If you're a liberal/moderate, then it's wrong for you to dodge the draft

If you're a conservative ,then it's ok for you to dodge the draft.

Yay! We made it to post #17 before someone stepped in with a blantantly partisan comment :nice:

Well, if you're a citizen of a nation, a political body, and you enjoy the said benefits of that society, don't you owe them?

No, you don't owe "society" anything, because who is society? You are. How could you owe yourself something? That doesn't make any sense. And you sure as hell don't owe anything to the politicians who made the decision to go to war and institute a draft in the first place.

I hate it when people go on about how we all owe a debt to "society". There's not such thing as society! We are a collection of individuals. We come and live together, and we enforce law and order, and we all benefit from this arrangement. There's no debt to be paid to anyone. The phrase itself is nothing more than a clever political trick to get you to do something that there is no rational reason for you to do.

I hate it when people go on about how we all owe a debt to "society". There's not such thing as society! We are a collection of individuals. We come and live together, and we enforce law and order, and we all benefit from this arrangement. There's no debt to be paid to anyone. The phrase itself is nothing more than a clever political trick to get you to do something that there is no rational reason for you to do.

Wut wut!

There's not such thing as society! We are a collection of individuals. We come and live together, and we enforce law and order, and we all benefit from this arrangement.
This is society.

There's no debt to be paid to anyone.
The law and order you enjoy everyday is build on the effort of the law-enforcement personel. If no one is willing to keep the law and order in place, draft is the way to force individual to take his/her fair share of responsibility to the society. Those who enjoy law and order without share the responsibility owe those who do.

Wouldnt a group of people that live together and enforce the laws they came up with be a society?

This is society.


The law and order you enjoy everyday is build on the effort of the law-enforcement personel. If no one is willing to keep the law and order in place, draft is the way to force individual to take his/her fair share of responsibility to the society. Those who enjoy law and order without share the responsibility owe those who do.

LOl our legal system is a complete joke

Draft Dodging: Is it right or wrong?
Since there is no draft on in the United States I would say its a moot point. But I think its not a bad thing to avoid being drafted. I mysefl think that the draft is immoral. Nobody should be forced into the army who does not want to be there.

Ehh, blame it on my Asian upbringing. If you have a duty, and I think as citizens we all do, you don't skip out on it. Not that I've been the role-model for upholding honor and duty, but this is a philosophical question.

Me personally? If I got drafted to go and fight in Iraq, I'd be on a plane so fast for Korea it'd make your head spin. =)
Korea is a country with compulsory military service. Sorry. :)

I would add something. I often considered it my greatest act of patriotism to NOT have served in the US Army. I would have given the army so much trouble that in the end they would have booted me out anyway. Seriously, I am not the kind of guy who is cut out for military service... not at all. :)

I live in this country, not just because I was born here, but because I choose too. I the government started a draft and I was chosen, I couls easily find another country that would accept me & my tax dollars.
However, if it wasn't a territorial pissing contest, like the one we have in Iraq, if some country pruposefully declared war on us, and attack us with malice, I may view things differently.

This is society.


The law and order you enjoy everyday is build on the effort of the law-enforcement personel. If no one is willing to keep the law and order in place, draft is the way to force individual to take his/her fair share of responsibility to the society. Those who enjoy law and order without share the responsibility owe those who do.


And the police officers who enforce the law and order I enjoy every day are paid with my tax dollars. And the military that protects me from invaders is paid for with my tax dollars. That's how it works. I don't "owe" them anything.

If there was an invading army poised to strike our homeland, and we needed more soldiers to help defend it, then I would sign right up. But that's really not the case, nor could that possibly happen in today's military climate. We don't need more soldiers to defend our homeland, especially untrained conscripts. Our professional soldiers already have the equipment and the training to face any threat that could come our way. Our Navy and our Air Force can destroy anything that tries to approach us. And the technology to do so was paid for with our tax dollars.

Besides, in my case it's really a moot point because I already work for the military. I wouldn't be drafted, because I already play an irreplacable role in keeping our military technology running properly. And you sure as hell couldn't replace me with a draftee, either.

And the police officers who enforce the law and order I enjoy every day are paid with my tax dollars. And the military that protects me from invaders is paid for with my tax dollars. That's how it works. I don't "owe" them anything.
Because there is people who is willing to do the job. Draft become necessary when there is not enough volunteers.

If there was an invading army poised to strike our homeland, and we needed more soldiers to help defend it, then I would sign right up. But that's really not the case, nor could that possibly happen in today's military climate. We don't need more soldiers to defend our homeland, especially untrained conscripts. Our professional soldiers already have the equipment and the training to face any threat that could come our way. Our Navy and our Air Force can destroy anything that tries to approach us.
Terrorists do attack us, in NY and in Iraq, that is today's war. Soldiers who risk their lifes are needed to fight today's war, not WWII.

Because there is people who is willing to do the job. Draft become necessary when there is not enough volunteers.


And there are not enough volunteers when the cause is not worth risking your life for.


Terrorists do attack us, in NY and in Iraq, that is today's war. Soldiers who risk their lifes are needed to fight today's war, not WWII.

We don't need draftees to fight terrorists. We need better intelligence experts.

And there are not enough volunteers when the cause is not worth risking your life for.
Terrorists may or may not kill millions, is it worth risking someone's life? Most will say no when it is their own life you are asking (which is ok because we value life). Should you dodge draft and let other people take your place? Decent people won't.


We don't need draftees to fight terrorists. We need better intelligence experts.
Tell terrorists to wait until we have 'better' intelligence experts.

Tell terrorists to wait until we have 'better' intelligence experts.

That doesn't even make any sense.

That doesn't even make any sense.
Terrorists wouldn't wait until we have 'better' intellegence, even if intelligence could be 'better'. Soldiers are still need to fight the war today, with whatever intelligence we have. If one day the intelligence is so good that we know exactly which terrorists is doing what and where, yes, we do not need more soldiers. But that day may never come.

Bring democracy and prosperity to middle east is a good move in war on terro. Only when people have hope and a good life, they value life. Iraq situation may not be good, but at least we tried.

Terrorists wouldn't wait until we have 'better' intellegence, even if intelligence could be 'better'. Soldiers are still need to fight the war today, with whatever intelligence we have. If one day the intelligence is so good that we know exactly which terrorists is doing what and where, yes, we do not need more soldiers. But that day may never come.

Bring democracy and prosperity to middle east is a good move in war on terro. Only when people have hope and a good life, they value life. Iraq situation may not be good, but at least we tried.

Soldiers in Iraq aren't fighting the war on terror. Their presence is creating more terrorists for us to fight. It's long past time for them to come home.

I dont recall seeing such an evenly balanced poll here before

I still have my somewhat dog-eared draft card from 1974

Soldiers in Iraq aren't fighting the war on terror. Their presence is creating more terrorists for us to fight. It's long past time for them to come home.
How can you creat terrorists? Will you turn into a terrorist when US is invaded and 50% of the US citizen support the goverment established by invader?

How can you creat terrorists? Will you turn into a terrorist when US is invaded and 50% of the US citizen support the goverment established by invader?
Instilling hate in vengeance-driven people creates terrorism. By continuing to create rifts between cultures, and ravaging other countries as they see fit, they continue to embitter people. The bullying is not solving anything.

How can you creat terrorists? Will you turn into a terrorist when US is invaded and 50% of the US citizen support the goverment established by invader?

Yup.

And quite honestly, I would do a much better job of it than the current terrorists are doing. Their thinking is far less sophisticated than the sort of schemes I could come up with. Good ol' American education has tought me a lot! :nice:

Ehh, blame it on my Asian upbringing. If you have a duty, and I think as citizens we all do, you don't skip out on it. Not that I've been the role-model for upholding honor and duty, but this is a philosophical question.

Me personally? If I got drafted to go and fight in Iraq, I'd be on a plane so fast for Korea it'd make your head spin. =)And if you did leave, I would not let you back.

When you enjoy the freedoms that your country provides, then cut and run when they demand the proper respect in asking for your sacrifice of effort, and yes, maybe your life, then dont expect to be welcomed when you return after refusing to provide the support they asked for (such as this hypothetical as the draft).

My father was a conscientious objector during WWII, but he enlisted and became a radio operator. He never left the states or safe territory, always stationed in the rear with the gear, but he knew he had responsibilities to perform.

And by the way, WWII was FILLED with draft dodgers and those who opposed the war and went AWOL before the ship left port.

Yup.

And quite honestly, I would do a much better job of it than the current terrorists are doing. Their thinking is far less sophisticated than the sort of schemes I could come up with. Good ol' American education has tought me a lot! :nice:
So you will kill innocent people together with 'invader' (who is planning to leave in foreseeable future), even you know you can express your opinion, organize your own party and use your vote to change the goverment without killing?

I still have my somewhat dog-eared draft card from 1974


I threw mine away when the draft ended then [believe it or not] I tried to join [the war was over and I thought I could go to college on the GI Bill].

But I failed the physical [I've been sickly since birth but the physcial showed that I was even sicker than everybody thought I was]

So you will kill innocent people together with 'invader' (who is planning to leave in foreseeable future), even you know you can express your opinion, organize your own party and use your vote to change the goverment without killing?

No, I wouldn't target civilians. But the US government's definition of "terrorist" applies to more people than just those who target civilians.

No, I wouldn't target civilians.
Are you going to target
- democratically elected goverment,
- policeman, fire fighter,
- 'invader' who help maintain order (and ready to go when there is order),
knowing you can change the goverment by voting (instead of killing) when majority agree with your idea?

I'm not gonna turn this into yet another debate about Iraq.

I'm actually kinda surprised about how even the poll is. Apparently, the moral aspects of Draft Dodging are a very ambiguous area. That's great for a debate topic :nice: